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Thread: Opencarry.org is a Political/Partisan group says the WI DOT

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    Opencarry.org is a Political/Partisan group says the WI DOT

    The opencarry.org Adopt a Highway signs will be taken down per the attached letter.
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    Regular Member xenophon's Avatar
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    Political group??!! Interesting, I wonder if they are also taking down teacher association ones, PETA or humane society ones, etc.

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    Opencarry.org is a Political/Partisan group says the WI DOT

    What wording on the sign is presenting the problem?


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    Here's a pic of the sign

    This is from a cleanup day in '11
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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Following this.

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    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
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    partisan? not possible sense there are members of all parties. political, don't know about that. since opencarry.org does not have any political power, or any active funds or standing political stance.

    i am partial to saying, who gives a rats but, let the highways go dirty. there are plenty of prisoners that can clean the roads

    but i do understand the PR that comes with doing a good deed and having your name on the board. not excluding the camaraderie of getting together to do something

    is there a different controlling group to appeal to?
    Luke 22:36 ; 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rickrich View Post
    This is from a cleanup day in '11
    I see ... they are missing their "cheese heads" lol .. oh wait, that's the pic, not the sign ...

    The sign ...Really, the name is OK ... what is wrong then??? The WI Chapter portion?


    they are likely still picking up my MT beer cans from my WI beer runs when I was younger ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by rickrich View Post
    The opencarry.org Adopt a Highway signs will be taken down per the attached letter.
    "This signs will have to be taken down".

    Nitpick:

    Shouldn't it be "This sign will have to be taken down" (singular) or "These signs will have to be taken down" (plural)?

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    That makes even less sense than usual.
    "Your group has a Political/Partisan group name."
    As far as I can tell, the group name they have on file is opencarry.org
    WTH is political or partisan about that? (And neither word deserves to be in upper case.)
    Am I reading that right? What's on the signs currently?

    What other name would she find acceptable?
    Wisconsin Open Carry?
    Second Amendment Citizens?
    Civil Rights Supporters of Wisconsin?
    Second Amendment Supporters of Wisconsin?

    I think she needs a bunch of emails asking those exact questions.
    margaretj.brown@dot.wi.gov
    262-548-8722
    Last edited by MKEgal; 06-09-2013 at 11:47 PM. Reason: what is the current wording on the sign?

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    That makes even less sense than usual.
    "Your group has a Political/Partisan group name."
    As far as I can tell, the group name they have on file is opencarry.org
    WTH is political or partisan about that? (And neither word deserves to be in upper case.)
    Am I reading that right? What's on the signs currently?

    What other name would she find acceptable?
    Wisconsin Open Carry?
    Second Amendment Citizens?
    Civil Rights Supporters of Wisconsin?
    Second Amendment Supporters of Wisconsin?

    I think she needs a bunch of emails asking those exact questions.
    margaret.brown@dot.wi.gov
    262-548-8722
    Try "Society for Reasonable Gun Laws" while doing open carry litter pickup.

    word is, this will also get you special breaks from the IRS as a bonus!
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    What wording on the sign is presenting the problem?

    Never underestimate the ability of a bureaucrat to obfuscate.




    Just send a reply letter obfuscating in return.

    For example,

    Dear Ms. Bureaucrat

    We're not sure why we're being told to take down the sign, since we didn't put it up. But, we'll be happy to take the sign down. We'll take it down Wednesday. Should we take out the sign post, too?

    No, we don't want to change our apolitical non-affiliation, so please just add us to the list of political organizations who signs must not change.

    And, we do want to continue our support for your program. Please refund our application fee and refer to the middle section of the reverse of our previous application.

    Just give her a double mouthful of goobledygook in return.
    Last edited by Citizen; 06-08-2013 at 12:11 AM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

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    Application/Permit (DT1206) - Fill out this form to apply for adopting a highway

    21. Partisan political groups (groups of people with common political opinions and purposes organized for gaining political influence, governmental control and for directing government policies) shall not be permitted to participate.http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/localgov/aid/aah-forms.htm
    From fusion with a domestic terrorist watch list! For sure.
    Last edited by Nightmare; 06-08-2013 at 07:28 AM.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
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    I just went and read thru all the goobly-gook for Washington and I can't find anything that would remove us from the program except for not submitting cleaning up reports 4x's a year. The last few times I went to do a clean up the Youth Corps was in there cleaning, so there was nothing for us to do.

    Bill

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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Maybe someone should do an open records request for ALL the groups the DOT deigns to allow their signage to mention.

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Just did an open records request via email...
    This open records request (WI 19.31 et al.) is to obtain a list (preferably via email) of all organizations participating in the "Adopt a Highway" program in Wisconsin.
    Please include their organization names and the names posted on the signs for their sections of highways.

    If you cannot send it via email, please send paper copies to
    [redacted]
    So now we wait.
    Hopefully there's a PDF or .doc that can be provided quickly & painlessly.
    ETA: having more people requesting the same information would probably be a good thing.
    Email doesn't cost anything, & they have to respond to nonresidents too.
    Last edited by MKEgal; 06-08-2013 at 03:51 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    Just did an open records request via email...

    So now we wait.
    Hopefully there's a PDF or .doc that can be provided quickly & painlessly.
    ETA: having more people requesting the same information would probably be a good thing.
    Email doesn't cost anything, & they have to respond to nonresidents too.
    I have a feeling that it is lawsuit time.

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    Regular Member oak1971's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    I have a feeling that it is lawsuit time.
    Bingo.
    In God I trust. Everyone else needs to keep your hands where I can see them.

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95
    I have a feeling that it is lawsuit time.
    If evidence (which must be provided by the gov't) shows that gov't employees have been discriminating (sort of like the IRS has) then yes, that should be a possibility.
    I'm guessing WI Carry might be interested (or maybe John & Mike) if such evidence is... well... in evidence.
    I doubt there will be any reply, even an email, until at least Mon. or Tues.

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Re: Opencarry.org is a Political/Partisan group says the WI DOT

    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    If evidence (which must be provided by the gov't) shows that gov't employees have been discriminating (sort of like the IRS has) then yes, that should be a possibility.
    I'm guessing WI Carry might be interested (or maybe John & Mike) if such evidence is... well... in evidence.
    I doubt there will be any reply, even an email, until at least Mon. or Tues.
    Just a thought for future requests - I was told by a lawyer in MI who has won some high profile OC cases, to always send a certified written request (in addition to any electronic) requests. They (whoever in gov.) then cannot simply claim "we" never got it. It is a pain but it helps prevent delays/stalling on their part.
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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    I'll give her a day or two to get back to me via email, then call.
    If she's not willing to treat an email written request the same as a paper written request, I'm perfectly happy to write it up on paper & take it to her.
    And they won't even have to mail any paper files (if that's necessary) - I'll drive out & pick them up.
    Since there's nothing in my request connecting me to the OCDO group she's harassing, hopefully she'll be cooperative.

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    Opencarry.org is a Political/Partisan group says the WI DOT

    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    If evidence (which must be provided by the gov't) shows that gov't employees have been discriminating (sort of like the IRS has) then yes, that should be a possibility.
    I'm guessing WI Carry might be interested (or maybe John & Mike) if such evidence is... well... in evidence.
    I doubt there will be any reply, even an email, until at least Mon. or Tues.
    If there is a similarity to the IRS discrimination based upon political beliefs, do you think the media would show some interest in this action as an extension to the IRS story--that government, in general, is using its power against a specific class of political ideologies, particularly those grounded in a belief in individual Liberty as opposed to concentration of governmental power?


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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    wheee!

    I called Ms. Bown just to be sure that the open records request was received (it was), and she said that since I want the whole state she'd passed my request to the state coordinator. (I'd just checked my email & had no notice to that effect.)

    MKEgal: OK, that makes sense. And how do I contact that person?

    Ms Brown: She'll be contacting you.

    (silence 1, 2, 3)

    MKEgal: But what is her name & contact info?

    Ms Brown: It's on the website.

    MKEgal: So you're not willing to give me her name & contact info?

    Ms Brown: (sounding a little exasperated) Her name is Christa Wollenzien, email is christa.wollenzien@dot.wi.gov

    MKEgal: Thank you. I'll follow up with her.

    (Then I go to da Google, put in her name & "wisconsin dot" to get her phone: 608-266-3943)
    There's no reason I should have to ask 3 times. In fact, she should have volunteered the information.

    ETA: got an email from the state-level person; they're working on it.
    Last edited by MKEgal; 06-10-2013 at 05:17 PM.

  23. #23
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Interesting...
    Apparently, based on several court rulings, it is illegal for them to discriminate based on ideas, associations, political views, etc.
    So their whole rule about "no political or partisan groups" is illegal, let alone that they don't like our group name or what we stand for.
    Looks like their rules will have to change.
    Wonder if this is something people can do by inundating them with letters pointing out where they're wrong, or if it will take a letter from John or Mike, or if it will take an actual lawsuit.

    From the 8th Circuit Court of Appeals
    http://media.ca8.uscourts.gov/opndir/00/03/992334P.pdf
    viewpoint-based exclusion of any individual or organization from a government program is not a constitutionally permitted means of expressing disapproval of ideas... that the government disfavors.
    The state (MO) had tried to block the KKK from adopting a stretch of roadway.
    The case is from 2000.

    And from other court rulings:
    The Supreme Court has held that a legal entitlement to a position or program is not necessary in order to assert an unconstitutional conditions claim.
    Rutan v. Republican Party, 497 U.S. 62, 72 (1990)

    At least two circuits have applied this analysis to volunteer governmental positions.
    Andersen v. McCotter (10th Cir. 1996); Hyland v. Wonder (9th Cir. 1992)

    [The government] may not deny a benefit to a person on a basis that infringes his constitutionally protected interests - especially, his interest in freedom of speech.
    For if the government could deny a benefit to a person because of his constitutionally protected speech or associations, his exercise of those freedoms would in effect be penalized and inhibited.
    This would allow the government to "produce a result which [it] could not command directly."
    Such interference with constitutional rights is impermissible.
    Perry v. Sindermann, 408 U.S. 593, 597 (1972) (quoting Speiser v. Randall, 357 U.S. 513, 526 (1958)

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    That opinion was great.....

    "The state argued in depositions that the knights of Columbus was not a discriminatory organization becuase 'anybody could become catholic' we believe this requires no response"

    Had me laughing so hard my ipad is sticky from the coffee I was drinking....
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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  25. #25
    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    You should contact your local ACLU chapter, the ACLU is currently representing the ku klux klan in Georgia who applied for adopt a highway and were denied by the state becuase of their "history as a hae group" they may not represent you, but they'll probably send a polite letter on ACLU letterhead. Sometimes that may be enough for the bureaucrats to cut this out and crawl back under their rock
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

    NRA Member

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