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Thread: Question re commercial vs reloaded self defense ammo

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    Regular Member POPS VA's Avatar
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    Question re commercial vs reloaded self defense ammo

    On friday while picking something up from my local FFL holder, we got to talking about reloading self defense ammo and he made the suggestion that I use commercial ammo in my carry handgun. When I asked why, he stated that were I to be in court after a self defense shooting using my own reloads, the CA would probably explain to the court that I was building ammo specifically designed to create exessive bodily damage and to kill. My first reaction was BS, but these days the anti 2As will not only blame the gun, but the ammo as well. So I turn this over to better minds than mine and I thank you all in advance for your input.

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    I use commercial FEDERAL EFMJ for performance reliability.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member POPS VA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    I use commercial FEDERAL EFMJ for performance reliability.
    Exactly what I have in my safe, but my reloads, for the most part, work much better than the commercial ammo I have purchased. I guess I didn't really ask the question, have there been any cases in Va. where the reloaded ammo was used by a CA against a LAC in court?

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by POPS VA View Post
    Exactly what I have in my safe, but my reloads, for the most part, work much better than the commercial ammo I have purchased. I guess I didn't really ask the question, have there been any cases in Va. where the reloaded ammo was used by a CA against a LAC in court?
    None that I have ever heard of, but it wouldn't surprise me if there was a case somewhere.
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    I think Massad Aboob started those 'concerns' years ago. (If he didn't start them, he certainly furthered them over the years.)

    Here is an article where he mentions several of the instances to back up his contention:

    http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost....&postcount=140

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    The only case Ayoob has which is at all convincing is the guy who's wife shot herself with reduced recoil handloads which left no "GSR". The police compared to factory loads which did. He was convicted, if I recall, of murder.

    Seems like a pretty unlikely scenario.

    (BTW, "GSR" is junk science.)

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    A lot depends what area one lives in very anti gun areas they are most likely to be the problem areas.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    User has answered this several times, do a search maybe you can find one of the other threads where he clarified it. Not speaking for him, but if I remember correctly you are either justified to use deadly force or you are not.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    User has answered this several times, do a search maybe you can find one of the other threads where he clarified it. Not speaking for him, but if I remember correctly you are either justified to use deadly force or you are not.
    Exactly!

    That said, the bullet selection may be getting a little slimmer. Skidmark told me today Solid Brass and Copper bullets are now consider armor piercing (Of course I never use any of those nasty things Barns makes).

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    Regular Member POPS VA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    The only case Ayoob has which is at all convincing is the guy who's wife shot herself with reduced recoil handloads which left no "GSR". The police compared to factory loads which did. He was convicted, if I recall, of murder.

    Seems like a pretty unlikely scenario.

    (BTW, "GSR" is junk science.)
    OK I'm hooked, why is GSR junk science. I thought that was a benchmark in ivestigative techniques where a firearm was discharged

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    User has answered this several times, do a search maybe you can find one of the other threads where he clarified it. Not speaking for him, but if I remember correctly you are either justified to use deadly force or you are not.
    Thanks, I'll look for the thread, I'd love to see User's take on this

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by POPS VA View Post
    I thought that was a benchmark in ivestigative techniques where a firearm was discharged
    A lack of "GSR" does not indicate that the individual has not fired a gun (e.g. reduced recoil handloads, apparently). A presence of "GSR" equally does not indicate that the individual has fired a gun ("GSR" tests can be positive for substances other than actual gun shot residue).

    "GSR" is something that actors say on CSI to sound cool, but it isn't a useful forensic technique.
    Last edited by marshaul; 06-10-2013 at 09:31 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    A lack of "GSR" does not indicate that the individual has not fired a gun (e.g. reduced recoil handloads, apparently). A presence of "GSR" equally does not indicate that the individual has fired a gun ("GSR" tests can be positive for substances other than actual gun shot residue).

    "GSR" is something that actors say on CSI to sound cool, but it isn't a useful forensic technique.
    Thank you for the clarification, I was just a little curious

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Exactly!

    That said, the bullet selection may be getting a little slimmer. Skidmark told me today Solid Brass and Copper bullets are now consider armor piercing (Of course I never use any of those nasty things Barns makes).
    I read that also, gonna be tough for those folks in CA. They can't use lead, and now they can't use brass or copper. Guess bullets will have to be made out of cotton candy there.
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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    I read that also, gonna be tough for those folks in CA. They can't use lead, and now they can't use brass or copper. Guess bullets will have to be made out of cotton candy there.
    Since there are so many Zinc Wheelweights out there now, I've been playing with it. If you adjust the bullet length to compensate for the lighter weight, they shoot fairly well.

    I also expect this rule to be challenged by the bullet makers.
    Last edited by peter nap; 06-11-2013 at 02:25 AM.

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    Brass yes but copper,no

    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    I read that also, gonna be tough for those folks in CA. They can't use lead, and now they can't use brass or copper. Guess bullets will have to be made out of cotton candy there.
    The solid copper bullets are still marketed just like the copper jacketed lead. Turned brass bullets DID get moved to the Armor Peircing category, damn it. I have seen some very light and very fast solid tin loads that intrigue me. 1900fps out of a .45ACP just seems cool.
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    everyone should have the ability to reload ...

    Paint on your bullets "die commie die" and be happy

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    I don' t remember exactly what I said before, and the search function on this website is notoriously ineffective. But I think the summaries of my opinion stated already were correct. I'd have used the technical legal term which is unpublishable, but starting with "bull" or alternatively, "horse" (a technical term coming from our Anglo-Saxon past legal history).

    If you have a good and necessary reason to shoot, then you've got a good and necessary reason to shoot. Nothing else matters at that point. If you're charged with a crime, the eight-hundred pound gorilla in the room is going to be the fact that you shot someone; everyone's going to know it and there's no point in dancing around it. So my position is that you should meet it head on, and be prepared to testify that, in the situation you were facing, it was a good thing you were adequately prepared to meet the contingency. If you're found guilty, there's a possibility that such stuff could be used in sentencing, but even there it's not really relevant to anything whether you're using hollow-points, lightened springs, skeletonized hammer, a lasergrip, or whether the shape of your nose is aquiline or bulbous.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Thank you again for your wisdom, User.
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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    If I had an opposing lawyer resort to my ammunition being reloaded, I'd be celebrating my impending acquittal or lawsuit victory.

    FWIW, I carry my reloads. Of course, I'm also in Nevada/Utah/Arizona. I can't speak for the culture in VA.

    The guy at the gun shop sells ammunition. Have you any idea what the profit margin is on self-defense ammunition?
    Last edited by MAC702; 06-12-2013 at 01:07 PM.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    If I had an opposing lawyer resort to my ammunition being reloaded, I'd be celebrating my impending acquittal or lawsuit victory.

    FWIW, I carry my reloads. Of course, I'm also in Nevada/Utah/Arizona. I can't speak for the culture in VA.

    The guy at the gun shop sells ammunition. Have you any idea what the profit margin is on self-defense ammunition?
    Except for a few exceptions I also carry my own reloads. I do not reload 9X18, so that is about the only factory ammo I use.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wolfhound View Post
    The solid copper bullets are still marketed just like the copper jacketed lead. Turned brass bullets DID get moved to the Armor Peircing category, damn it. I have seen some very light and very fast solid tin loads that intrigue me. 1900fps out of a .45ACP just seems cool.
    A little OT but it appears not all turned brass bullets were reclassified. I need to get out more because this happened in 2011.
    Barns now has exemption petitions at the ATF to allow 11 calibers they had reclassified.

    As to 1900 fps Wolfhound...just get a bigger gun My moderate gun I was wearing at dinner last night spits out 200 grain 45 bullets at a little over 1900fps even with the less than 4" barrel. Very Big Guns Save lives!

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    A little OT but it appears not all turned brass bullets were reclassified. I need to get out more because this happened in 2011.
    Barns now has exemption petitions at the ATF to allow 11 calibers they had reclassified.

    As to 1900 fps Wolfhound...just get a bigger gun My moderate gun I was wearing at dinner last night spits out 200 grain 45 bullets at a little over 1900fps even with the less than 4" barrel. Very Big Guns Save lives!
    Impossible, only Glocks save lives...
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
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    President Donald Trump

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Impossible, only Glocks save lives...
    Only when it's raining, otherwise...Glock's stay in the drawer.

    Although, I may get a 460 Rowland conversion for my 20.

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    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    I don' t remember exactly what I said before, and the search function on this website is notoriously ineffective. But I think the summaries of my opinion stated already were correct. I'd have used the technical legal term which is unpublishable, but starting with "bull" or alternatively, "horse" (a technical term coming from our Anglo-Saxon past legal history).

    If you have a good and necessary reason to shoot, then you've got a good and necessary reason to shoot. Nothing else matters at that point. If you're charged with a crime, the eight-hundred pound gorilla in the room is going to be the fact that you shot someone; everyone's going to know it and there's no point in dancing around it. So my position is that you should meet it head on, and be prepared to testify that, in the situation you were facing, it was a good thing you were adequately prepared to meet the contingency. If you're found guilty, there's a possibility that such stuff could be used in sentencing, but even there it's not really relevant to anything whether you're using hollow-points, lightened springs, skeletonized hammer, a lasergrip, or whether the shape of your nose is aquiline or bulbous.
    Thanks User As I posted, it sounded to me like the stuff that comes out of the south end of a north bound horse. I just thought it was a good question for those of us who choose to reload self defense ammo.

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