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Open Carry and the Opinions of Some "Experts"

KySIGGuy

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
49
Location
Louisville, KY
http://www.recoilweb.com/handgun-open-carry-proponents-respond-27619.html

Looks as though the article has spawned another one. It also appears that the article was recently edited and had some more "experts" weigh in.

*EDIT TWO 09:59 CST 13 JUN: I was able to speak to Steve Fisher and Brannon LeBouef late Tuesday and Wednesday morning. Their comments are now below. Stand by for later today (6/13/13) for a follow-up article with the result of conversations with Rick Ector, John Pierce and Ian Houston. I was not able to reach Kyle Lamb of Viking Tactics – my guess is he’s out somewhere they speak Alutiiq stalking a Kodiak with his pocket knife. I’ve also added the ‘Editorial’ label in the category section.

__________

“My stance on it is this—. I like the debate of it. [Open carry] is a right, it should be done, but it should be done smartly…I also believe in the surprise element of concealed carry, the advantage, but I understand that it is our right to carry a gun openly. Which, I have done on many occasions. We’ve been doing it since the invention of a firearm. It’s kind of like the debate of 9mm vs. 45. Who cares, as long as the person is smart about it and responsible? I see no difference between the two arguments. Training is important. If you’re going to open carry, get a good retention holster and also look at getting further training with someone like Craig Douglas ECQC, something that trains you on situational awareness and close combatives…” Steve Fisher Magpul Dynamics

__________

“I always have, and continue to, support the right of every American to openly carry firearms. I believe it to be a fundamental right and an important and historical component of our heritage. This country was “discovered” and built at the muzzle of an openly carried firearm, and it is the Constitutional promise and mandate of that same openly carried firearm that insures America for our children.
On the political front, it is a form of political expression whether active and deliberate or passive. While some choose the openly carried firearm as the “burning flag” or “back seat of the bus” as their tool of expression, I choose not to because I feel I am more effective in other ways. On the tactical front, I place a higher value on the element of surprise than I do the potential deterrent affect of an openly carried firearm. Concealed carry allows me to act, or not act, based on my decision rather than potentially having my hand forced due to the known presence of my firearm. In many cases, open carry removes options that concealed carry brings to the fight.
In situations where open carry is the only legal means, like for 18-21 year olds here in Louisiana, where concealed permits are next to impossible to get, or where environmental or tactical considerations dictate them, make the right decision for you. While the media and the internet tend to cast the brightest light on the negative elements of open carry, in my experience, most of the people who choose to do so, do it in a positive and responsible manner mostly unnoticed by those around them. At the end of the day, whether you choose to open carry or conceal carry, first and foremost—carry, and do so responsibly. Do so with the responsibility of training, gear choice, sound decision-making, a calm head, and an even demeanor…” Brannon LeBouef, NOLATAC Firearms
 

golddigger14s

Activist Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2010
Messages
2,068
Location
Lawton, OK USA
I love that element of "surprise" they keep spouting.
I for the most part don't like CC, there is no "element" of surprise. "Hey mister give me your wallet!" (BG pointing gun at me with no visible weapon). "OK, let me get my gun out of hiding first so I can "surprise" you!". OC option: BG1 to BG2 "Hey man let's go rob somebody else that is weak, and unarmed". BG's are inherently lazy, and have no desire for anything close to a fair fight.

From another forum from someone who "gets it":
"Reading this post brought to my attention the fact that most (if not all), of the SD accounts we read about in NRA & other publications seem to involve CC'ers and not OC'ers. In all the years (decades) of reading such stories, I don't remember ONE single article stating the victim "pulled his OC weapon".

The terms I always see in these articles are statements like: "the victim was able to retrieve a firearm" or something like: "the victim, who has a conceal carry permit pulled their firearm".

What this tells me is most BGs just don't choose to victimize a person who chooses to OC. But, may by accident pic a CCer to victimize because the look like any other victim out there. "
http://www.usacarry.com/forums/open-carry-discussion/37516-positive-inquiry-4.html
 

MSG Laigaie

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 10, 2011
Messages
3,239
Location
Philipsburg, Montana
........."Reading this post brought to my attention the fact that most (if not all), of the SD accounts we read about in NRA & other publications seem to involve CC'ers and not OC'ers. In all the years (decades) of reading such stories, I don't remember ONE single article stating the victim "pulled his OC weapon".........

YES! This is truth! I find it amazing that the general population is unaware of all those "non-events" that do not happen to us. We must all be leading sheltered lives (or is that visibly armed lives).

A group of us set up OC info tables at local events to invite people to OC. Inevitably a CCer will whisper, "I'm concealing now". Strange, the need for them to tell me that they are concealed as tho they were doing something bad. My first thought is always "Not now" to their "confession.
 

GarrettLawson

New member
Joined
Jun 25, 2013
Messages
1
Location
Houston
http://www.recoilweb.com/handgun-open-carry-proponents-respond-27619.html

Looks as though the article has spawned another one. It also appears that the article was recently edited and had some more "experts" weigh in.

*EDIT TWO 09:59 CST 13 JUN: I was able to speak to Steve Fisher and Brannon LeBouef late Tuesday and Wednesday morning. Their comments are now below. Stand by for later today (6/13/13) for a follow-up article with the result of conversations with Rick Ector, John Pierce and Ian Houston. I was not able to reach Kyle Lamb of Viking Tactics – my guess is he’s out somewhere they speak Alutiiq stalking a Kodiak with his pocket knife. I’ve also added the ‘Editorial’ label in the category section.

__________

“My stance on it is this—. I like the debate of it. [Open carry] is a right, it should be done, but it should be done smartly…I also believe in the surprise element of concealed carry, the advantage, but I understand that it is our right to carry a gun openly. Which, I have done on many occasions. We’ve been doing it since the invention of a firearm. It’s kind of like the debate of 9mm vs. 45. Who cares, as long as the person is smart about it and responsible? I see no difference between the two arguments. Training is important. If you’re going to open carry, get a good retention holster and also look at getting further training with someone like Craig Douglas ECQC, something that trains you on situational awareness and close combatives…” Steve Fisher Magpul Dynamics

__________

“I always have, and continue to, support the right of every American to openly carry firearms. I believe it to be a fundamental right and an important and historical component of our heritage. This country was “discovered” and built at the muzzle of an openly carried firearm, and it is the Constitutional promise and mandate of that same openly carried firearm that insures America for our children.
On the political front, it is a form of political expression whether active and deliberate or passive. While some choose the openly carried firearm as the “burning flag” or “back seat of the bus” as their tool of expression, I choose not to because I feel I am more effective in other ways. On the tactical front, I place a higher value on the element of surprise than I do the potential deterrent affect of an openly carried firearm. Concealed carry allows me to act, or not act, based on my decision rather than potentially having my hand forced due to the known presence of my firearm. In many cases, open carry removes options that concealed carry brings to the fight.
In situations where open carry is the only legal means, like for 18-21 year olds here in Louisiana, where concealed permits are next to impossible to get, or where environmental or tactical considerations dictate them, make the right decision for you. While the media and the internet tend to cast the brightest
led light on the negative elements of open carry, in my experience, most of the people who choose to do so, do it in a positive and responsible manner mostly unnoticed by those around them. At the end of the day, whether you choose to open carry or conceal carry, first and foremost—carry, and do so responsibly. Do so with the responsibility of training, gear choice, sound decision-making, a calm head, and an even demeanor…” Brannon LeBouef, NOLATAC Firearms
Just not able to understand why the article support open usage of arms.. It is just not acceptable.. We live social life or like animals?
 
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eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
Just not able to understand why the article support open usage of arms.. It is just not acceptable.. We live social life or like animals?

I don't get what you are driving at with "open usage of arms." Do you mean open carry of a properly holstered firearm? If so, that is a quite social thing to do. "An armed society is a polite society."

"Open usage of arms" could refer to deploying said properly holstered firearm. Whether or not that is "acceptable" would be dictated by the circumstances. If one is in fear of life or limb, "open usage of arms" would not only be acceptable, but wise. If one is deploying the firearm for no good reason...well, NO ONE here would advocate that.

Are you in the right place?
 

mtlhdtodd

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 25, 2007
Messages
123
Location
Federal Way, Wa
Just always keep in mind the meaning of "expert"

x - is the unknown factor.
spurt - is a drip under pressure

therefore "expert" - an unknown drip under pressure.
 

SFCRetired

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2008
Messages
1,764
Location
Montgomery, Alabama, USA
Just always keep in mind the meaning of "expert"

x - is the unknown factor.
spurt - is a drip under pressure

therefore "expert" - an unknown drip under pressure.

Not quite. "Ex" is a has-been and a "spurt" is a drip under pressure. So an "expert" is a has-been drip under pressure.

Btw, most of the rabid anti-OC "experts" I've encountered seem to be heavily invested in the concealed-carry permission ticket business. I will grant that there are those who give CC classes who are not that biased toward one mode of carry or the other, but they seem to be few and far in between.

Bottom line: Carry whichever way you're comfortable with (and that's legal where you are), but carry!
 

mjcromp

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 27, 2013
Messages
58
Location
Bend, Oregon, United States
I love when he goes back and forth. Talking about CC 99% of the time but in some states it's fine. And how he changed his perspective when he moved to CA. Forgive me if you live there but I'm waiting for that one big earthquake to snap off CA and put it right in the ocean! I have a CHL but sometimes I just choose to OC. Is it because I'm trying to be a "badass" No, it's because I can. Our forefathers gave us the right and I respect that. I have studied my local laws on where I can and can't and follow it. Today while CC on a walk with the family I removed my magazine and put it in my pocket at a local park due to my city having a ordinance against a loaded weapon in a park.
 

KySIGGuy

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
49
Location
Louisville, KY
The company that I work for provides office space for the United States Secret Service. I've talked to several of the agents staffed here about OC and CC, and everyone of them is very pro OC. Never once have they said that CC is better than OC, but they have agreed that both CC and OC have their strengths and weaknesses.
 

wrearick

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2013
Messages
650
Location
Virginia Beach, Va.
The element of surprise - (to be read very tongue in cheek) Time for me to get over my shock at this bad guy choosing me as his victim. How did my SA not see this coming. Okay, what do I want to do now... Well, he has the draw on me and I probably can't draw and fire before he does, so let me give him my wallet. I can't draw and shoot him in the back as he runs away because my life is no longer in danger......God I hope nobody finds out about this.....let me get my story straight if someone who knows I ALWAYS carry hears I got robbed......

1. too many innocents around.
2. I really didn't believe my life was in danger so I couldn't draw
3. There is such a hassle with the cops and paperwork if you are involved in a shooting, besides this was my favorite gun and I didn't want it taken as evidence, so it was easier to give him the $5 in my wallet.

ME - I would rather open carry and hopefully avoid the scenario completely. YMMV

P.S. (How many posts do I have to make before I can be called an "Expert" too?
 

Logan 5

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2012
Messages
696
Location
Utah
Here's my thoughts-

Open carry lets the criminal element know where you stand.
But it also sets you up for harassment by ignorant LEOs as well as people looking to see where you draw your line.

Concealed carry does not tell the criminal element where you stand, leaves you more open to crimes committed against you, and requires a permit.
But in the time of need it can be a bit slower than OC, but not always. Even if you have experience carry concealed, you still stand a chance of clothing or "something else" interfering with your "draw".
It is less intrusive than OC, which is ideal in some circumstances and locations.

If you wanna OC, go for it. I personally won't.
 

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
I attended a CCW course, that is mandated by my state, to apply for a CCW endorsement. The instructor is a LEO and his view is that OC is bad, very bad. Causes all sorts of problems. He intentionally misrepresented the law re firearms and CCW. He only ventured far enough into the OC topic to disparage and condemn OC and those who OC.

Paraphrasing his views on OC:
Yeah, well OC is legal in most places but expect to get hassled. Folks get nervous when they see a gun. Causes nothing but trouble for us and makes no sense anyway. Concealed is far better.

I took very good notes in my trainee guide and it is very unfortunate that the CCW instructor is a cop who, by default, is considered the final authority on CCW vs. OC, and the law, by knowledgeable students.

I sent him a short e-mail after the course describing his intentional misrepresentations of the law requesting clarification if I misunderstood his presentation or opinions. I received no response.

A LEO who teaches concealed carry courses and is required to cite and explain the law can do far more harm than good depending on his personal opinion re citizens and the carry of a properly holstered handgun.
 

Elm Creek Smith

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 7, 2013
Messages
204
Location
In the county.
Just not able to understand why the article support open usage of arms..

Too many big words? It's not like he advocated waving handguns around in public.

It is just not acceptable..

Why? Police carry their handguns openly. Armed Security Officers carry their handguns openly. Is that unacceptable?

We live social life or like animals?

So how I choose to carry my defensive handgun determines whether I am civilized (That's all I could get from "...live social life...") or an "animal[.]?"

Who made you the grand arbiter?

ECS
 
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Elm Creek Smith

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 7, 2013
Messages
204
Location
In the county.
Another person who hates OC just because he does not have the balls to do it himself. OC folks don't worry about CC folks, I can't understand how anyone can be so obsessive as these people. Is it jealousy or just outright stupidity?

I don't think the options are mutually exclusive.

ECS
 

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
I attended a CCW course, that is mandated by my state, to apply for a CCW endorsement. The instructor is a LEO and his view is that OC is bad, very bad. Causes all sorts of problems. He intentionally misrepresented the law re firearms and CCW. He only ventured far enough into the OC topic to disparage and condemn OC and those who OC.

Paraphrasing his views on OC:


I took very good notes in my trainee guide and it is very unfortunate that the CCW instructor is a cop who, by default, is considered the final authority on CCW vs. OC, and the law, by knowledgeable students.

I sent him a short e-mail after the course describing his intentional misrepresentations of the law requesting clarification if I misunderstood his presentation or opinions. I received no response.

A LEO who teaches concealed carry courses and is required to cite and explain the law can do far more harm than good depending on his personal opinion re citizens and the carry of a properly holstered handgun.

If the state mandates you take a class and the guy teaching the class does that crap, shouldn't there be a way to complain to the state to get it straightened out?
 

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
If the state mandates you take a class and the guy teaching the class does that crap, shouldn't there be a way to complain to the state to get it straightened out?
"The instructor is a LEO..."

Also, the indoor shooting range/gun shop is owned and operated by LEOs, both active and retired. Not much the "state" is gunna do to a bunch of LEOs. All I can do, and have done, is pass along my experiences and opinions regarding how they run their business and recommend that consumers shop elsewhere. But, it seems that location location location is the key for consumers. They are convenient and have a thriving business.
 

since9

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Messages
6,964
Location
Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
Just not able to understand why the article support open usage of arms.. It is just not acceptable.. We live social life or like animals?

Wow, Mr. One-Post Wonder... Were you the instructor in question?

I am an officer and a gentleman, Mr. Lawson. That is, a military officer, and I am retired. I've been in many situations both here in the U.S. and abroad where the carrying of any firearms was not permitted. In many other situations, the open carry of firearms was not permitted, but concealed carry was permitted. Then there are the situations where both OC and CC was permitted, even expected. Naturally, in the course of my military duties, OC was required, and CC was prohibited.

Absolutely none of these situations had anything to do with living like animals. Rather, all of them had to do with keeping the peace, living a civilized (not "social") life which, unfortunately, occasionally involves contact with humans who do act like animals.

Civilization has existed in one form or another for 10,000 years. Open carry of arms has always been acceptable in civilized society, until very recently, when some putz with a misplaced sense of propriety, if not hoplophobic paranoia, arbitrarily and capriciously deemed it "inappropriate."

Fortunately, most of American society refuses to listen. Open carry is at an all-time high, and protected under the laws of 44 of our 50 United States. I open carry all the time in my state, and rarely encounter anything more than a curious glance.

So, just out of curiosity, where are you from, Mr. Lawson? Chicago?
 
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