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Thread: when safety rules are ignored... when do you walk away?

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    when safety rules are ignored... when do you walk away?

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    This article has first-person accounts from 2 people (brothers) who witnessed multiple extreme safety violations in a firearms class, and the instructor has the attitude of "if I tell you to do something you do it, and check your attitude".

    So... when do you walk away?
    How many times do you allow someone to endanger you?
    How do you call it to their attention?
    What response do you expect?

    (And has anyone here had any experience with this person/company?)

    http://www.ncgunblog.com/2013/06/03/...-to-walk-away/
    C. Robert “Bob” McDowell, the owner and lead instructor for Lethal Weapons Training Academy located in McKean, PA. Bob also owns Bob’s Gun & Indoor Range located in McKean, Pennsylvania.
    While demonstrating the various weapon systems, Bob repeatedly pointed his pistol at the assembled students...
    I called from the back, “Hey, Bob! You just muzzled us 2 times in the past 20 seconds!”
    Bob paused, and in my mind, perhaps hadn’t heard my comment, so I again said, “Bob, you muzzled us 2 times in the past 20 seconds!”
    He continued the class as if I hadn’t said a damned thing.
    He had us gather around to discuss the evolution. Then he turned towards the target and began the firing sequence. At no time did Bob give a courtesy call for “Eyes & Ears”.
    Bob stepped into the group with a locked back .45 auto pistol. While showing the magwell to my father, he was pointing the muzzle of the barrel at my face from a distance of about 2 feet.
    ...
    My brother said in a firm and commanding voice that he’d appreciate it if Bob didn’t point his gun at me.
    Bob told my brother that he needed to check his attitude.

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    Regular Member Mattimusmaximus's Avatar
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    when safety rules are ignored... when do you walk away?

    At the first time he carelessly pointed the firearm at the group I would have left. Demanded my refund, called and talked to his super visor or the police who ever would listen and made sure he retook the safety class before he tried to teach it to others.. That's how accidents happen by allowing room like that for error.


    -Matt of Hillsboro OR-

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    Why would someone pay this man for "training" when he obviously does not know his subject?

    Leave and demand a refund. If he has an ounce of sense, he will give the refund rather than having his name plastered about as being a firearm boob.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Bust his chops in the local media. Bad publicity is the best medicine. Towards the end of the "story" Bob is praised for his work on our RKBA.....who gives a rip what he has done. He sweeps his customers and he deserves to suffer financially. I especially like the limp-wristed NRA instructor who agrees that Bob is a boob but stayed anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    SNIP So... when do you walk away?
    Upon the first post-warning sweep. Or, of course, you can set your own limit.


    The Four Rules are layers of safety. Violating one won't cause an accident. You have to violate what? three at once to have an negligent discharge?

    I'd give one warning. "Finger". "Muzzle." etc. Anybody can have a lapse. But, if repeated, its time to go, or seriously think about leaving. Depends a little on whether its a known empty gun in class, or on the firing line. Or, your discomfort level, I suppose.
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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    A "lapse" is how people can get dead. A gun class is the last place a "lapse" should be occurring.....especially by the instructor.

    Boycott Bob.

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    How is Bad Bob any different from any other self-annointed instructor? Should not all instructors have monitors for content and safety?

    Haven't we OCDO touched on this recently as quality management? Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    when safety rules are ignored... when do you walk away?

    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Upon the first post-warning sweep. Or, of course, you can set your own limit.


    The Four Rules are layers of safety. Violating one won't cause an accident. You have to violate what? three at once to have an negligent discharge?

    I'd give one warning. "Finger". "Muzzle." etc. Anybody can have a lapse. But, if repeated, its time to go, or seriously think about leaving. Depends a little on whether its a known empty gun in class, or on the firing line. Or, your discomfort level, I suppose.
    An excellent standard. After he violate a second rule, don't let him violate a third in your presence.


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    Regular Member Mattimusmaximus's Avatar
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    when safety rules are ignored... when do you walk away?

    After "bob" was asked to please be careful and not point a gun at him... (If I were standing there) and "bob" didn't recognize his mistake and apologized. I would have left. Specially since he was asked several times. Not just for the safety of the students but poor bob would have had some prison time..


    -Matt of Hillsboro OR-

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    Regular Member scouser's Avatar
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    I think the answer is in the question, just need to rearrange the words a little

    when do you walk away?

    when safety rules are ignored !

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    "This post is password protected. To view it please enter your password below:"

    *edit* I checked the home page..apparently he disabled access to the post because of inflamatory comments left..
    Last edited by FlyBoy276; 06-06-2013 at 07:55 PM.

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    I've taught dozens and dozens of classes from basics to advance instructor courses. From 8 year olds to veteran LEOs with decades of training behind them. I preach safety non stop I been told by some students its to much.

    No I don't think its to much.

    I know that when I got done instructing a Glock transition class every student heard many time when you are field stripping your Glock before you pull the trigger double check to see its is unloaded THEN POINT IT IN A SAFE DIRECTION THEN PULL THE TRIGGER.

    Its every bodies responsibility for safety.
    Personal Defensive Solutions professional personal firearms, edge weapons and hands on defensive training and tactics pdsolutions@hotmail.com

    Any and all spelling errors are just to give the spelling Nazis something to do

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    should have pulled out a ballistic shield .... personal protective equipment should be utilized whenever its needed ...

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    Regular Member SFCRetired's Avatar
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    The first time I am swept by a muzzle in a "safety" class by the instructor (or anyone else with no correction from the instructor) is when I get up and walk out. At that point, I will also be demanding a refund if I had to pay.

    By the same token, and based on my military experience, generally the first time I see a safety violation on a hot range, I will call "Cease Fire", point out the violation to the offender, and go from there. If the violation is repeated and the RSO does not act, I am out of there. If I am the RSO, the second offense will see the person asked to leave the firing line.

    There are, of course, safety violations on a hot range that do not allow for the second chance. Pointing the weapon to the rear of the firing line at any time when the range is "hot" is one. Any kind of horse play on a hot range is another.

    FWIW, every time I have run a range, I have run it by the same rules we used in the military. I just don't use the language that I used to use to some of the more intellectually-challenged members of my unit.

    I'm an old man and it is my ambition to get a lot older. If I have to hurt feelings to do it, I won't hesitate.
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