HB 937 hold your nose

NC-Heel said:

In 14-402 the CHP takes the place of a purchase permit. As far as NICS goes the CHP takes the place of the NICS check. You are confusing state statutes and federal Gun Control Act laws. With purchase permits repealed. Non CHP holders would walk in, fill out form 4473 and buy a firearm after they got a "go" from the FBI NICS. CHP holders would walk in, fill out form 4473, show their CHP and buy the firearm. The only change is for the "minorities and lower class people" as Walking Wolf calls them. They wouldn't have to ride a bus to the Sheriff's office and purchase a permit to buy a firearm. This would save them time and money and make it easier for them to arm themselves. That is why the purchase permit is racist in the first place.

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I am awaiting a call from NC Justice Academy on this question, I believe it is a rule as opposed to a statute. But with PPP now repealed the only way to buy a firearm without delays is through a CHP pushed by GRNC in attempt to limit firearms to the poor. Gun control is racist, PERIOD! But at least the PPP allowed residents the ability to purchase firearms without delays and hassles. Again how many members of GRNC are minorities? What is the percentage of minorities to whites holding CHPs? Why are there no free classes being offered for minorities at reduced rates, or free? Why are single mothers being denied the access to protect themselves to line the pockets of GRNC and instructors?

GRNC has gone far beyond PPP in regards to Jim Crow!

I received my call from Chad Thompson from NC Justice Academy. The use of a PPP for purchase of a firearm is NOT covered in NC statutes, but US Code. As both he and a FFL explained is that the feds have accepted the PPP as a acceptable form of background check for a firearm, both long gun and handgun. As long as there is no NC statute outlawing the PPP for a long gun background check it is acceptable. Unless you can cite that it is illegal, it IS legal.

Can you cite any of that other than you made a phone call. Purchase permits are a North Carolina thing. Virgina you do not need a purchase permit. South Carolina you do not need a permit. With a purchase permit you still have to submit to a NICS check. When I buy rifles in S.C. I have to submit to an NICS check and I usually get a 3 day wait. Having a purchase permit does not speed up the transaction now. If N.C. had no purchase permit then they would have the same system as S.C. Buy a pistol or rifle and have a NICS check. Have a CHP and there is no NICS check. Pretty sure Virginia has the same system in place.

North Carolina General Statute 14-402 lays this out for you.

§ 14‑402. Sale of certain weapons without permit forbidden.

(a) It is unlawful for any person, firm, or corporation in this State to sell, give away, or transfer, or to purchase or receive, at any place within this State from any other place within or without the State any pistol unless: (i) a license or permit is first obtained under this Article by the purchaser or receiver from the sheriff of the county in which the purchaser or receiver resides; or (ii) a valid North Carolina concealed handgun permit is held under Article 54B of this Chapter by the purchaser or receiver who must be a resident of the State at the time of the purchase.


If this statute is repealed then it would fall back to the Gun Control Act and require a NICS check only for everyone. The BATFE has already stated a state authorized concealed carry card can substitute a background check.

And on a side note I just called that gunstore and on the phone the guy told me I could buy a pistol or long gun with a County Sheriff issued purchase permit and no NICS background check. The guy on the phone said if I have been given a purchase permit I am good to go, no more checks. Time to make a call to the ATF.

I said nothing about CHP and asked him the same question two different ways. Kind of threw me off track when he said pistol too. I was only asking about rifles.

NC-Heel said:

Can you cite any of that other than you made a phone call. Purchase permits are a North Carolina thing. Virgina you do not need a purchase permit. South Carolina you do not need a permit. With a purchase permit you still have to submit to a NICS check. When I buy rifles in S.C. I have to submit to an NICS check and I usually get a 3 day wait. Having a purchase permit does not speed up the transaction now. If N.C. had no purchase permit then they would have the same system as S.C. Buy a pistol or rifle and have a NICS check. Have a CHP and there is no NICS check. Pretty sure Virginia has the same system in place.

North Carolina General Statute 14-402 lays this out for you.

§ 14‑402. Sale of certain weapons without permit forbidden.

(a) It is unlawful for any person, firm, or corporation in this State to sell, give away, or transfer, or to purchase or receive, at any place within this State from any other place within or without the State any pistol unless: (i) a license or permit is first obtained under this Article by the purchaser or receiver from the sheriff of the county in which the purchaser or receiver resides; or (ii) a valid North Carolina concealed handgun permit is held under Article 54B of this Chapter by the purchaser or receiver who must be a resident of the State at the time of the purchase.


If this statute is repealed then it would fall back to the Gun Control Act and require a NICS check only for everyone. The BATFE has already stated a state authorized concealed carry card can substitute a background check.

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You know the rules, if it is not illegal it is legal, and Chad Thompson from NCJA confirmed such, throw all the racist GRNC tantrums you like, but if you cannot refute it with a cite, bugger off.

PS anybody who does not wish to get a elitist GRNC permission card can contact the feds to get a pin number to not deal with the delays. NO CHP needed no expensive class, no expensive fees, and no long arse wait. I will contact BATF for the procedure tomorrow, and post it since I have never done it. Maybe Eye will make a visit because he has some knowledge with this.

:banana:

NC-Heel said:

And on a side note I just called that gunstore and on the phone the guy told me I could buy a pistol or long gun with a County Sheriff issued purchase permit and no NICS background check. The guy on the phone said if I have been given a purchase permit I am good to go, no more checks. Time to make a call to the ATF.

I said nothing about CHP and asked him the same question two different ways. Kind of threw me off track when he said pistol too. I was only asking about rifles.

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As a FFL myself the gunstore owner is correct. In NC if you bring in a PPP I don't have to do a NICS check on you. Same with a CHP. That PPP covers both pistols and rifles.

I for one am happy about the ppp being repealed.
My sheriff won't give me a ppp. Denied.
My options
Sue or have my record expunged.
I have the money for neither. I can pass a 4473 no problem. Bought an AR not to long ago.
So Fing stupid.

WTFOVER said:

As a FFL myself the gunstore owner is correct. In NC if you bring in a PPP I don't have to do a NICS check on you. Same with a CHP. That PPP covers both pistols and rifles.

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So no one in N.C. has to have a NICS check at the time of purchase for a pistol? When did that start?

I see it now. I have had a CHP forever so I did not know this. No wonder the media was making a big stink about people having purchase permits and committing crimes. You can pay $5 per permit and get the background check. Go commit crimes and you got 5 years to use the permit.

Sorry Wolf you were correct. No wonder every gang banger has a gat now-a-days. If all you need is a 5 year old purchase permit to walk out of a gun store unchecked who can't get one.

I dont see how repealing the PPP is a bad thing. For non CHP holders, they would now not be required to get a PPP before buying a hand gun at a dealer, only pass a 4473 instacheck and you would not have to get a PPP for a private sale handgun. Who on earth is claiming to be in favor of liberty but also in favor of these dumb purchase permits? As it is now, if you do not have a CCW and you see a smoking deal on a glock from a neighbor or at a gun store, you have to go to the sheriffs office, pay 5$, and wait and by the time you get back to the seller, the gun is gone. Repealing the PPP is HUGE. Its a great thing.

Even if the repeal of the provisions in the CC statutes broaden CC only, why not support it? Anything that broadens freedom is a good thing.

brutus1776 said:

I dont see how repealing the PPP is a bad thing. For non CHP holders, they would now not be required to get a PPP before buying a hand gun at a dealer, only pass a 4473 instacheck and you would not have to get a PPP for a private sale handgun. Who on earth is claiming to be in favor of liberty but also in favor of these dumb purchase permits? As it is now, if you do not have a CCW and you see a smoking deal on a glock from a neighbor or at a gun store, you have to go to the sheriffs office, pay 5$, and wait and by the time you get back to the seller, the gun is gone. Repealing the PPP is HUGE. Its a great thing.

Even if the repeal of the provisions in the CC statutes broaden CC only, why not support it? Anything that broadens freedom is a good thing.

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What wait, I have several PPP, I can get 5 a month and stockpile them. Wife just bought a gun, NO WAIT, NO DELAY. Just hand over her PPP that she has had for over a year. If you did not notice the PPP is good for 5 years. So if you are say 2 hours from home and get delayed. Well you could get a motel room for over $100, or you could drive home and drive back, or you can just hand over your PPP.

I was not aware of the insta check pin number until recently, it seems not to be widely publicized. But hopefully the word can get out so everybody without one of those gov boot licking cards can buy a gun without hassle. I have talked to a few FFL in the last couple days over this, and they said many people get a CHP for no other reason to buy a gun without a hassle. Just how stupid is that! And YOU think the PPP is bad.

Hopefully the PPPs that holders have will still remain valid after the law is repealed. As it has been explained to me, by NCJA, the acceptance has nothing to do with state law, but US code. So ours should be good until they expire, others with them do not throw them away. But now I know about the pin it is a better option. Wonder why GRNC have not been informing their base about the pin, oooops that might deter more CC trainng money. As for why not support it? IT IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL! It is a clear blatant attempt to do away with OC! PV has already made his feeling towards OC clear, he hates it, and is trying to eliminate it. Why should any OCer support a law that shoves a shive up our arse?

Money makes the world go around, the world go around. Money makes the GRNC go around, GRNC go around.

I was mulling it over and I'm not sure I can go along with the viewpoint that the CHP is racist. I can definately go with a viewpoint that the CHP is classist (is that a word?) - basically, like WW said, it discriminates against those who are financially challenged. One can go out and purchase a relatively inexpensive yet reliable handgun and holster (currently, after purchasing the bs PPP) and they now have the means to defend themselves. If they wish to carry concealed, then they have to dish out extra cash for a CHP class and then more cash for the CHP itself. While training is a good thing, I don't consider the CHP class to be training - not in the least. With the upcoming passage of HB937, the CHP crowd will now have more rights than those that choose not to have the CHP and carry openly. So, since the CHP is classist, the new laws are definately classist as well.

I have considered letting my CHP expire when its time is up, but I still have use for it when travelling to states that require permission to carry. My most visited states are SC, TX, and FL - all of which are CC only.

As a side note, I'm glad that I learned some things about how the FFL dealers sell guns with respect to CHPs and the NICS. From reading the statutes that are being repealed, it looked as though the CHP being used for pistol purchases was based on NC statute. I now know that the acceptance of the CHP comes from the feds.

WalkingWolf said:

I am awaiting a call from NC Justice Academy on this question, I believe it is a rule as opposed to a statute. But with PPP now repealed the only way to buy a firearm without delays is through a CHP pushed by GRNC in attempt to limit firearms to the poor. Gun control is racist, PERIOD! But at least the PPP allowed residents the ability to purchase firearms without delays and hassles. Again how many members of GRNC are minorities? What is the percentage of minorities to whites holding CHPs? Why are there no free classes being offered for minorities at reduced rates, or free? Why are single mothers being denied the access to protect themselves to line the pockets of GRNC and instructors?

GRNC has gone far beyond PPP in regards to Jim Crow!

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My friend, I think you are seriously over-reacting and seeing things that just are not there in regards to this portion of the bill. The only intention of repealing the PPP is to stop local sheriffs from creating so many different conditions to get them in the first place.

Denying single mothers the access to protect themselves? Really?

Somehow, you've taken an innocuous portion of a larger bill and have, from that, made a connection that led you to believe that GRNC is now a racist, elitist, white-only organization that seeks to delay single mothers their ability to protect themselves? While we're on that subject, you're forgetting the 3-14 day avg wait time it takes a sheriff to issue a PPP in the first place.

And all of this is because you believe that GRNC wishes to do all of that work so it can prevent minorities and the poor from getting a handgun or rifle, if they happen to randomly get a "wait" response from tehir NCIS check instead of a "go"? How many minorities and single mothers in this state actually get a "wait" response from an NCIS check in the first place, ten maybe in any given month? 20? less? Do you really believe that all of their time and effort is designed to prevent those ten or so people from getting a gun?

Come on, man.

I can understand you thinking that they somehow hate OC. I don't agree with that much, mostly because I know better. But still, I can see stretching the facts around just hard enough to have that fit- sorta. In a way. But this latest conclusion you've reached is seriously bordering on complete lunacy.

GRNC hates minorities, single mothers, and poor people? In an effort to eliminate a corrupt permit system in the state to speed up the process of gun buying, you really think that they want to, instead, make it harder for 5-10 people a month who happen to get something other than a "GO" from an NCIS check?

On top of that, you're also not mentioning that every county has provisions to issue immediate permits based on a demonstrated threat. In other words, if someone (yes, even minorities and single parents) demonstrates that they are under an immediate danger or threat, they can be issued a permit to by a handgun on the spot with no wait at all.

But what about the other few thousand people (of all color, marital, and economic status, that is) per month that will have the ability to buy a gun at a gun store right then instead of having to go beg the sheriff for a permit that will take over a week to get to them in the first place? Most people do get a "go" result from their NCIS check, in fact. Although there are glitches and false reports come back here and there, the clear majority of people in this state who go through the NCIS check will have a "go" if they are legal to buy.

How about if you want to by your friend's pistol this weekend, but you're fresh out of permits. Under Federal law, you can, well, just buy it, but due to these stupid NC laws, you now have to run down to the sheriff and beg him for another permit if you don't have any, and then wait anywhere from 3-21 days to get it, depending on the county.

You're a good man, Wolf. You really are, and much of your reasoning that I see on this board is sound. But I have to disagree on this one. I never thought I'd see a gun rights advocate in favor of retaining a state's racist-based gun permit system simply because they think that one of the groups that is pushing for it is racist and hates single parents, based on a serious of incorrect assumptions.

It just doesn't make sense.

Be well.

Gun control has always been racist, do some research. PPP was a racist law, before insta check, racism was the roots. But by federal law it can no longer be administered on the base of racism. The cost is relative low, and it's use for long guns is very beneficial, as well as handguns. It is not perfect but it is hell of a lot better than taking it away completely on another trip to push people towards CHPs, which is gun control, and it is difficult for minorities and lower income class, AND SINGLE MOTHERS.

There is little doubt the goal of GRNC is to not only promote a privilege, but to eliminate a right. That is racism! You don't think he does not know how difficult it is for minorities that have to work two or more jobs, and have little extra funds? You don't think he does not know about how costly child care and extra time is for single mothers? There is no doubt about this, remove OC and many minorities will be denied the right to self defense.

Sometimes I wonder if the OC crowd would love to see all CC carry laws voided, without realizing that any law that is pro-gun (OC or CC) does make us safer and benefits every gun owner and 2A advocates.

Go for the "all or nothing" stance and you will end up with nothing. Life is a compromise, for those that are willing to compromise, very few are able or powerful enough to "have it their way", or you should really attempt to grasp the meaning of the word reality. I don't care how much whitewash or crap you attempt to coat that with, nothing is nothing.

WalkingWolf said:

Gun control has always been racist, do some research. PPP was a racist law, before insta check, racism was the roots. But by federal law it can no longer be administered on the base of racism. The cost is relative low, and it's use for long guns is very beneficial, as well as handguns. It is not perfect but it is hell of a lot better than taking it away completely on another trip to push people towards CHPs, which is gun control, and it is difficult for minorities and lower income class, AND SINGLE MOTHERS.

There is little doubt the goal of GRNC is to not only promote a privilege, but to eliminate a right. That is racism! You don't think he does not know how difficult it is for minorities that have to work two or more jobs, and have little extra funds? You don't think he does not know about how costly child care and extra time is for single mothers? There is no doubt about this, remove OC and many minorities will be denied the right to self defense.

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I agree with the first paragraph. Gun laws are racist. The PPP is a great example of such racist law. I say we repeal it once and for all. I also say let's repeal the Federal mandate for the NCIS check, too- but I don't think that will happen any time soon lol. But, we can try. Eliminating the PPP is a great step in that direction at the state level. I'm all for eliminating the CHP, too. Get rid of it and let people OC or CC as they see fit, with no mandated classes or cards. I'm all for it.

We agree on those kinds of things.

But what GRNC is doing is not funneling things so that only those with CHPs can own guns and eliminating OC. In this case, they are pushing to eliminate the abuse that goes on from county to county in terms of people having to get the permits. Some counties are a little better than others, but overall, it's still a pain that can take as long as 3 weeks in some counties. Three weeks!

And as i mentioned earlier, every county has a means to bypass the wait times if there is a demonstrated threat of danger or loss of life. The person who feels they are being threatened just has to go and apply for it and in many cases the permit is issued within minutes. So the time can be eliminated, as well.

I just feel that this PPP is not worth saving, even though it can be manipulated to our advantage at times. Sure, we can stock pile them in some counties who issue them regularly, but that kind of law that exists on the books can always be changed to block that kind of thing. I feel it's better to eliminate the law off the books in the first place so it can't be manipulated later on.

You do bring up a great point with the situation with false flags that come back on NCIS checks, though. In that case, the PPP can be used to a purchaser's advantage, but that is really skirting the law more than anything. It's not designed for that lol- it just happens to be a situation where someone would fall through the cracks, in effect bypassing the NCIS check with an old permit. I an see where you are coming from, though.

In totality, I'd love to see all of these permits tossed in a pile and burned. The PPP and the CHP both need to go. Sadly, we can only deal with one of them right now. If we can get the PPP out of the way and gone, we can start dealing with the CHP and eventually (hopefully) chip away at that stone.

As far as our other disagreements go, I won't beat that horse here lol. We know where we both stand so I'll just e-shake on that one.

Take care.

XD40sc said:

Sometimes I wonder if the OC crowd would love to see all CC carry laws voided, without realizing that any law that is pro-gun (OC or CC) does make us safer and benefits every gun owner and 2A advocates.

Go for the "all or nothing" stance and you will end up with nothing. Life is a compromise, for those that are willing to compromise, very few are able or powerful enough to "have it their way", or you should really attempt to grasp the meaning of the word reality. I don't care how much whitewash or crap you attempt to coat that with, nothing is nothing.

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I OC exclusively and do not have the CHP.

I do not want to see any CC law voided, I just want to eventually see the requirement to obtain and carry a CHP in order to CC disappear.

But I understand how the system works very well. I completely understand the idea of compromise in order to obtain a little ground. I understand the give and take. I'm probably just more patient with things than others, I guess. I hope to see progress in my life time, but understand it mat not be possible.

Rotor you are wasting your time with me defending GRNC, Paul is the face of GRNC, and he already made his feelings known about OC. It is clear that he wants to make carry in parks, restaurants, and eventually every business illegal without a CHP. As long as he continues to be successful, he will keep pushing. The man admitted he hates OC, that only CHP holders are sane, and sober, and can be trusted with firearms.

Things that need to change within the GRNC in order to get hardcore OCers like myself, are first get rid of PV. Second stop pushing ONLY CC, in bills, start actually trying to get minorities into GRNC ranks. Provide free classes for those who cannot afford them, along with finacial assistance for cost of CHP. Provide child care for single mothers to help them get their CHP. NOW all this is just what I suggest, and they do not have to do it. But every time GRNC comes up with this crap, I am going to tell them to go "Fork Themselves".

PV is winning for now, but nobody has mobilized the base of minorities as to what GRNC is doing, the media has not even caught on, but they will Monday. And the media is frothing at the mouth to kill concealed carry. I will probably send a email to Obama, I am surprised he has missed the unfairness of the requirements of concealed carry to the poor. That is what happens when a organization screws with others rights.

WalkingWolf said:

Rotor you are wasting your time with me defending GRNC, Paul is the face of GRNC, and he already made his feelings known about OC. It is clear that he wants to make carry in parks, restaurants, and eventually every business illegal without a CHP. As long as he continues to be successful, he will keep pushing. The man admitted he hates OC, that only CHP holders are sane, and sober, and can be trusted with firearms.

Things that need to change within the GRNC in order to get hardcore OCers like myself, are first get rid of PV. Second stop pushing ONLY CC, in bills, start actually trying to get minorities into GRNC ranks. Provide free classes for those who cannot afford them, along with finacial assistance for cost of CHP. Provide child care for single mothers to help them get their CHP. NOW all this is just what I suggest, and they do not have to do it. But every time GRNC comes up with this crap, I am going to tell them to go "Fork Themselves".

PV is winning for now, but nobody has mobilized the base of minorities as to what GRNC is doing, the media has not even caught on, but they will Monday. And the media is frothing at the mouth to kill concealed carry. I will probably send a email to Obama, I am surprised he has missed the unfairness of the requirements of concealed carry to the poor. That is what happens when a organization screws with others rights.

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Well, I wasn't trying to change your mind about GRNC. I was just talking in general. There's a lot of misinformation about them out there, after all

I know how you feel about them and like I mentioned a while back, I won't try to change your mind about what you feel they are. I really don't think they are going to get into the child care industry anytime soon, though. I do know they are open to everyone, not just white males. To label them racist is actually not true. I know this because I sign up people from all races and economic backgrounds during the times I volunteer with them. It makes no difference to PV, myself, or anyone that I'm aware of. If I thought it did or if I even sniffed a hint of any of that kind of racist crap with them, I wouldn't waste a minute volunteering with them.

But again, this isn't to sway your mind about them. I know how you feel and understand. This is just to set the record straight for others.

After all, being a recently laid-off, unemployed, non-CHP holding, economically-challenged minority myself, I wouldn't put up with such a thing for one minute.

WalkingWolf said:

Rotor you are wasting your time with me defending GRNC, Paul is the face of GRNC, and he already made his feelings known about OC. It is clear that he wants to make carry in parks, restaurants, and eventually every business illegal without a CHP. As long as he continues to be successful, he will keep pushing. The man admitted he hates OC, that only CHP holders are sane, and sober, and can be trusted with firearms.

Things that need to change within the GRNC in order to get hardcore OCers like myself, are first get rid of PV. Second stop pushing ONLY CC, in bills, start actually trying to get minorities into GRNC ranks. Provide free classes for those who cannot afford them, along with finacial assistance for cost of CHP. Provide child care for single mothers to help them get their CHP. NOW all this is just what I suggest, and they do not have to do it. But every time GRNC comes up with this crap, I am going to tell them to go "Fork Themselves".

PV is winning for now, but nobody has mobilized the base of minorities as to what GRNC is doing, the media has not even caught on, but they will Monday. And the media is frothing at the mouth to kill concealed carry. I will probably send a email to Obama, I am surprised he has missed the unfairness of the requirements of concealed carry to the poor. That is what happens when a organization screws with others rights.

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I understand you have an "all or nothing" position. How is that working for you, how do you expect it will actually change anything. Are you using your LEO status as your authority to OC, or do you not qualify as a retired LEO? I had a student that was a reserve deputy, and OC's to class (community college), which wasn't an issue with me, but was for many, especially that didn't know he was a LEO.

The person that refuses to work within the system won't change the law, but will create a great deal of unnecessary issues for themselves and their cause. We all have a desire to tell those that are wrong to "f" off, but if they have the authority we also understand that is counter productive. You were a LEO, if some one you stopped told you to F-off, I'm sure you would have let them go on their way, right?

OBTW, I carried today, both CC and OC, and I honored the "no guns allowed" sign at the building my dentists office is in.