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Thread: Any LEOs hanging around here ?

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    Any LEOs hanging around here ?

    I know that LEOs are not lawyers or usually do not have a law background, but why are there so many (you tube) situations where the police are completely unaware of the law or completely misinterpret the law?

    Video after video I am seeing people harassed, arrested, held at gunpoint and more, because the officer did not know the law. Specifically I am talking about open carry. In states where open carry is completely legal, why do police not know that it is legal? For example I recently watched a video where the officer was totally convinced that when open carrying, it was actually considered concealed carry because the holster concealed a portion of the hand gun.

    In addition, they do not seem to understand that (where open is legal and where your do not have to produce id when there is no presumption of illegal activity) you do not have to produce id when no crime has been committed.

    I have read (don't know the actually truth) that police are able to lie about the law because undercover officers are allowed to lie, and this transfers over to regular police.

    Matt

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    I am not a LEO. But I might have enough experience (not just as told in Ferry Tales) to suggest an answer.

    Cops (prison guards/private security/crossing guards/principals and teachers) have as a major component of their job duties the responsibility to see that people do what they are supposed to do. Now "what they are supposed to do" is almost the complete oppposite of "what you are not allowed to do".

    Laws are written to list what you are not allowed to do. Case law is just commentary on the various ways someone's actions can be construed as doing what they are not allowed to do. Neither statutes nor case law say anything about what you are supposed to do.

    In order to see that people do what they are supposed to do, the people need to believe (to a varying degree) that cops, etc. have authority - the means to force you to do something in spite of the fact that you may not want to do it. Let'sjust deal with cops for a second, OK? They have been granted to power of arrest, and of employing a variety of levels of force up to and including deadly force (with some restrictions, of course) to cause you to comply with their authority. But making people "comply" sounds so bad and evil, so they look at it sideways and instead of saying you refused to comply with their authority to do/not do something they say that you do not "respect" their authority.

    That's strange because my 16+ years working with criminals has taught me, if nothing else, that as a class they very much respect the authority of a cop. They respect it so much that theu go out of their way to avoid having to get involved with a cop's authority.

    Some cops believe that they are like parents and that the rest of the population (well, maybe excepting judges and attorneys) are like children. I do not care which social theory/philosopht you cotton to - the only way for a parent to parent is by being demanding compliance with their authority. So these "some cops" believe that in order to do their job they must demand absolute compliance with their authority. They seem to have been absent the day when it was explained that as the child grows up the parent needs to demand compliance with fewer and fewer things and allow the child to start making their own decisions about what to do and what not to do. These "some cops" seem to be stuck at believing even the slightest non-compliance will cause total chaos, global anarchy, and the end of civilization as they know it.

    When a child asks "Why?" when the parent tells them to do something/not do something the parent can either take time out from what they really want to be doing and engage in a philosophical discussion with someone who has less comprehension power than a door mat, or they can invoke The BISS Doctrine*. Most often even the parents who start out with a philosophical discussion end up invoking The Biss Doctrine. It is so much easier, it gets what you want done when and how you want it done, or failing either of those results gives the parent the excuse to use force (yelling, stomping their feet, holding their breath till they turn blue, taking away priveleges, or even corporal punishment) in order to command compliance with their authority. Coips know this and some cops seem to want to avoid all the histrionics and get straight to the place where you do comply with their authority.

    Now you know.

    stay safe.

    * The BISS Doctrine (every parent's fall-back): Because I Said So!
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  3. #3
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    It is important to differentiate what a particular cop knows vs. what that particular cop is required to do as a result of department policy. A cop is a citizen doing a job and likely desires to retain his job. True, some cops bring their biases to their job and the hapless law abiding citizen is subject to those biases. This is where the courts should be used to gain a redress of wrongs. I am encouraged that the courts are siding with the hapless citizen more often these days. The citizenry needs to work to change the laws and the attitudes of the top cops in their jurisdictions. Given the trend in the several states our 2A right is becoming less infringed, if you will.

    I believe it is the rare exception that any particular cop does not know that OC is not unlawful where that right has not been infringed. As I stated earlier, look to top cops and their possibly agenda driven policies.

    I know a few cops and they risk their employment status if they act on their belief system regarding liberty and specifically the 2a in a jurisdiction that does not recognize our 2A right. Each cop should be "judged" on his own acts. Every LEA is fair game for legitimate criticism. LEAs are not citizens. They are government bureaucracies and by definition are anti-liberty and anti-citizen.

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    I would also be curious in regards to just how many hours a police recruit spends in the police academy being taught and studying the US Constitution and or your states Constitution?

    TIA

    Best regards

    CCJ

  5. #5
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    South Carolina is not a open carry state. There are exceptions that permit OC while engaged in certain activities.

    SECTION 16-23-20. Unlawful carrying of handgun; exceptions

    http://www.sled.sc.gov/SCStateGunLaw...x?MenuID=CWP#1

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    Interesting, zero study about the Constitution.

    CCJ

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    I was a LEO for a couple years in NV and went to an academy in 2009. Constitutional law was paired up with RAS/PC instruction in an 8 hour class. I was an OCer before the academy, so I definitely noticed that the instructor made special mention to OC. The example he used was along the lines of "You can't just grab somebody's $800 Kimber out of their holster and throw it on the gravel without a damn good reason. It's gonna get all scratched up and they're gonna come looking for answers and the department will have to pay for it. Ultimately though, you'll be the one paying for it, if you know what I mean."

    That's Northern Nevada though, and NNV awesome

  8. #8
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Technically, cops do not need to study the constitution, they will not be tasked to enforce the constitution. Their knowledge on a specific laws constitutionality is not a requirement of employment. In fact, a cop judging a law unconstitutional and thus acting on that judgement could very well end a very promising career in LE.

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    So the term " Its not about being right, Its about doing right" DOES NOT apply to LEO?

    CCJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by joanie View Post
    ...They know it's legal, they just don't like it. So they will come up with anything they can to get you on...
    If by "it" you mean OC, then you are in error here. Many, in fact, do not know that OC is legal. Both of my encounters in Montgomery that resulted in my being detained were because the officer(s) thought it was unlawful for me to carry in the manner I did where I did. They were wrong.

    A certain retired police officer I keep mentioning has routinely proved that he was, as a police officer, grossly ignorant of the law (and continues in that ignorance, constantly telling folks blatant falsehoods about the law). Some of the stories he relates would cause many around here to refer to him as a "thug cop." Even I, who almost never uses that term, would not argue its application in this case. However, still, at the bottom of it all, was that officer's deep and pervasive ignorance of the law.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Cops have certain powers, certain requirements and among them is not protecting you (or any individual), or serving anyone except their commander.

    They have a great knowledge of street criminal affairs, great knowledge of how to use the system, great knowledge of what will get them in trouble.

    Their job is to arrest people. Some cops, if they can't arrest someone, it's usually because they are unmotivated or aren't trying very hard that day, but it's their job one.

    One might even suggest that a certain amount of plausibly deniable ignorance of a law works in their favor.

    Why they do it, I don't know. They certainly seem to have quotas. It doesn't seem to be because of poor pay (as we've seen in that thread).

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    COMMENTS REMOVED BY ADMINISTRATOR: LEO Bashing
    Last edited by John Pierce; 06-06-2013 at 10:31 AM.

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    Any LEOs hanging around here ?
    Oh, sure. There are a few self-acknowledged cops registered as forum members. A few more ex-cops. Generally, they're pretty supportive of rights, especially the 2A.

    The whiner-cops, the cops who come here to tell us how things are under the pretext of building bridges, those with a shaky grasp of rights, and those with lots of distorted ideas of rights don't last long. They usually get the unvarnished straight scoop pretty quick without sugar coating, their specious explanations exposed fast. And, they get tired of dealing with people who don't buy their self-serving or specious arguments.

    Then there are the monitors. Haven't heard much about them for a long time, but I'd be very surprised if cops who are antagonistic to OC don't peek in from time to time to see what we're up to. I'd be really surprised if we weren't checked on from time to time. Anytime there is a youtube video showing a cop vs OCer, I'll bet some cops track back to this forum to see what's going on. Same for any lawsuits or formal complaints. I saw one time that a cop sought intel from colleagues in other departments just because a Freedom of Information request landed--if he had any idea there was a forum, I'm betting he was here checking things out.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Lightbulb

    I do not mean this in a "bashing" way at all, but I think what I am about to relay pretty much somes up the problem with police & "law-abiding citizens who know the law". I know several police officers some of them retired and some still working. One is a family member. I asked them all if they could recite their oath from memory, and as I feared none of them could completely. This confirmed what I have always been afraid of. They take the oath to obtain the power, once the power is obtained, the oath becomes secondary to them. This should never be the case! As we do with school childern and the pledge of allegiance "Peace officers" should be required to recite their oaths daily. The point being that they need to be conditioned to understand their powers are to be used to uphold (1) The Constitution of the United States. (2) The State Constitution in which they serve. (3) Local laws of the city/township, in that order.

    When a officer imposes their will on a law-abiding citizen in lieu of the law, they are the criminal. Somewhere, some how many of today's police have forgotten this or simply don't care. The days of having "To serve & protect" on the side of police cars have long vanished. Now we have "Law Enforcement Units" and "commanders" who refer to officers as "Their Troops". Something is very, very wrong with this train wreck of thought.
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    The only point of my post was to refute your generalization that cops know the law. I see that you acknowledge that the generalization is not true.

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    An IQ of 105 is slightly above average (but likely within the testing error). It is not low average. Low average would be below 100. If you take into account the testing error, it would be improper to say that anyone was low average unless they were (depending on the instrument) at least five to ten points below the mean of 100.

    About 2/3 of the population falls between IQs of 85 to 115.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by P-51Mustang View Post
    ...why are there so many ... situations where the police are completely unaware of the law or completely misinterpret the law?...
    Cops watch TV.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Technically, cops do not need to study the constitution, they will not be tasked to enforce the constitution. Their knowledge on a specific laws constitutionality is not a requirement of employment. In fact, a cop judging a law unconstitutional and thus acting on that judgement could very well end a very promising career in LE.
    Well they should since many cops take an oath to the constitution (federal and state), and they being part of government are supposed to be constitutionally restricted by it.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Well they should since many cops take an oath to the constitution (federal and state), and they being part of government are supposed to be constitutionally restricted by it.
    No arguments from on this. I merely state the current reality. If every cop took his oath seriously then the need for a OCDO would be mitigated.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Collective bargaining agreement(s) may amend the above to a certain extent.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Collective bargaining agreement(s) may amend the above to a certain extent.
    Police officers take risks and suffer inconveniences to protect the lives, defend civil liberties, secure the safety of fellow citizens, and they endure such risks and tolerate such inconveniences on behalf of strangers. Consequently, police work is one of the more noble and selfless occupations in society. Making a difference in the quality of life is an opportunity that policing provides, and few other professions can offer.

    http://www.theiacp.org/PoliceService...0/Default.aspx
    Whoes quality of life? There is not one single instance, that I can recall, where LE improved my quality of life. I can think of one or two instances where my quality of life has been degraded as a direct result of LE.

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    As a retire LEO I saw bad practices as more of a bad management and bad justice thing.

    As we know open carry always has been legal in Wis. But take Milwaukee PD with the blessing of management and the
    District Attorneys office. The street cops had a free hand in harassing open carriers.

    If management would have stood up and said no you can't don that its legal it would have stopped. Or if the district attorney would have declined to prosecute it would have stopped.

    I'll go further up the food chain to the States Attorney General or even the Governor during the Doyle rain as AG or governor if he would have stood up for what was right it would have stopped.

    But very few were willing to make the stand. Even are supreme court didn't stand up and do the right thing. The then chief justice went out of her way to make sure she could limit the right even with a very strong amendment that passed with something like 79 percent of voters.

    When you have the whole system backing failed policy/unconstitutional policies. It is very hard for the guy at the bottom to buck it.

    I was well known in the Departments I worked in as a fundamental rights officer.
    I was oath keeper long before there was a group calling themselves that.

    I won several bets with fellow officers that said open carry was not legal. I told them show me the statute that makes it illegal. Of course they couldn't there was none.

    Then there was the old fall back well we well just charge them with DC.

    But until we had backing from the AG. Departments, officers and the courts that wanted to got away with it. A sad state of affairs.

    It pains me to no end to see unconstitutional laws and practices being enforced just because from the top down they have been accepted.

    A lot of people want to jump on the street cop( Yes they do have some responsibility) but remember all the governors, senators, representatives, judges, city councils members, mayors, chiefs of police that push these unconstitutional laws.

    There are many from law makers, courts and every body on down the ladder that have an agenda to destroy our right to bear arms.
    Last edited by Firearms Iinstuctor; 06-06-2013 at 11:05 AM.
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  23. #23
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Beat cops tow the line because towing the line pays the rent.....oath? What oath?

    LEOs, currently active LEOs, even the self described 2A supporters, don't hang around here because active LEOs like to pay the rent. So, the question that is routinely asked "So, what are you going to do about it, you being on the inside?" never receives a response.

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    [QUOTE=Nightmare;1946897]LOL Old/senior enough to "retire" but not as management and not responsible enough to share the load! The Nuremberg Defence.[/QUOTE

    You have no clue.

    I'll put my defense and record of defending the 2nd up against most others.

    Of course are those that have done more.

    But their are more then a few people who are glad I was on the scene when They were caught breaking firearms and other weapons laws.

    Nightmare have you saved some one from being arrested and going to jail. Have you stood up in front of LEOs many times and told them about the unconstitutional firearm laws.

    Have you told sheriffs, police chiefs, state patrol superintendents, captains, lieutenants, sergeants, ATF/FBI and other Federal agents, DAs, ADA,AAGs, cornered anti gun politicians as a working LEO and told them that federal and state gun laws are unconstitutional.

    Have you trained hundreds of LEOs, local, state and federal and told them most firearm laws are unconstitutional and that they should live up to their oath office.

    Well I have I don't need, The Nuremberg Defense

    I'll stand on my record any time.
    Last edited by Firearms Iinstuctor; 06-06-2013 at 12:26 PM.
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  25. #25
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    LOL Old/senior enough to "retire" but not as management and not responsible enough to share the load! The Nuremberg Defence.
    You have no clue.

    I'll put my defense and record of defending the 2nd up against most others.

    Of course are those that have done more.

    But their are more then a few people who are glad I was on the scene when They were caught breaking firearms and other weapons laws.

    Nightmare have you saved some one from being arrested and going to jail. Have you stood up in front of LEOs many times and told them about the unconstitutional firearm laws.

    Have you told sheriffs, police chiefs, state patrol superintendents, captains, lieutenants, sergeants, ATF/FBI and other Federal agents, DAs, ADA,AAGs, cornered anti gun politicians as a working LEO and told them that federal and state gun laws are unconstitutional.

    Have you trained hundreds of LEOs, local, state and federal and told them most firearm laws are unconstitutional and that they should live up to their oath office.

    Well I have I don't need, The Nuremberg Defense

    I'll stand on my record any time.
    +1 to you Sir. I look forward to discovering active duty LEOs with your perspective and common sense approach to LE.

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