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Had to draw today!

Maverick9

Regular Member
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Apr 7, 2013
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Mid-atlantic
Even though monday morning quarterbacking is expected on a forum I won't. Sounds like you did the right thing. 2 on 1 is a disparity of force and throw in a possible weapon your reaction is spot on. Assuming you've been completely honest in this discussion.

You might be confused. 2 on 1 disparity of force being a justification for shooting unarmed people is difficult to prove if it's AGAINST YOURSELF. Two on 1 in a wrestling match against someone else, unless there's clear evidence of risk of grievous bodily harm does not generally justify shooting someone who is attacking a third party (not yourself or a loved one). Besides, who is the OP going to shoot? How does he know who is in the wrong. Maybe the single person just committed a felony?

Check your state laws to be sure.
 
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BigDave

Opt-Out Members
Joined
Nov 22, 2006
Messages
3,456
Location
Yakima, Washington, USA
You might be confused. 2 on 1 disparity of force being a justification for shooting unarmed people is difficult to prove if it's AGAINST YOURSELF. Two on 1 in a wrestling match against someone else, unless there's clear evidence of risk of grievous bodily harm does not generally justify shooting someone who is attacking a third party (not yourself or a loved one). Besides, who is the OP going to shoot? How does he know who is in the wrong. Maybe the single person just committed a felony?

Check your state laws to be sure.

You bring up a very good point, how to tell if you are defending the right person ? I feel one can determine this by observing who is acting in a self defensive position? Our laws provide for self defense until such time the threat is no longer present.
One can be the victim to begin with and become the aggressor in the same incident, avoid becoming the attacker.
 
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hermannr

Regular Member
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Mar 24, 2011
Messages
2,327
Location
Okanogan Highland
To me it's the height of folly to insert yourself into a situation that you are not a part of, that does not include or affect your loved ones AND you brought a firearm into the mix on the assumption there was a weapon (?) being used. You should have called 911 and stayed the heck out of it. You don't know the people (and they can turn on you). You don't know the situation and next thing you know they're accusing YOU of something. Stupid, stupid, stupid. Glad you're safe but stay out of other people's fights. Being on your property is a trespassing problem at most.

You do not think you have a responsibility to assist in protecting the life of a stranger? Sad, sad, sad. now Go read RCW 9A.16 110
 

Freedom1Man

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
4,462
Location
Greater Eastside Washington
'Police are on the way, Your on my property get off'. If that was not enough bring attention to my holstered firearm, just yelling 'GUN!' or something likely is enough to get them to look up. I like to stay away from phrases like 'I got a gun'. If that did not help, hopefully the police be there shortly. I wouldn't interject myself any further than that unless it was absolutely needed.

Something that was not yet mentioned, If the situation warranted you drawing a weapon, you need to make sure you call 911 at the earliest.

Really? I gave you more credit than that.

You're*

Yelling "gun" is not the brightest move either. Having it upholstered and ready would be more prudent.

While calling 911 would be a great idea the assailants fled the scene so getting them caught is not likely. Calling the 911 afterwards though would help keep the OP out of prison.

It was also in the OP's yard, so the home owner's insurance may have had to pay for the victim's medical bill if the OP did not intervene.
 

Freedom1Man

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
4,462
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Greater Eastside Washington
You might be confused. 2 on 1 disparity of force being a justification for shooting unarmed people is difficult to prove if it's AGAINST YOURSELF. Two on 1 in a wrestling match against someone else, unless there's clear evidence of risk of grievous bodily harm does not generally justify shooting someone who is attacking a third party (not yourself or a loved one). Besides, who is the OP going to shoot? How does he know who is in the wrong. Maybe the single person just committed a felony?

Check your state laws to be sure.

RCW 9A.16.020
Use of force — When lawful.


The use, attempt, or offer to use force upon or toward the person of another is not unlawful in the following cases:

(1) Whenever necessarily used by a public officer in the performance of a legal duty, or a person assisting the officer and acting under the officer's direction;

(2) Whenever necessarily used by a person arresting one who has committed a felony and delivering him or her to a public officer competent to receive him or her into custody;

(3) Whenever used by a party about to be injured, or by another lawfully aiding him or her, in preventing or attempting to prevent an offense against his or her person, or a malicious trespass, or other malicious interference with real or personal property lawfully in his or her possession, in case the force is not more than is necessary;
 

mtb_nw

New member
Joined
Jun 8, 2013
Messages
1
Location
Federal Way
you took a huge risk with your freedom

It was pretty clear that I was NOT the aggressor, there were at LEAST 2 witnesses who came to intervene, not to mention a truck where the driver was holding its horn without pause, which is what alerted me to the whole thing anyways. The one gentleman really wasn't doing much in terms of intervention, but he told me to put the gun away, which I told HIM to get them off my damned lawn. Really... some people with the nerve to assume everything was alright and allowing the beating to continue really sickens me.

From what I read you did not see who started the fight. What if the girl getting beat was the person who started the fight? Does not matter that it took place in your front yard you brought lethal force to a situation that you did not have enough information about. Without witnessing the start of the fight you took a huge risk with your freedom. If you would have used lethal force to protect this girl and later found out the girl getting the beat down was responsible for the fight you would be sitting in jail for murder or attempted murder. You should have phoned 911 and left your firearm holstered.
 
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tannerwaterbury

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2009
Messages
269
Location
Kelso, Washington, USA
From what I read you did not see who started the fight. What if the girl getting beat was the person who started the fight? Does not matter that it took place in your front yard you brought lethal force to a situation that you did not have enough information about. Without witnessing the start of the fight you took a huge risk with your freedom. If you would have used lethal force to protect this girl and later found out the girl getting the beat down was responsible for the fight you would be sitting in jail for murder or attempted murder. You should have phoned 911 and left your firearm holstered.

Why does it matter who started the fight? The end result was the girl getting a pretty bad beatdown afterwords. I don't know what the law states in terms of witnessing who did what first, but I know that no matter who instigated what, if someones life was in danger and it was taking place on my lawn, I had every right to come to her aid.
 

DamonK

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 23, 2012
Messages
585
Location
Ft. Lewis, WA
Why does it matter who started the fight? The end result was the girl getting a pretty bad beatdown afterwords. I don't know what the law states in terms of witnessing who did what first, but I know that no matter who instigated what, if someones life was in danger and it was taking place on my lawn, I had every right to come to her aid.

+100
You other guys and gals can choose to live as cowards if you want to, but damned if I'm going to let someone get beat to death on my property. It doesn't matter who started it. There being two of them, a potential weapon, and them continuing to beat the victim while she can't defend herself, and it doesn't matter if they are on your property or not. You have every right(and duty) as a responsible member of your community and the state of Washington to stop that fight. Remember, all it takes for evil to succeed is for good men and women to do nothing ie mind our own business.

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2
 

amlevin

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2007
Messages
5,937
Location
North of Seattle, Washington, USA
Why does it matter who started the fight? The end result was the girl getting a pretty bad beatdown afterwords. I don't know what the law states in terms of witnessing who did what first, but I know that no matter who instigated what, if someones life was in danger and it was taking place on my lawn, I had every right to come to her aid.

You really don't need to know who started it. You have the right to keep someone from killing another and then let the Police sort it out.

It's really a lot more simple than many want to make it.
 

Maverick9

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
1,404
Location
Mid-atlantic
You have the right to keep someone from killing another and then let the Police sort it out.

It's really a lot more simple than many want to make it.

"Oo-oo, look, something's happening, let's go get our guns and wave them around. Can't be a COWARD and hide in the house. It's a right, it's a right. Insert yourself, go get your conceal carry badge and your hall monitor's sash."

These are the kind of people that make me cringe when I find they own firearms.
 

Stretch

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2009
Messages
489
Location
Pasco, WA, ,
"Oo-oo, look, something's happening, let's go get our guns and wave them around. Can't be a COWARD and hide in the house. It's a right, it's a right. Insert yourself, go get your conceal carry badge and your hall monitor's sash."

These are the kind of people that make me cringe when I find they own firearms.

Why do you cringe? Is it because the OP made a decision to stop the felony occurring in his yard?
 

gsx1138

Regular Member
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
882
Location
Bremerton, Washington, United States
"Oo-oo, look, something's happening, let's go get our guns and wave them around. Can't be a COWARD and hide in the house. It's a right, it's a right. Insert yourself, go get your conceal carry badge and your hall monitor's sash."

These are the kind of people that make me cringe when I find they own firearms.

If more people thought like you we'd all be drinking a lot more tea and a lot less coffee. After all, it's someone elses problem.
 

EMNofSeattle

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2012
Messages
3,670
Location
S. Kitsap, Washington state
"Oo-oo, look, something's happening, let's go get our guns and wave them around. Can't be a COWARD and hide in the house. It's a right, it's a right. Insert yourself, go get your conceal carry badge and your hall monitor's sash."

These are the kind of people that make me cringe when I find they own firearms.

Kitty Genovese syndrome at its finest ladies and gentleman.

you seem to have what Nutnfancy calls "a protectionist philosophy" meaning don't do anything, don't protect anyone. the government will solve it all for you. just call the government and they'll come fix it.

I think the HossUSMC says it best at 1:25

[video=youtube;DQ2wr6F3v1o]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQ2wr6F3v1o[/video]
 
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Maverick9

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
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Location
Mid-atlantic
I expected some backlash on that post about 'let's go insert ourselves and wave guns around'. However, NOWHERE did I say don't stop a dangerous incident.

I have always advocated responding to an event as though I DO NOT have a firearm. That keeps things from escalating and ORDINARY, but effective means are used.

How would you react to a fairly serious 'fight' in your back yard. I can think of a couple of very effective ways.
1. Yell out the window 'hey, cut it out I'm calling 911'.
2. If you must do something physical, get your garden hose and give them a vigorous spraying down.

Ask yourself about the OP's title. 'I HAD TO DRAW TODAY'. Note that it's a completely over the top characterization. First (and I don't mean to dis the OP, just talking about inappropriate use of firearms), he did NOT have to draw. He was not assaulted, there was no danger to him or his loved ones. There were simply people wrasslin' in his yard.

What does M. Ayoob say - 'IN THE GRAVEST EXTREME'. We should all remind ourselves. We are NOT policemen. We do NOT know the details of an event that you just come upon well enough to go out and pick someone to shoot and KILL. We CAN be identified as the BG by a squad car passing by if we go out with a gun in the hand, which is JUST what the OP did.

Who is more cowardly - someone who runs back in the house to get a gun, or someone who yells and calls 911. Getting a gun for a non-gravely extreme event is cowardly, imo. You're letting your fear rule your brains.

HTH
 

EMNofSeattle

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2012
Messages
3,670
Location
S. Kitsap, Washington state
I expected some backlash on that post about 'let's go insert ourselves and wave guns around'. However, NOWHERE did I say don't stop a dangerous incident.

I have always advocated responding to an event as though I DO NOT have a firearm. That keeps things from escalating and ORDINARY, but effective means are used.
Assault in the first degree is a felony in this state, escalation has already been made

How would you react to a fairly serious 'fight' in your back yard. I can think of a couple of very effective ways.
1. Yell out the window 'hey, cut it out I'm calling 911'.
2. If you must do something physical, get your garden hose and give them a vigorous spraying down.

Oh Gosh no, whatever you do don't get me wet while I'm beating the crap out of someone..... said no felon ever.

Ask yourself about the OP's title. 'I HAD TO DRAW TODAY'. Note that it's a completely over the top characterization. First (and I don't mean to dis the OP, just talking about inappropriate use of firearms), he did NOT have to draw. He was not assaulted, there was no danger to him or his loved ones. There were simply people wrasslin' in his yard.

There was imminent danger to someone on his property, by people who weren't supposed to be there. were the little punks scared after he drew on them? probably, maybe they'll remember that next time they want to commit trespass and assault.

What does M. Ayoob say - 'IN THE GRAVEST EXTREME'. We should all remind ourselves. We are NOT policemen. We do NOT know the details of an event that you just come upon well enough to go out and pick someone to shoot and KILL. We CAN be identified as the BG by a squad car passing by if we go out with a gun in the hand, which is JUST what the OP did.

and the police are going to do what? look at the trespassers on your land, the injury on their victim, the fact you're the owner, and take the offenders away. who cares if the cops see you? you're not breaking the law.

Who is more cowardly - someone who runs back in the house to get a gun, or someone who yells and calls 911. Getting a gun for a non-gravely extreme event is cowardly, imo. You're letting your fear rule your brains.

HTH

Who is more stupid? someone who grabs the appropriate level of force to command immediate compliance to his lawful demands that they vacate the property, or the person who looks at a felony in progress and thinks "hmmmm let's get my garden hose and have a water fight"?

A felony level assault is a gravely extreme event. in case you were too busy sleeping and drawing martians in anatomy class, force can damage tissues, and injuries to the head, heart, joints can be fatal or crippling.

Also the girl being beaten was either on the ground or unable to escape the attack. if she were on the ground now it's a deadly force assault for sure. if someone attempts to withdraw from the fight, even if they started it, they're no longer the aggressor.
 
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EMNofSeattle

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2012
Messages
3,670
Location
S. Kitsap, Washington state
From what I read you did not see who started the fight. What if the girl getting beat was the person who started the fight? Does not matter that it took place in your front yard you brought lethal force to a situation that you did not have enough information about. Without witnessing the start of the fight you took a huge risk with your freedom. If you would have used lethal force to protect this girl and later found out the girl getting the beat down was responsible for the fight you would be sitting in jail for murder or attempted murder. You should have phoned 911 and left your firearm holstered.

why don't you cite a law in this.....

even if the girl being beaten had started the fight, once she had tried to withdraw or was unable to withdraw due to the beat down, she now becomes the victim. furthermore even if the girl had been the initial aggressor it would be irrelevant since Tan didn't know that and thus could not have factored it into his decision. Washington state requires only you be justified in using force knowing what you knew at the time you used it.
 

Utah_Patriot

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2008
Messages
718
Location
Kearns, Utah, USA
I would be worried about cross fire. Maybe having the firearm at the low ready finger off the trigger.

Also maybe the female was the aggressor and the males were defending themselves.

Just be careful before you engage the individuals who he suspect is.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 4 Beta
 

Trigger Dr

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2007
Messages
2,760
Location
Wa, ,
At no point did the OP say or indicate that he pointed the firearm at the fighters, nor did he say to them that he had a gun (shudder). None of you, myself included were there, but the majority of you speculate on knowing all the facts,including the backyard lawyers:banghead:
 
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XDNick9

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2013
Messages
49
Location
Bremerton/Ellensburg
If it were me, I probably would have just left my gun holstered and taken a stance a good distance away and yelled something to the effect of

+1 as well. I think what you did was justifiable, but I really liked what Slapmonkay stated above. Stating the presence of your firearm will most likely get a "deer in the headlights" response and quickly defuse the situation. Once your adrenaline kicked in (which it did), all you were thinking about was the safety and welfare of the victim. Good job =)
 
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