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Thread: NSA Spying .. people pissed ... government v. happy

  1. #1
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    NSA Spying .. people pissed ... government v. happy

    http://www.examiner.com/article/inte...s-give-details
    people pissed

    http://news.yahoo.com/intelligence-c...214254317.html
    Gov't happy

    And they want to start taking away our guns? I can make my own, dummies

    All you need is a drill press .... I may start having "build" parties ...

    Who needs a 3d printer?

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    Regular Member DrakeZ07's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    http://www.examiner.com/article/inte...s-give-details
    people pissed

    http://news.yahoo.com/intelligence-c...214254317.html
    Gov't happy

    And they want to start taking away our guns? I can make my own, dummies

    All you need is a drill press .... I may start having "build" parties ...


    Who needs a 3d printer?
    Oh, is this forum now a haven for illegally constructing firearms and advocating such things?!
    I'm a proud openly gay open carrier~
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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeZ07 View Post
    Oh, is this forum now a haven for illegally constructing firearms and advocating such things?!
    I know this is just more statist-apologist trolling, but for the record, it's perfectly legal to build firearms for personal use.

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    Regular Member DrakeZ07's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    I know this is just more statist-apologist trolling, but for the record, it's perfectly legal to build firearms for personal use.
    Someone needs to tell that to the BATFE then, my Ex-BF really hates prison time.
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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeZ07 View Post
    Someone needs to tell that to the BATFE then, my Ex-BF really hates prison time.
    The BATFE is perfectly aware of the law.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeZ07 View Post
    Oh, is this forum now a haven for illegally constructing firearms and advocating such things?!
    nothing wrong with making your own personal gun .... you have been brainwashed my friend ... I have freed you ...

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    The BATFE is perfectly aware of the law.
    No, they like most dealers are not aware of the what the law says. Remember that certain dealers who post here cannot even cite the Form 4473 that shows that the form is for use on sales taking place wholly outside federal territories (federal states).

    So, Marshual, while I agree with you most of the time, this time I don't.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Regular Member XD40sc's Avatar
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    No quarter for surrender monkeys

    The people that are happy with the NSA spying, are nothing but a bunch of craven cowardly surrender monkeys and do not deserve the rights they are so damn eager to surrender. My problem with them is, is they do not have the right to turn in my rights. These surrender monkeys are as great a threat as our rights as are those trying to confiscate our rights.

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    Quote Originally Posted by XD40sc View Post
    The people that are happy with the NSA spying, are nothing but a bunch of craven cowardly surrender monkeys and do not deserve the rights they are so damn eager to surrender. My problem with them is, is they do not have the right to turn in my rights. These surrender monkeys are as great a threat as our rights as are those trying to confiscate our rights.
    Huh!?!

    How can anyone not deserve rights? There is no courage requirement in the Bill of Rights. Timid people have just as much right to be left alone as anybody else. Same for ignorant people. A person deserves rights simply because he exists, nothing more required.

    How can anybody "turn in" your rights? They can't. Even if the surrender monkeys (sic) waive their rights, they cannot waive yours.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member XD40sc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Huh!?!

    How can anyone not deserve rights? There is no courage requirement in the Bill of Rights. Timid people have just as much right to be left alone as anybody else. Same for ignorant people. A person deserves rights simply because he exists, nothing more required.

    How can anybody "turn in" your rights? They can't. Even if the surrender monkeys (sic) waive their rights, they cannot waive yours.
    You turn in your rights when you do not oppose violation of your rights. The "I have nothing to hide, so it's OK" that the majority profess is doing nothing more than handing over rights without a whimper.

    Perhaps liberals might think that our rights are just granted without any reciprocity or responsibility, or even the duty to go and vote. I'm sorry, I see every person that thinks that our freedoms and rights are free and no better than the third generation welfare leach with a permanent lip-lock on the teat of the government.

    Individually we have responsibilities as citizens to defend the rights we have. Once everyone decides our rights don't require individual responsibility, we are doomed, and our rights will quickly fade. We are damn close to that tipping point today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by XD40sc View Post
    You turn in your rights when you do not oppose violation of your rights. The "I have nothing to hide, so it's OK" that the majority profess is doing nothing more than handing over rights without a whimper.

    Perhaps liberals might think that our rights are just granted without any reciprocity or responsibility, or even the duty to go and vote. I'm sorry, I see every person that thinks that our freedoms and rights are free and no better than the third generation welfare leach with a permanent lip-lock on the teat of the government.

    Individually we have responsibilities as citizens to defend the rights we have. Once everyone decides our rights don't require individual responsibility, we are doomed, and our rights will quickly fade. We are damn close to that tipping point today.
    No you don't.

    Among other things, you're basically saying that the aboriginal who never heard of rights or political theory doesn't have any rights. Including the slaves imported here from Africa in the 17th and 18th centuries.

    You're also hinging rights on success against government. You can fight for your rights and still be doomed by losing the fight--see the Spartacus uprising in the latter half of the first century BC. You're saying those slaves who fought and lost did not have a right to be free men?

    No, sir. Rights are rights are rights are rights. A person has them merely by existing. A person has as much property in his rights as himself--this was examined and explained to the satisfaction of the Founder's generation eighty-seven years before the Declaration of Independence by John Locke in Second Treatise on Government. Oh, by the way, the second paragraph of the Declaration of Independence summarizes some of Locke's key points. You remember. "We hold these truths to be self-evident...endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights..."
    Last edited by Citizen; 06-13-2013 at 11:55 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member ron73440's Avatar
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    I'm disappointed in the lack of reaction when I talk to people, they think if it is used against terrorism then it's OK.

    If I bring up the tea party IRS angle (govt power can be abused) I generally hear how that was a one time thing.

    I believe most people don't value freedom and am not sure how long we will be free if this is the case.
    Last edited by ron73440; 06-14-2013 at 12:10 AM. Reason: grammar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ron73440 View Post
    I'm disappointed in the lack of reaction when I talk to people, they think if it is used against terrorism then it's OK.

    If I bring up the tea party IRS angle (govt power can be abused) I generally hear how that was a one time thing.

    I believe most people don't value freedom and am not sure how long we will be free if this is the case.

    I understand.

    The thing to do is put it in a frame of reference that gets their attention a little bit. Sometimes you have to start over in left field (no pun intended), and work your way back.

    For example, "If it can be used against terrorism, it can be used against you. Or, more likely, used against opinion leaders and politicians. We already know Hoover used his dossiers to influence politics. We know about Hillary using FBI files in the travelgate scandal. We know about the IRS targeting certain groups based on their political ideology. What happens when the party you dislike is in power and starts using that information against opinion leaders you like? Or, starts influencing politicians by blackmail? You know, 'We'll keep your little trysts with the escort that we found out through your cell calls under wraps if you will just vote more money for us, or just vote to bomb Libya, or just vote to...'

    I've had a very little luck with clearing up that trading liberty for safety is a red herring, a false positioning. Rights are safety. By empowering government thru reduction in rights, one is trading long-term security against short term security. Yeah, the terrorist might blow up a city. That's not a certainty. But, what is a certainty is that a bad government affects every single person in its jurisdiction, not just one city.

    Etc.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    what i hear from democrats: bush did it too

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    what i hear from democrats: bush did it too
    Yes, he did, but he never proclaimed the war on terror was over, and then used fighting terror as justification.

    Also, a source at NBC News (Michael Isikoff) reports that the FBI has "dramatically increased its use of a controversial provision of the Patriot Act to secretly obtain a vast store of business records of U.S. citizens under President Barack Obama." The FBI filed 212 requests for this kind of data in a national security court last year, which represents a 1,000-percent increase from the number of similar requests four years prior.
    Last edited by FallonJeeper; 06-15-2013 at 12:59 AM.
    Hoka hey

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    just starting to see stories about folks saying that this type of activity goes too far... Al Gore (who actually quoted Ben Franklin ~ I did not think he ever knew the safety/liberty quote lol) ...

    This may actually be picking up steam ...

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ca Patriot View Post
    Instead of spying on 125 million innocent American citizens, wouldn't it make more sense to have a logical immigration policy that prevents millions of uknown people into America ? There is no reason why America should be letting untold numbers of middle eastern male muslims into America.
    Instead of spying on 125 million innocent Americans, wouldn't it make more sense to intern Ca Patriot's family?

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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    Instead of spying on 125 million innocent Americans, wouldn't it make more sense to intern Ca Patriot's family?


    CaPatriot has demonstrated hatred for about a billion muslims who didn't murder anybody. I don't believe for one second he's capable of compassion for anybody else.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  19. #19
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ca Patriot View Post
    No it wouldn't. No one in my family is a terrorist.

    Everyone in my family are legal citizens too.
    I just figured, since we were making non sequiturs apparently solely for their comedic value, I'd join in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ca patriot View Post
    no it wouldn't. No one in my family is a terrorist.

    Everyone in my family are legal citizens too.
    rofl!!
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  21. #21
    Regular Member XD40sc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    No you don't.

    Among other things, you're basically saying that the aboriginal who never heard of rights or political theory doesn't have any rights. Including the slaves imported here from Africa in the 17th and 18th centuries.
    OK, assumed you lived in watertown and your were ordered out of your home at gunpoint, and guns were also pointed at your children, and your house was searched. Are you saying your 4A rights were not violated?

    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    You're also hinging rights on success against government. You can fight for your rights and still be doomed by losing the fight--see the Spartacus uprising in the latter half of the first century BC. You're saying those slaves who fought and lost did not have a right to be free men?
    So we should only fight for our rights when we are assured of winning the battle. Tell that to all the black folk that were beaten, arrested, and even murdered in their struggle for civil rights, or the women that struggle for women's suffrage.

    You apparently don't want to stand up against any infringement of your rights, cause it too hard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by XD40sc View Post
    OK, assumed you lived in watertown and your were ordered out of your home at gunpoint, and guns were also pointed at your children, and your house was searched. Are you saying your 4A rights were not violated?



    So we should only fight for our rights when we are assured of winning the battle. Tell that to all the black folk that were beaten, arrested, and even murdered in their struggle for civil rights, or the women that struggle for women's suffrage.

    You apparently don't want to stand up against any infringement of your rights, cause it too hard.
    Is that the best you can do, subtly change the argument?

    First you argue about giving up rights, then that they're violated.

    Then you pull a strawman argument that I said we should only fight for rights when assured of winning the battle. You made that up as you went along; I never said it.

    And, then make an ad hominem attack on me.

    You just proved you're out of arguments, bucko.

    Thanks for handing me victory so easily. If you decide to fight intelligently with argument based on reason, lemme know.
    Last edited by Citizen; 06-16-2013 at 12:57 AM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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