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Thread: CCing without physical license

  1. #1
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    CCing without physical license

    I just received my letter today (tonight 9:50) stating that my CDWL (Kentucky) was reinstated. Before I received this information I was planning on transporting the normal Ohio way, but now I am hoping to carry it transport it concealed (basically just loaded).

    I will be leaving for Ohio tomorrow before my local sheriff department opens. So I can't pick up my CDWL.

    Would a letter from the Kentucky State police stating my name and that I have a valid Kentucky CDWL stand as proof of my license? It does not have a license number or picture on it.

    I couldn't find an answer to this anywhere. Hopefully someone here can answer it for me.

    Hopefully I can leave here at 5 tomorrow morning with an answer.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

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    I don't know enough about Ohio law to give you a definitive answer without more research than I have time for, but let me make a suggestion:

    Open carry. The only reason you will need a license is loaded carry in your car and passing through federal GFSZ. That you have a license would be a defense against these crimes, however that license might not stop you from being arrested if you do not have it on you. A reasonable officer should accept your letter. Unfortunately, not all officers are reasonable.

    I don't know if Ohio and Kentucky reciprocate. I assume that you know and that they do.

  3. #3
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Unfortunately I will be doing activities that would make carrying a firearm very impractical. So I cannot OC.

    I would like to have a loaded firearm in my Truck on the way there and back though. With Ohio's a firearm is always considered concealed when it is being transported.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

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    Regular Member XD40sc's Avatar
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    Might be a way to have your CC permit revoked again.

    Ohio might be different, but many states are real sticklers about if you are packing, you better be packing the permit also. In NC, the fact I have a CHP is part of the information that LEO's see when they run my license, but I expect that won't fly, even though their system says I have a permit.

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    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XD40sc View Post
    Might be a way to have your CC permit revoked again.
    I don't know. That was what I was hoping to find here. I can't figure out Ohio law. Kentucky actually has a statute that requires all statutes be in common language, Ohio might have a similar law stating the opposite.

    I also know that in Kentucky (which isn't helping me much) is that failure to provide CDWL is a non criminal 25.00 fine.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

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    It's a minor misdemeanor if you can't produce your license. There is no way to know what a LEO would think of your letter.

    (2) If a person being arrested for a violation of division (A)(2) of this section promptly produces a valid concealed handgun license, and if at the time of the violation the person was not knowingly in a place described in division (B) of section 2923.126 of the Revised Code, the officer shall not arrest the person for a violation of that division. If the person is not able to promptly produce any concealed handgun license and if the person is not in a place described in that section, the officer may arrest the person for a violation of that division, and the offender shall be punished as follows:

    (a) The offender shall be guilty of a minor misdemeanor if both of the following apply:

    (i) Within ten days after the arrest, the offender presents a concealed handgun license, which license was valid at the time of the arrest to the law enforcement agency that employs the arresting officer.


    (ii) At the time of the arrest, the offender was not knowingly in a place described in division (B) of section 2923.126 of the Revised Code.
    http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.12

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    Quote Originally Posted by RT48 View Post
    It's a minor misdemeanor if you can't produce your license. There is no way to know what a LEO would think of your letter.


    http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.12

    I've still always wondered about this as I think it wouldn't fly...

    Within ten days after the arrest, the offender presents a concealed handgun license, which license was valid at the time of the arrest to the law enforcement agency that employs the arresting officer.

    Ok, so I'm stopped and arrested for a M1 which is a must appear violation in Ohio. I'm processed and either booked through jail or cited and released. Either way, the legal court process has started. Therefore, it's no longer in the officer's hands. It's in the prosecutor's hands. The officer can't amend the charge, he can't dismiss the charge, he can't do anything to the charge legally.

    Now, the officer can see it and tell the prosecutor. But you have to get that exact officer if you want one that's even going to care. Then you have to hope he gets the word to the prosecutor to amend the charge from an M1 to an MM.

    The only time I've ever seen this played out is by the judge/prosecutor just doing the amendment when the person shows up in court. Basically the same way they do a No Operators License (4510.12.) Most courts I think start with the No OL section then amend it to a Failure to Display OL (4507.35.) Unfortunately, those are bad examples now since they are both unclassified misdemeanors (prior it was an M1 and an MM.)

    I'd love to hear from someone like Werz on how this is legally suppose to work out. IMO, it's still going to require a mandatory initial appearance on the M1, then you subpoena the officer to court to tell the prosecutor you showed your license within 10 days, then you get the plea deal offered to the MM, then you are good to go. So still at least two court appearances to solve.

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    Of course, if you are an Ohioan, then your license status will pop up in LEADS. I wonder if that would affect what the officer might do?

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    Regular Member MyWifeSaidYes's Avatar
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    If you are not carrying, say nothing.

    If you are carrying, notify that you have a CHL and you are armed. Many officers are not even asking to see your CHL thanks to LEADS.

    If you are asked for your CHL, look for it. You might just find it. If you can't find it, tell the officer where you think you left it and see what happens.

    That's all you can do.
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  10. #10
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Or just don't get caught...

    My wife has carried a kubatan in her purse for going on 35 years, it is a weapon, and is not covered with a permit. She has never been arrested for a concealed weapon. Why? Because she uses common sense. She now carries pepper spray and a expandable baton in her purse also, both not covered by a CHP. Neither of us are too worried about her getting arrested.

    Forgot the pocket knife she carries two, but they are legal. One in her purse, and one in a neck sheath.
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    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyWifeSaidYes View Post
    If you are asked for your CHL, look for it. You might just find it. If you can't find it, tell the officer where you think you left it and see what happens.
    My KY CDWL was revoked. I received the letter stating that it was reinstated the night (I checked the mail late) before I was going to Ohio. I could have had the card if my sheriff department was open a 10:00pm.

    I carried the firearm the way I usually transport it (hidden in a cup holder) up to the Ohio border and then removed the magazine and stored them into two separate compartments.

    I think that Ohio needs some drastic change in laws.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

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    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Or just don't get caught...
    Always helpful advice. This time I didn't. With all of Ohio's laws, I am sure that I broke some.

    Is it illegal to have a firearm on a private airstrip in Ohio?
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    Always helpful advice. This time I didn't. With all of Ohio's laws, I am sure that I broke some.

    Is it illegal to have a firearm on a private airstrip in Ohio?
    It is never helpful advice to imply that someone should break the law, but merely avoid being caught. It is also a rules violation here. You did your best to follow the law. That is as it should be.

    I don't know the answer to your question.

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    Don't be so quick to think that there are no special rules for carry at a private airstrip. Check the actual wording of the law before making such a hasty (and legally dangerous) pronouncement. There a rules in the ORC regarding carry at airports. I don't know how they are worded, but one should actually read the law before stating what it says. (Which is why I am not answering the question.)

    And if others are being permitted to carry in places where you are not, I recommend looking in the mirror for the reason.

    If you carried into a store I owned, and behaved there like you do here, I, too, would kick you and your gun out.

  15. #15
    Regular Member MyWifeSaidYes's Avatar
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    http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.126v1

    2923.126 Duties of licensed individual.
    ...
    (B) A valid concealed handgun license does not authorize the licensee to carry a concealed handgun in any manner prohibited under division (B) of section 2923.12 of the Revised Code or in any manner prohibited under section 2923.16 of the Revised Code. A valid license does not authorize the licensee to carry a concealed handgun into any of the following places:
    (1) A police station, sheriff's office, or state highway patrol station, premises controlled by the bureau of criminal identification and investigation, a state correctional institution, jail, workhouse, or other detention facility, an airport passenger terminal, or an institution that is maintained, operated, managed, and governed pursuant to division (A) of section 5119.02 of the Revised Code or division (A)(1) of section 5123.03 of the Revised Code;
    No distinction made between a public and private airport.

    Also, I found nothing specific in state law about open carry at airports. That being said, under ORC 2923.1212 (Signage prohibiting concealed handguns), they are required to post a "No weapons" signs that makes no distinction between open or concealed carry.
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    What does a caring, sensitive person feel when they are forced to use a handgun to stop a threat?

    Recoil.

  16. #16
    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyWifeSaidYes View Post
    http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.126v1

    2923.126 Duties of licensed individual.
    ...
    (B) A valid concealed handgun license does not authorize the licensee to carry a concealed handgun in any manner prohibited under division (B) of section 2923.12 of the Revised Code or in any manner prohibited under section 2923.16 of the Revised Code. A valid license does not authorize the licensee to carry a concealed handgun into any of the following places:
    (1) A police station, sheriff's office, or state highway patrol station, premises controlled by the bureau of criminal identification and investigation, a state correctional institution, jail, workhouse, or other detention facility, an airport passenger terminal, or an institution that is maintained, operated, managed, and governed pursuant to division (A) of section 5119.02 of the Revised Code or division (A)(1) of section 5123.03 of the Revised Code;
    No distinction made between a public and private airport.

    Also, I found nothing specific in state law about open carry at airports. That being said, under ORC 2923.1212 (Signage prohibiting concealed handguns), they are required to post a "No weapons" signs that makes no distinction between open or concealed carry.
    Excuse me!!!!!

    You guy need to read ORC chapters 4561 and Title 4563 very closely.

    There is a difference between public, private (meaning private for public use) and truly private. The ORC does address truly private airports as a "Landing field," but generically are called airports.

    Further, not all airports, public or private, maintain passenger terminals. And those definitions only apply to those particular chapter sections.

    However as stated, the term airport passenger terminal is not defined under ORC chapter 2923 or federal law.

    Depending on the sigh posting and verbiage it could address open and concealed carry. But, 2923.126 only deals with concealed carry.

  17. #17
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    This particular airstrip wouldn't have anything that I would call a "airport passenger terminal". It also lacked any signage regarding firearms. I couldn't OC my rig anyways due to the possibility of it getting snagged on some life saving device.

    It was just a question.


    Eye95, "Don't get caught" is great advice for anyone wanting to seemingly stay on the right side of the law. With Federal, State, and Local laws governing us it would be IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to not break any law and almost as difficult to not commit some obscure felony law. Remember, it is not an excuse to be ignorant of a law (even if everyone else is too).

    We don't advocate breaking any laws, but everyone will break some, mostly unknowingly.

    In short, get off your high horse. You (being older) have broken more laws than I. So "Don't get caught" seems to be your motto also.
    Last edited by 09jisaac; 06-15-2013 at 10:51 AM.
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  18. #18
    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    This particular airstrip wouldn't have anything that I would call a "airport passenger terminal". It also lacked any signage regarding firearms. I couldn't OC my rig anyways due to the possibility of it getting snagged on some life saving device.

    It was just a question.


    Eye95, "Don't get caught" is great advice for anyone wanting to seemingly stay on the right side of the law. With Federal, State, and Local laws governing us it would be IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to not break any law and almost as difficult to not commit some obscure felony law. Remember, it is not an excuse to be ignorant of a law (even if everyone else is too).

    We don't advocate breaking any laws, but everyone will break some, mostly unknowingly.

    In short, get off your high horse. You (being older) have broken more laws than I. So "Don't get caught" seems to be your motto also.
    Stahl v. Currey 20 N.E.2d 529 (Ohio 1939) Ohio Supreme Court

    The strict application to these inferior judges of the rule that everyone is bound to know the law, and the immunity afforded to the judges of the higher courts, gave much foundation for the satirical remark that all persons are presumed to know the law except judges of the courts of superior jurisdiction.
    In other words, ignorance of the law is an excuse.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    This particular airstrip wouldn't have anything that I would call a "airport passenger terminal". It also lacked any signage regarding firearms. I couldn't OC my rig anyways due to the possibility of it getting snagged on some life saving device.

    It was just a question.


    Eye95, "Don't get caught" is great advice for anyone wanting to seemingly stay on the right side of the law. With Federal, State, and Local laws governing us it would be IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to not break any law and almost as difficult to not commit some obscure felony law. Remember, it is not an excuse to be ignorant of a law (even if everyone else is too).

    We don't advocate breaking any laws, but everyone will break some, mostly unknowingly.

    In short, get off your high horse. You (being older) have broken more laws than I. So "Don't get caught" seems to be your motto also.
    "Don't get caught" implies that it is OK to break the law, that it is only the getting caught part that matters. Someone was suggesting just going ahead and carrying, even thought it would be technically illegal without the physical license. Saying, "Don't get caught," in that context is even more certainly advocating breaking the law, just carefully.

    So, get off your high horse.

    Done making the point. Moving on.

  20. #20
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    "Don't get caught" implies that it is OK to break the law, that it is only the getting caught part that matters.
    "Don't get caught" implies nothing. It is very straight forward. You inferred that it means that it is OK to break the law.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    "Don't get caught" implies nothing. It is very straight forward. You inferred that it means that it is OK to break the law.
    The only thing it implies is "Don't get caught", a person that commits no crime does not get caught.
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