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Thread: Had to draw today!

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    Had to draw today!

    So today was an interesting day: There was a 2 on 1 beating going on in my yard, so I went to look to see what was going on. It LOOKED like one of the people had been using something as a weapon, so I went back inside and grabbed my gun, then went back outside and ordered them off my lawn. Luckily there was another gentleman that knew the beaten girl, and took her to get treatment. The other 2 people fled, and I think the cops caught up with them later. Did I do anything wrong in this instance, or was I justified? I know that the Stand Your Ground Statute states that I can defend others if there was a life threatening act (which is what I thought was happening due to one of the assailants apparently having something in their hand while punching) so I just want to get clarified if what I did was considered justified?

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    Regular Member Mattimusmaximus's Avatar
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    Had to draw today!

    Clearly justified and if was on the jury for your case I'd say only thing he is guilty of is saving a life


    -Matt of Hillsboro OR-

  3. #3
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tannerwaterbury View Post
    So today was an interesting day: There was a 2 on 1 beating going on in my yard, so I went to look to see what was going on. It LOOKED like one of the people had been using something as a weapon, so I went back inside and grabbed my gun, then went back outside and ordered them off my lawn. Luckily there was another gentleman that knew the beaten girl, and took her to get treatment. The other 2 people fled, and I think the cops caught up with them later. Did I do anything wrong in this instance, or was I justified? I know that the Stand Your Ground Statute states that I can defend others if there was a life threatening act (which is what I thought was happening due to one of the assailants apparently having something in their hand while punching) so I just want to get clarified if what I did was considered justified?
    Not enough information to form an opinion.
    We would have to assume the fight was between (school) girls and your physical condition is unknown to me, was there or was there not a weapon, were there witness?
    Any use of force must be necessary and reasonable as viewed by a reasonable prudent person.

    It is normal to question yourself afterwards as your brain tries to deal with justifying your actions.
    One needs to articulate the ability, opportunity and jeopardy and how it all came together at that point in time to create an imminent threat of life or limb.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    Not enough information to form an opinion.
    We would have to assume the fight was between (school) girls and your physical condition is unknown to me, was there or was there not a weapon, were there witness?
    Any use of force must be necessary and reasonable as viewed by a reasonable prudent person.

    It is normal to question yourself afterwards as your brain tries to deal with justifying your actions.
    One needs to articulate the ability, opportunity and jeopardy and how it all came together at that point in time to create an imminent threat of life or limb.
    No, not school girls, definitely in their 20's at the least. But it definitely wasn't a FIGHT as it was a beating by 2 "women" (I use that term lightly) and one appeared to of had something in the hand. That girl who was getting bear was pretty bloodied too, so it seemed as though it may have been something other than fists to intensify the punch. First time it's happened in my yard. I swear too, the area is becoming more and more unsafe. I sure as hell didn't want her hurt anymore, and those girls and their one guy friend scattered (he wasn't involved, just stood around). I was shaking afterwords too... I NEVER want to do that again.
    Last edited by tannerwaterbury; 06-07-2013 at 09:07 AM.

  5. #5
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    On your property. 2 on 1. You thought one hand a weapon. Felony assault on another citizen? What does the law in WA on the use of lethal force say about that situation.

    They were assaulting another citizen on your property, you go out to "investigate" and the possibility that they may attack you is a reasonable belief.....if I were on the jury.

  6. #6
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    No you should have called the cops and hope they don't kill the other girl by time they get there......not!

    Sounds like you did the right thing. Hopefully some overzealous cops or prosecutor don't decide to harass you for it.

    An acquaintance of mine was arrested for thwarting a crime in her house, the police refused to let her lock up and she came home to another burglary in progress.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tannerwaterbury View Post
    No, not school girls, definitely in their 20's at the least. But it definitely wasn't a FIGHT as it was a beating by 2 "women" (I use that term lightly) and one appeared to of had something in the hand. That girl who was getting bear was pretty bloodied too, so it seemed as though it may have been something other than fists to intensify the punch. First time it's happened in my yard. I swear too, the area is becoming more and more unsafe. I sure as hell didn't want her hurt anymore, and those girls and their one guy friend scattered (he wasn't involved, just stood around). I was shaking afterwords too... I NEVER want to do that again.
    That is what I was looking for.
    The shaking afterwards is pure adrenalin, and supports the fact you were in fear of her life or limb.
    Last edited by BigDave; 06-07-2013 at 10:16 AM.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    The OP's dilemma could have been nada if the law is how it should be: you can shoot anyone on your land ...

    should push for this to be the law .... its simple and everyone would stay off folks' property they know that they are not welcome upon.

    appears as if the girls were discussing going back on the gold standard ... the discussion just got out of hand

  10. #10
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    The OP's dilemma could have been nada if the law is how it should be: you can shoot anyone on your land ...

    should push for this to be the law .... its simple and everyone would stay off folks' property they know that they are not welcome upon.

    appears as if the girls were discussing going back on the gold standard ... the discussion just got out of hand
    Nah too many mistakes to be made, trespassing is a better route...
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  11. #11
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    Totally Justified

    You did the right thing. And it wouldn't matter if they were teens or twenties. Teens can kill just as easily as adults and they often use weapons too.

  12. #12
    Activist Member golddigger14s's Avatar
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    Should have called 911 also to CYA, in case the assailants, or a neighbor not knowing what was going on saw you with the gun as the aggressor. From all I've read, "he who calls 911" wins. Also you could give descriptions of the people involved. A lot of people involved in gang stuff won't call the cops even if they are on the receiving end.
    "The beauty of the Second Amenment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." Thomas Jefferson
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    Quote Originally Posted by golddigger14s View Post
    Should have called 911 also to CYA, in case the assailants, or a neighbor not knowing what was going on saw you with the gun as the aggressor. From all I've read, "he who calls 911" wins. Also you could give descriptions of the people involved. A lot of people involved in gang stuff won't call the cops even if they are on the receiving end.
    It was pretty clear that I was NOT the aggressor, there were at LEAST 2 witnesses who came to intervene, not to mention a truck where the driver was holding its horn without pause, which is what alerted me to the whole thing anyways. The one gentleman really wasn't doing much in terms of intervention, but he told me to put the gun away, which I told HIM to get them off my damned lawn. Really... some people with the nerve to assume everything was alright and allowing the beating to continue really sickens me.

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tannerwaterbury View Post
    So today was an interesting day: There was a 2 on 1 beating going on in my yard, so I went to look to see what was going on. It LOOKED like one of the people had been using something as a weapon, so I went back inside and grabbed my gun, then went back outside and ordered them off my lawn. Luckily there was another gentleman that knew the beaten girl, and took her to get treatment. The other 2 people fled, and I think the cops caught up with them later. Did I do anything wrong in this instance, or was I justified? I know that the Stand Your Ground Statute states that I can defend others if there was a life threatening act (which is what I thought was happening due to one of the assailants apparently having something in their hand while punching) so I just want to get clarified if what I did was considered justified?
    Quote Originally Posted by tannerwaterbury View Post
    No, not school girls, definitely in their 20's at the least. But it definitely wasn't a FIGHT as it was a beating by 2 "women" (I use that term lightly) and one appeared to of had something in the hand. That girl who was getting bear was pretty bloodied too, so it seemed as though it may have been something other than fists to intensify the punch. First time it's happened in my yard. I swear too, the area is becoming more and more unsafe. I sure as hell didn't want her hurt anymore, and those girls and their one guy friend scattered (he wasn't involved, just stood around). I was shaking afterwords too... I NEVER want to do that again.
    Quote Originally Posted by tannerwaterbury View Post
    It was pretty clear that I was NOT the aggressor, there were at LEAST 2 witnesses who came to intervene, not to mention a truck where the driver was holding its horn without pause, which is what alerted me to the whole thing anyways. The one gentleman really wasn't doing much in terms of intervention, but he told me to put the gun away, which I told HIM to get them off my damned lawn. Really... some people with the nerve to assume everything was alright and allowing the beating to continue really sickens me.
    Your story keeps evolving and growing and this in itself tends to bring your recall of events suspect to the actual facts. One needs to be thorough in articulating such an encounter.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tannerwaterbury View Post
    It was pretty clear that I was NOT the aggressor, there were at LEAST 2 witnesses who came to intervene, not to mention a truck where the driver was holding its horn without pause, which is what alerted me to the whole thing anyways. The one gentleman really wasn't doing much in terms of intervention, but he told me to put the gun away, which I told HIM to get them off my damned lawn. Really... some people with the nerve to assume everything was alright and allowing the beating to continue really sickens me.
    To me it's the height of folly to insert yourself into a situation that you are not a part of, that does not include or affect your loved ones AND you brought a firearm into the mix on the assumption there was a weapon (?) being used. You should have called 911 and stayed the heck out of it. You don't know the people (and they can turn on you). You don't know the situation and next thing you know they're accusing YOU of something. Stupid, stupid, stupid. Glad you're safe but stay out of other people's fights. Being on your property is a trespassing problem at most.

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    Campaign Veteran slapmonkay's Avatar
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    You may not want to answer these, at least on a public forum:
    Did you draw and point the gun at anyone?
    Were you just holding it in hand?
    Did you make any threatening gestures or words?
    Did you say you had a gun or did they just notice?

    If it were me, I probably would have just left my gun holstered and taken a stance a good distance away and yelled something to the effect of

    'Police are on the way, Your on my property get off'. If that was not enough bring attention to my holstered firearm, just yelling 'GUN!' or something likely is enough to get them to look up. I like to stay away from phrases like 'I got a gun'. If that did not help, hopefully the police be there shortly. I wouldn't interject myself any further than that unless it was absolutely needed.

    Something that was not yet mentioned, If the situation warranted you drawing a weapon, you need to make sure you call 911 at the earliest.
    Last edited by slapmonkay; 06-07-2013 at 02:03 PM.
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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    No doubt something needed to be done to stop the threat.
    One must assess to what degree of force will stop the threat that is reasonable and not more then necessary.
    Always contact law enforcement when you draw your weapon to stop a threat! If it was serious enough to unholster then it's serious enough g to make the call to 911, why some ask? Witnesses will become aware of the incident and will view it differently then you or another and when law enforcement is called our become involved it would be a greater benefit to you too have them here it from you first then trying to react to what others reported.
    I am not looking to be critical of your actions but it is something you need to keep in mind.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

  18. #18
    Activist Member golddigger14s's Avatar
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    I know you are not the aggressor, you know you are not the aggressor, but the cops are just going to hear "there was this guy with a gun!". So like I said, call 911 to CYA.
    "The beauty of the Second Amenment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." Thomas Jefferson
    "Evil often triumphs, but never conquers." Joseph Roux
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    Regular Member gsx1138's Avatar
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    Even though monday morning quarterbacking is expected on a forum I won't. Sounds like you did the right thing. 2 on 1 is a disparity of force and throw in a possible weapon your reaction is spot on. Assuming you've been completely honest in this discussion.
    "Think lightly of yourself and deeply of the world." ~ Musashi

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapmonkay View Post
    If it were me, I probably would have just left my gun holstered and taken a stance a good distance away and yelled something to the effect of
    +1

    Come on, folks. If you've been around this forum long enough there's no excuse for anything but full-time, every day open carry (EDOC).

    There's no reason to be "grabbing" your gun. First of all, that means you didn't have it on you (fail!). Second of all, that means you're holding it the whole time. There's a thread from just last week about a guy who was shot and killed by the police on his own property for walking outside holding a gun. He was the one who called them, too. (Odds are pretty damn good a holster would have saved his life.)

    I agree it's reasonable to attempt to stop a fight, especially when it's on your own property (as opposed to the "call 911 and wait" approach). However, a holstered handgun and the control voice can be all it takes without endangering you legally. Walking outside holding a gun is asking for trouble, IMO.
    Last edited by marshaul; 06-07-2013 at 05:09 PM.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsx1138 View Post
    Even though monday morning quarterbacking is expected on a forum I won't. Sounds like you did the right thing. 2 on 1 is a disparity of force and throw in a possible weapon your reaction is spot on. Assuming you've been completely honest in this discussion.
    You might be confused. 2 on 1 disparity of force being a justification for shooting unarmed people is difficult to prove if it's AGAINST YOURSELF. Two on 1 in a wrestling match against someone else, unless there's clear evidence of risk of grievous bodily harm does not generally justify shooting someone who is attacking a third party (not yourself or a loved one). Besides, who is the OP going to shoot? How does he know who is in the wrong. Maybe the single person just committed a felony?

    Check your state laws to be sure.
    Last edited by Maverick9; 06-07-2013 at 07:56 PM.

  22. #22
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    You might be confused. 2 on 1 disparity of force being a justification for shooting unarmed people is difficult to prove if it's AGAINST YOURSELF. Two on 1 in a wrestling match against someone else, unless there's clear evidence of risk of grievous bodily harm does not generally justify shooting someone who is attacking a third party (not yourself or a loved one). Besides, who is the OP going to shoot? How does he know who is in the wrong. Maybe the single person just committed a felony?

    Check your state laws to be sure.
    You bring up a very good point, how to tell if you are defending the right person ? I feel one can determine this by observing who is acting in a self defensive position? Our laws provide for self defense until such time the threat is no longer present.
    One can be the victim to begin with and become the aggressor in the same incident, avoid becoming the attacker.
    Last edited by BigDave; 06-07-2013 at 08:23 PM.

  23. #23
    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    To me it's the height of folly to insert yourself into a situation that you are not a part of, that does not include or affect your loved ones AND you brought a firearm into the mix on the assumption there was a weapon (?) being used. You should have called 911 and stayed the heck out of it. You don't know the people (and they can turn on you). You don't know the situation and next thing you know they're accusing YOU of something. Stupid, stupid, stupid. Glad you're safe but stay out of other people's fights. Being on your property is a trespassing problem at most.
    You do not think you have a responsibility to assist in protecting the life of a stranger? Sad, sad, sad. now Go read RCW 9A.16 110

  24. #24
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapmonkay View Post

    'Police are on the way, Your on my property get off'. If that was not enough bring attention to my holstered firearm, just yelling 'GUN!' or something likely is enough to get them to look up. I like to stay away from phrases like 'I got a gun'. If that did not help, hopefully the police be there shortly. I wouldn't interject myself any further than that unless it was absolutely needed.

    Something that was not yet mentioned, If the situation warranted you drawing a weapon, you need to make sure you call 911 at the earliest.
    Really? I gave you more credit than that.

    You're*

    Yelling "gun" is not the brightest move either. Having it upholstered and ready would be more prudent.

    While calling 911 would be a great idea the assailants fled the scene so getting them caught is not likely. Calling the 911 afterwards though would help keep the OP out of prison.

    It was also in the OP's yard, so the home owner's insurance may have had to pay for the victim's medical bill if the OP did not intervene.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    You might be confused. 2 on 1 disparity of force being a justification for shooting unarmed people is difficult to prove if it's AGAINST YOURSELF. Two on 1 in a wrestling match against someone else, unless there's clear evidence of risk of grievous bodily harm does not generally justify shooting someone who is attacking a third party (not yourself or a loved one). Besides, who is the OP going to shoot? How does he know who is in the wrong. Maybe the single person just committed a felony?

    Check your state laws to be sure.
    RCW 9A.16.020
    Use of force When lawful.


    The use, attempt, or offer to use force upon or toward the person of another is not unlawful in the following cases:

    (1) Whenever necessarily used by a public officer in the performance of a legal duty, or a person assisting the officer and acting under the officer's direction;

    (2) Whenever necessarily used by a person arresting one who has committed a felony and delivering him or her to a public officer competent to receive him or her into custody;

    (3) Whenever used by a party about to be injured, or by another lawfully aiding him or her, in preventing or attempting to prevent an offense against his or her person, or a malicious trespass, or other malicious interference with real or personal property lawfully in his or her possession, in case the force is not more than is necessary;
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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