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Thread: TPD Suicide by cop scenario.

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    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    TPD Suicide by cop scenario.

    She had the pistol in a holster on her hip... drew it on the cops and refused commands to drop it. http://azstarnet.com/news/blogs/poli...9bb2963f4.html

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    Regular Member conandan's Avatar
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    You point a weapon at a cop you will get shoot. If she said she would hurt herself or others the police have to check it out. I'm not saying she should have been shot there's always other ways to handle a situation. But some officers are trigger happy. I would look at all options before shooting someone.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Baffles me why people who want to die, pull others into the mix. Shame they couldn't taser her just to not let her have her way. But they were justified to use force to defend themselves.
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    COMMENTS REMOVED BY ADMINISTRATOR: Inappropriate
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    Quote Originally Posted by conandan View Post
    I'm not saying she should have been shot there's always other ways to handle a situation. But some officers are trigger happy. I would look at all options before shooting someone.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Shame they couldn't taser her just to not let her have her way.

    Am I freaking hallucinating? A subject has a drawn handgun in the low ready position, refuses several orders by uniformed police to drop it, and conandan would look for "other ways to handle a situation".

    That kind of naive thinking is how good (but stupid) people end up dead!

    A police officer shooting someone with a drawn weapon who ignores orders to drop it is not being 'trigger happy".

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
    Am I freaking hallucinating? A subject has a drawn handgun in the low ready position, refuses several orders by uniformed police to drop it, and conandan would look for "other ways to handle a situation".

    That kind of naive thinking is how good (but stupid) people end up dead!

    A police officer shooting someone with a drawn weapon who ignores orders to drop it is not being 'trigger happy".
    I agree with what you are saying, but still it is what she wanted. A taser will drop a person most times faster than a bullet, most determined people can continue a fight after being shot, even if they are dying. She really had some doubt about killing herself or she would have done it herself, and not involved others.
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    Regular Member conandan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
    Am I freaking hallucinating? A subject has a drawn handgun in the low ready position, refuses several orders by uniformed police to drop it, and conandan would look for "other ways to handle a situation".

    That kind of naive thinking is how good (but stupid) people end up dead!

    A police officer shooting someone with a drawn weapon who ignores orders to drop it is not being 'trigger happy".
    My reasoning for looking for another way was the fact an innocent man next to her. Who by the way got shot and fortunately survived. To many times when police fire on a suspect innocent people get shot as well. Using a taser or at least give the man next to her the opportunity to clear the line of fire.

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    Why would the OPer give ammunition to anti-gunners by characterizing the deceased as an OCer?

    To illustrate by contrast, why didn't the OPer title the thread: Three OCers gun down another OCer? Any thread involving uniformed police officers could be titled "OCers..."

    Why not give the anti-gunners some real ammo: "Three OCers gun down woman who desperately needed mental help."

    Or, "OCers invade Iraq and Afghanistan" Or, ....



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    Quote Originally Posted by conandan View Post
    My reasoning for looking for another way was the fact an innocent man next to her. Who by the way got shot and fortunately survived. To many times when police fire on a suspect innocent people get shot as well.


    This falls under the "greater danger theory" in that it is more dangerous not to act than to act. Under your way everybody could have eventually ended up dead, shot by that woman.


    Officers arrived, observed a woman draw a firearm and begin to raise it up, gave her orders to drop it, she would not comply. There wasn't time to sit back, stoke up a doobie, sing kumbaya, and collectively think out a "better way, per citizen conandan."

    You are ignorant, obviously untrained, and I am thankful you are not a cop. I wouldn't want someone with this hippy mentality backing me up. There was an uncompliant subject projecting a lethal threat, and it needed to be stopped. The end!

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    Regular Member conandan's Avatar
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    You are ignorant, obviously untrained, and I am thankful you are not a cop. I wouldn't want someone with this hippy mentality backing me up.

    Attacking me and passing judgement like this tells me a lot about you...

    You are entitled to your opinion, keep in mind neither one of us were there. If thinking their are other options to keep innocent people from being shot as well is having a hippie mentality, well.. say what you want.

    I never said the leos were wrong.

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    Re: Open Carrier shot and killed by TPD. Suicide by cop scenario.

    This was NOT a OC incident it was a clear suicide incident. Best way to get police to shoot you = point a firearm at them. Only way a taser could have been (possibly) deployed would have been at distance via xrep shotgun round which most patrol units do not carry and has a maximum range of only 100 feet. This is still too much distance to close should round not be effective before woman could fire on police or others. Standard tasers maximum range is 35 feet (awful close to engage a pistol pointing person). With the information we have at this time it appears police had little choice here.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    This was NOT a OC incident it was a clear suicide incident. Best way to get police to shoot you = point a firearm at them. Only way a taser could have been (possibly) deployed would have been at distance via xrep shotgun round which most patrol units do not carry and has a maximum range of only 100 feet. This is still too much distance to close should round not be effective before woman could fire on police or others. Standard tasers maximum range is 35 feet (awful close to engage a pistol pointing person). With the information we have at this time it appears police had little choice here.
    I didn't see anywhere in the linked news report where distance was mentioned, if I missed could you point it out? The officers were justified, but then also if they were at a greater distance the first concern should be cover, they must not teach that in the academy anymore. If someone is suicidal they usually are not trying to kill a cop, stalling if possible, is the best option. Nobody knows but the officers or the deceased whether it was possible.
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    Not to defend the cops here, but I will guarantee you that, should you point a weapon at this old, non-LEO type, I will take the appropriate action.

    None of us were there, none of us know the distances involved, and none of us know whether or not the cops had any other viable options. Personal opinion: This looks, from the available information, very much like another "suicide by cop". No, Joanie, I do not buy into your particular theory.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SFCRetired View Post
    Not to defend the cops here, but I will guarantee you that, should you point a weapon at this old, non-LEO type, I will take the appropriate action.

    None of us were there, none of us know the distances involved, and none of us know whether or not the cops had any other viable options. Personal opinion: This looks, from the available information, very much like another "suicide by cop". No, Joanie, I do not buy into your particular theory.
    I think that this would go for everyone ... not just cops, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by conandan
    Using a taser or at least give the man next to her the opportunity to clear the line of fire.
    Ya think that maybe when he saw police directing their attention his way, then they drew their guns, then they were shouting his way, and maybe he saw the woman next to him draw her gun, that he'd have the sense god gave a kumquat and at least dive for the ground.

    Quote Originally Posted by conandan
    You are ignorant, obviously untrained, and I am thankful you are not a cop.
    I wouldn't want someone with this hippy mentality backing me up.
    If you're referring to pkbites, you're completely wrong.
    And wasn't it you, conan, who was the "peace, love, & tasers" supporter?
    If she was pointing, or was attempting to point, a gun at the officers, they had no time to do anything else.
    (I will still doubt to the extent that I say "if she was pointing", but once dashcams come out I think they'll back up the officers.)
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    Re: Open Carrier shot and killed by TPD. Suicide by cop scenario.

    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    I didn't see anywhere in the linked news report where distance was mentioned, if I missed could you point it out? The officers were justified, but then also if they were at a greater distance the first concern should be cover, they must not teach that in the academy anymore. If someone is suicidal they usually are not trying to kill a cop, stalling if possible, is the best option. Nobody knows but the officers or the deceased whether it was possible.
    That was part of my point. The question of tasers was raised. Not knowing the distances and using a taser against a armed person is a recipe for harm to officers and bystanders. Someone who has stated they want to die is at best troubled at worst wanting to take as many people with them as they can. We don't know & I would speculate neither did the responding officers. The one person who knew their true intent is dead. And a family somewhere is reeling from their loss. Let's pray for them and be glad no others lost their lives.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    f you're referring to pkbites, you're completely wrong.
    Actually, he was quoting PKB from the post above, but Conan didn't use any quotes - very confusing.

    Quote Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
    This falls under the "greater danger theory" in that it is more dangerous not to act than to act. Under your way everybody could have eventually ended up dead, shot by that woman.

    Officers arrived, observed a woman draw a firearm and begin to raise it up, gave her orders to drop it, she would not comply. There wasn't time to sit back, stoke up a doobie, sing kumbaya, and collectively think out a "better way, per citizen conandan."

    You are ignorant, obviously untrained, and I am thankful you are not a cop. I wouldn't want someone with this hippy mentality backing me up. There was an uncompliant subject projecting a lethal threat, and it needed to be stopped. The end!
    Quote Originally Posted by conandan View Post
    You are ignorant, obviously untrained, and I am thankful you are not a cop. I wouldn't want someone with this hippy mentality backing me up.

    Attacking me and passing judgement like this tells me a lot about you...

    You are entitled to your opinion, keep in mind neither one of us were there. If thinking their are other options to keep innocent people from being shot as well is having a hippie mentality, well.. say what you want.

    I never said the leos were wrong.
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    Quote Originally Posted by conandan View Post
    You point a weapon at a cop you will get shoot. If she said she would hurt herself or others the police have to check it out. I'm not saying she should have been shot there's always other ways to handle a situation. But some officers are trigger happy. I would look at all options before shooting someone.
    I know of two officers personally who thought they could talk a suicide by cop out of doing so because they dealt with him before.

    Ones dead the other is in a wheel chair for the rest of his life paralyzed from the neck down. That little 32 auto work just fine. Shooter dead any way shot by the other officers on scene after he shot the two officers. They should have shot the BG a heck of a lot sooner IMHO>

    No thank you. You don't listen you point a firearm at me I am going to take appropriate action.
    Last edited by Firearms Iinstuctor; 06-11-2013 at 04:45 PM.
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    One does not use a Taser in a gun fight. A Taser is not the proper tool to use when dealing with a non-compliant subject holding a firearm.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
    One does not use a Taser in a gun fight. A Taser is not the proper tool to use when dealing with a non-compliant subject holding a firearm.
    Well that is not true, a not every problem is solved with a hammer, even if it looks like a nail. Most police avoid shooting people if possible, and yes even when the other person is armed. It just depends on the circumstances. And a taser is much more effective than a gun, if it can be deployed.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 06-11-2013 at 11:25 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    . And a taser is much more effective than a gun, if it can be deployed.

    Maybe maybe not, there have been a lots of documented taser failures.

    If the situation is right backed up by lethal means with proper cover then using a taser could be a option. I have seen some really good taserings worked like a charm, then I seen them fail nothing is 100 percent.

    When a person is threating violence against another with a distance weapon like a firearm it is very dangerous to assume that they well not use it or that they would miss. Once the bullets start flying its to late to call them back.
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    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Why would the OPer give ammunition to anti-gunners by characterizing the deceased as an OCer?

    To illustrate by contrast, why didn't the OPer title the thread: Three OCers gun down another OCer? Any thread involving uniformed police officers could be titled "OCers..."

    Why not give the anti-gunners some real ammo: "Three OCers gun down woman who desperately needed mental help."

    Or, "OCers invade Iraq and Afghanistan" Or, ....



    I think y'all get my point.
    You have no point. The gun was holstered on her side. If that's not 'open carry' I have no other term for it. She pulled the weapon and refused commands to drop it. These were TPD cops... not 3 OC'rs. They reacted according to the presented threat (as most of us would). Mental health aside... they're not there to psychoanalyze the persons reasons. If somebody points a gun at you... are you going to evaluate why? 'Snooze, ya lose!

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonora Rebel View Post
    You have no point. The gun was holstered on her side. If that's not 'open carry' I have no other term for it. She pulled the weapon and refused commands to drop it. These were TPD cops... not 3 OC'rs. They reacted according to the presented threat (as most of us would). Mental health aside... they're not there to psychoanalyze the persons reasons. If somebody points a gun at you... are you going to evaluate why? 'Snooze, ya lose!
    If I can find another option, outside deadly force, I will use it. One can avoid enormous hassles, and grief if it is possible to avoid shooting. As to the information we have the shooting was justified, and they will get much less grief than a citizen would. But if a LAC were in the same situation the very same police would be looking up your backside, front side, upside down and every which way. I personally have no desire to shoot another person, for any reason, and only would do it if I was forced. Better be damn sure you have your ducks in a row if you decide to shoot instead of snooze.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonora Rebel View Post
    You have no point. The gun was holstered on her side. If that's not 'open carry' I have no other term for it. She pulled the weapon and refused commands to drop it. These were TPD cops... not 3 OC'rs. They reacted according to the presented threat (as most of us would). Mental health aside... they're not there to psychoanalyze the persons reasons. If somebody points a gun at you... are you going to evaluate why? 'Snooze, ya lose!
    So, by your definition none of the cops had a handgun holstered on their side? They were all carrying long-arms? They were all carrying CC?
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Words matter

    Just my take on this - I define a OCer as a LAW ABIDING CITIZEN. This usually means a person who proprely carries pistol in a holster while going about their daily life for protection. Once a person steps outside the law; they are a criminal. We do not know all the details yet. Until we can get the final findings of the inquiry board etc.. or more details from witnesses, let's all take a deep breath & give the fighting a break please. Remeber this woman has a family. Please let's try to remeber that.
    Last edited by FreeInAZ; 06-12-2013 at 11:09 PM. Reason: punctuation
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