when safety rules are ignored... when do you walk away?

.

This article has first-person accounts from 2 people (brothers) who witnessed multiple extreme safety violations in a firearms class, and the instructor has the attitude of "if I tell you to do something you do it, and check your attitude".

So... when do you walk away?
How many times do you allow someone to endanger you?
How do you call it to their attention?
What response do you expect?

(And has anyone here had any experience with this person/company?)

http://www.ncgunblog.com/2013/06/03/it-is-really-hard-to-walk-away/

C. Robert “Bob” McDowell, the owner and lead instructor for Lethal Weapons Training Academy located in McKean, PA. Bob also owns Bob’s Gun & Indoor Range located in McKean, Pennsylvania.

Click to expand...

While demonstrating the various weapon systems, Bob repeatedly pointed his pistol at the assembled students...
I called from the back, “Hey, Bob! You just muzzled us 2 times in the past 20 seconds!”
Bob paused, and in my mind, perhaps hadn’t heard my comment, so I again said, “Bob, you muzzled us 2 times in the past 20 seconds!”
He continued the class as if I hadn’t said a damned thing.

Click to expand...

He had us gather around to discuss the evolution. Then he turned towards the target and began the firing sequence. At no time did Bob give a courtesy call for “Eyes & Ears”.

Click to expand...

Bob stepped into the group with a locked back .45 auto pistol. While showing the magwell to my father, he was pointing the muzzle of the barrel at my face from a distance of about 2 feet.
...
My brother said in a firm and commanding voice that he’d appreciate it if Bob didn’t point his gun at me.
Bob told my brother that he needed to check his attitude.

Click to expand...

At the first time he carelessly pointed the firearm at the group I would have left. Demanded my refund, called and talked to his super visor or the police who ever would listen and made sure he retook the safety class before he tried to teach it to others.. That's how accidents happen by allowing room like that for error.


-Matt of Hillsboro OR-

Why would someone pay this man for "training" when he obviously does not know his subject?

Leave and demand a refund. If he has an ounce of sense, he will give the refund rather than having his name plastered about as being a firearm boob.

Bust his chops in the local media. Bad publicity is the best medicine. Towards the end of the "story" Bob is praised for his work on our RKBA.....who gives a rip what he has done. He sweeps his customers and he deserves to suffer financially. I especially like the limp-wristed NRA instructor who agrees that Bob is a boob but stayed anyway.

MKEgal said:

SNIP So... when do you walk away?

Click to expand...

Upon the first post-warning sweep. Or, of course, you can set your own limit.


The Four Rules are layers of safety. Violating one won't cause an accident. You have to violate what? three at once to have an negligent discharge?

I'd give one warning. "Finger". "Muzzle." etc. Anybody can have a lapse. But, if repeated, its time to go, or seriously think about leaving. Depends a little on whether its a known empty gun in class, or on the firing line. Or, your discomfort level, I suppose.

A "lapse" is how people can get dead. A gun class is the last place a "lapse" should be occurring.....especially by the instructor.

Boycott Bob.

Citizen said:

Upon the first post-warning sweep. Or, of course, you can set your own limit.


The Four Rules are layers of safety. Violating one won't cause an accident. You have to violate what? three at once to have an negligent discharge?

I'd give one warning. "Finger". "Muzzle." etc. Anybody can have a lapse. But, if repeated, its time to go, or seriously think about leaving. Depends a little on whether its a known empty gun in class, or on the firing line. Or, your discomfort level, I suppose.

Click to expand...

An excellent standard. After he violate a second rule, don't let him violate a third in your presence.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

<o>

After "bob" was asked to please be careful and not point a gun at him... (If I were standing there) and "bob" didn't recognize his mistake and apologized. I would have left. Specially since he was asked several times. Not just for the safety of the students but poor bob would have had some prison time..


-Matt of Hillsboro OR-

So... when do you walk away?

I don't know, I'd have to be there.


How many times do you allow someone to endanger you?

Allow? Again, I'd have to be there.


How do you call it to their attention?

Ask them not to point it at me, then they uasally say it's not loaded. Then I feel a pain in my leg. Luckally it was a bb gun. Between the BB bouncing off the walls in Terry's garage, them finally realizing I was hit after seeing my leg after accusing me of faking it, and all the sorrys, I kept hearing the famious last words "stop your whining, it's not loaded"


What response do you expect?

Probibly something about it not being loaded.



(And has anyone here had any experience with this person/company?)


This person/company? Oh, I don't know. At the thrift store with someone smoking a ciggerette, at Kroger with someone smoking a ciggerette, at work, Just about every place with a parking lot tring to enter or exit my car with someone smoking a ciggerette, But it's uasally "I'm clear over here" instead of "it's not loaded" The world is full of umm, people like that, after 40 years I'm still getting used to it.

I think the answer is in the question, just need to rearrange the words a little

when do you walk away?

when safety rules are ignored !

MKEgal said:

http://www.ncgunblog.com/2013/06/03/it-is-really-hard-to-walk-away/

Click to expand...

"This post is password protected. To view it please enter your password below:"

*edit* I checked the home page..apparently he disabled access to the post because of inflamatory comments left..

I've taught dozens and dozens of classes from basics to advance instructor courses. From 8 year olds to veteran LEOs with decades of training behind them. I preach safety non stop I been told by some students its to much.

No I don't think its to much.

I know that when I got done instructing a Glock transition class every student heard many time when you are field stripping your Glock before you pull the trigger double check to see its is unloaded THEN POINT IT IN A SAFE DIRECTION THEN PULL THE TRIGGER.

Its every bodies responsibility for safety.

should have pulled out a ballistic shield .... personal protective equipment should be utilized whenever its needed ...

The first time I am swept by a muzzle in a "safety" class by the instructor (or anyone else with no correction from the instructor) is when I get up and walk out. At that point, I will also be demanding a refund if I had to pay.

By the same token, and based on my military experience, generally the first time I see a safety violation on a hot range, I will call "Cease Fire", point out the violation to the offender, and go from there. If the violation is repeated and the RSO does not act, I am out of there. If I am the RSO, the second offense will see the person asked to leave the firing line.

There are, of course, safety violations on a hot range that do not allow for the second chance. Pointing the weapon to the rear of the firing line at any time when the range is "hot" is one. Any kind of horse play on a hot range is another.

FWIW, every time I have run a range, I have run it by the same rules we used in the military. I just don't use the language that I used to use to some of the more intellectually-challenged members of my unit.:lol:

I'm an old man and it is my ambition to get a lot older. If I have to hurt feelings to do it, I won't hesitate.