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Thread: Another article hating on OC

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Another article hating on OC

    http://www.recoilweb.com/to-open-car...ead-27357.html

    I’m speaking specifically to the the practical application of open carry as a daily “tactical” choice – I question the wisdom of day-to-day reason open carry for the “everyman”
    Quotes from several people who (mostly) agree with him - OC is stupid, dangerous, showoff-y, etc.

  2. #2
    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    Do you think there are any valid points at all? I took notice to the comments on retention.

    I see the bulk of the article as general ranting/bashing and then injecting "professional opinion" just to make himself seem less biased, but that isn't to say that none of the professionals had generally good advice.

  3. #3
    Regular Member MyWifeSaidYes's Avatar
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    Ohio...

    ...Shall-issue concealed carry: legal since 2004.

    ...Open carry: legal since 1803.

    We were here first, bit-chez!
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    What does a caring, sensitive person feel when they are forced to use a handgun to stop a threat?

    Recoil.

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    Regular Member compmanio365's Avatar
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    Notice how every one of the dissenters is a self-described "tactical" junkie, who probably sells training classes and material for concealed carry and "tactical" guides. OC is a threat to their bottom line, so of course they will speak out against it.

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    Cliff notes: "Oh, sure, you can open carry, but why? Being able to have a criminal approach you, demand your wallet, and you turn the tables by pulling your gun from the SOB, you can get the drop on the bad guy and end the threat."

    That's pretty much everyone's opinion. A hero fantasy situation to justify CC. How about not having the criminal approach you to begin with?

    The article is pure crap. Opinion galore, basically insulting anyone who OCs. Did the NRA fund this author?

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    Regular Member SFCRetired's Avatar
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    Open Carry is, by nature, both defensive and a very strong deterrent to the majority of criminals. As one responder to that article wrote, paraphrased, "Criminals are not ninjas; they look for soft targets."

    It has been my experience open carrying that the "gangsta wannabe" types decide they have urgent business elsewhere as soon as they see that a) I am armed and b) that I am not walking along with my head in the clouds, but am alert to what and who is around me.

    Concealed Carry is, by nature, both offensive and lacking in deterrent value if the weapon is properly concealed. There are situations and circumstances where concealed may be a better choice, mostly because of the sensitivities of others. Church services, in most instances, are one of those situations where concealed carry is better to avoid distracting others from the services. That, to me, is just common courtesy.

    I had a similar conversation with a noted "firearms instructor" who could only reply by belittling me and not addressing what I actually said. This seems to be a common thread, not with concealed carriers, but with some of those who make large sums of money from teaching permit courses or other courses connected to concealed carry.
    "Happiness is a warm shotgun!!"
    "I am neither a pessimist nor a cynic. I am, rather, a realist."
    "The most dangerous things I've ever encountered were a Second Lieutenant with a map and a compass and a Private who was bored and had time on his hands."

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    I though this was great.

    This is HossUSMC's rebuttal to the article. He has a blog rebuttal linked here that's informative.

    then there's his much shorter video here

    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

    NRA Member

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    Regular Member MyWifeSaidYes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SFCRetired View Post
    ...Church services, in most instances, are one of those situations where concealed carry is better to avoid distracting others from the services. That, to me, is just common courtesy...
    While I agree with most of your post, this part has me confused.

    Should I not OC in a restaurant because it would distract others from dining?

    Should I not OC in a theatre because it would distract others from the movie?

    Should I not OC at the pool because it would distract othersfrom swimming? (I sit on the lawn and watch my kids)

    Should I not OC in a grocery store because it would distract others from shopping?

    Should I not OC...do you see my point? If the pastor/priest/rabbi/etc. is okay with you carrying openly, would you?

    One of the ideas behind OC is to normalize it in the minds of other people. Some might call it "desensitizing" and that's probably accurate.

    When you fail to draw your handgun and start shooting your fellow worshippers, they will pay less attention to you and more to the speaker up front.
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    What does a caring, sensitive person feel when they are forced to use a handgun to stop a threat?

    Recoil.

  9. #9
    Regular Member SFCRetired's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyWifeSaidYes View Post
    While I agree with most of your post, this part has me confused.

    Should I not OC in a restaurant because it would distract others from dining?

    Should I not OC in a theatre because it would distract others from the movie?

    Should I not OC at the pool because it would distract othersfrom swimming? (I sit on the lawn and watch my kids)

    Should I not OC in a grocery store because it would distract others from shopping?

    Should I not OC...do you see my point? If the pastor/priest/rabbi/etc. is okay with you carrying openly, would you?

    One of the ideas behind OC is to normalize it in the minds of other people. Some might call it "desensitizing" and that's probably accurate.

    When you fail to draw your handgun and start shooting your fellow worshippers, they will pay less attention to you and more to the speaker up front.
    To me, and bear in mind that my military training has a lot to do with it, a worship service is an equine of an entirely different hue than the activities you listed. Were the priest, rabbi, pastor, drunk off the street OK with it, that might be different. I mentioned my military training; way back in the Dark Ages, when I was a young soldier, we were taught that one does not enter a place of Divine Worship "under arms".
    "Happiness is a warm shotgun!!"
    "I am neither a pessimist nor a cynic. I am, rather, a realist."
    "The most dangerous things I've ever encountered were a Second Lieutenant with a map and a compass and a Private who was bored and had time on his hands."

  10. #10
    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    If you think about it Concealed carry is everything that's frustrating or dead wrong about carrying a firearm.

    Box of holsters - concealed carry guy (or gal)

    Carries their gun in a different place almost every time - concealed carry guy (or gal)

    Carries their gun in a fannypack, man purse, (women) purse, vest, shirt, or other odd place (ankle?)

    Drops their gun in the store playing with their belt or pants - yep. concealed carry guy (or gal)

    Leaves their gun on the back of a toilet - concealed carry guy (or gal) (except for some cops)

    Shoots themselves while trying to re-holster (usually after playing with their piece) - concealed carry guy (or gal)

    Gets tangled up in their shirt or jacket or vest trying to draw - concealed carry guy (or gal)
    ---

    OC usually has a one or two good holsters, wears the gun in the same place, doesn't screw around with their gun, doesn't drop it or leave it in the bathroom.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyb View Post
    Cliff notes: "Oh, sure, you can open carry, but why? Being able to have a criminal approach you, demand your wallet, and you turn the tables by pulling your gun from the SOB, you can get the drop on the bad guy and end the threat."

    That's pretty much everyone's opinion. A hero fantasy situation to justify CC. How about not having the criminal approach you to begin with?

    The article is pure crap. Opinion galore, basically insulting anyone who OCs. Did the NRA fund this author?
    The difference between OC and CC is the same as the difference between uniformed officers and undercover officers which is the same as the difference between marked and unmarked police cars: deterrence v. playing gotcha. In the formers, you announce to the bad guys that they need to find a softer target. The latters are all designed to let bad things happen and then be able to respond and be the hero.

    Real heroes stop the bad things from happening in the first place, usually never knowing that they have done so and never getting any hero-worship.

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    Quote Originally Posted by joanie View Post
    .
    loves Chachi ... could not resist


    Back to the post ... yea, we should support open carry ... that's why we are here, right?

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    Activist Member golddigger14s's Avatar
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    I for the most part don't like CC, there is no "element" of surprise as they preach. "Hey mister give me your wallet!" (BG pointing gun at me with no visible weapon). "OK, let me get my gun out of hiding first so I can "surprise" you!". OC option: BG1 to BG2 "Hey man let's go rob somebody else that is weak, and unarmed". BG's are inherently lazy, and have no desire for anything close to a fair fight.
    "The beauty of the Second Amenment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." Thomas Jefferson
    "Evil often triumphs, but never conquers." Joseph Roux
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    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    State Researcher lockman's Avatar
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    Another article hating on OC

    Quote Originally Posted by SFCRetired View Post
    To me, and bear in mind that my military training has a lot to do with it, a worship service is an equine of an entirely different hue than the activities you listed. Were the priest, rabbi, pastor, drunk off the street OK with it, that might be different. I mentioned my military training; way back in the Dark Ages, when I was a young soldier, we were taught that one does not enter a place of Divine Worship "under arms".
    Sheep ready for the slaughter? Who's duty to protect the worshipers if not the worshipers?

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    Regular Member ron73440's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by golddigger14s View Post
    I for the most part don't like CC, there is no "element" of surprise as they preach. "Hey mister give me your wallet!" (BG pointing gun at me with no visible weapon). "OK, let me get my gun out of hiding first so I can "surprise" you!". OC option: BG1 to BG2 "Hey man let's go rob somebody else that is weak, and unarmed". BG's are inherently lazy, and have no desire for anything close to a fair fight.
    I think the only time CC would be an advantage is if you're somewhere and the BG tries to rob it, not knowing anyone has a weapon.

    Maybe I'm a wuss, but I would rather have him not decide to be a dumbass in my presence, and not even know that OC was the reason my trip was so boring.
    What I told my wife when she said my steel Baby Eagle .45 was heavy, "Heavy is good, heavy is reliable, if it doesn't work you could always hit him with it."-Boris the Blade

    MOLON LABE

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    Quote Originally Posted by ron73440 View Post
    I think the only time CC would be an advantage is if you're somewhere and the BG tries to rob it, not knowing anyone has a weapon.

    Maybe I'm a wuss, but I would rather have him not decide to be a dumbass in my presence, and not even know that OC was the reason my trip was so boring.
    If he knew someone had a gun because that someone was OCing, he would almost surely not rob the joint in the first place.

    Google Kennesaw, Georgia Waffle House.

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    Regular Member SFCRetired's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lockman View Post
    Sheep ready for the slaughter? Who's duty to protect the worshipers if not the worshipers?
    Oh, I agree with you. No one is responsible for my, and my wife's, safety but me. Church is one of the very few places where I would carry concealed. Reason being is that there are a bunch of old ladies (of both genders) who would have a hissy fit if they saw a firearm.

    FWIW, the major reason I attend the church I do is that they have a very active ministry for persons of my wife's ethnicity. I will also say that the minister preaches a pretty good sermon.
    Last edited by SFCRetired; 06-16-2013 at 09:45 PM. Reason: left out a word
    "Happiness is a warm shotgun!!"
    "I am neither a pessimist nor a cynic. I am, rather, a realist."
    "The most dangerous things I've ever encountered were a Second Lieutenant with a map and a compass and a Private who was bored and had time on his hands."

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    Quote Originally Posted by SFCRetired View Post
    I mentioned my military training; way back in the Dark Ages, when I was a young soldier, we were taught that one does not enter a place of Divine Worship "under arms".
    Quote Originally Posted by SFCRetired View Post
    Church is one of the very few places where I carry concealed.
    !
    Last edited by Nightmare; 06-14-2013 at 11:47 AM.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member sraacke's Avatar
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    Well, I'm atheist. I have no problem carrying in churches and have done so many times. If I'm in a church I'm going to be armed. As soon as the wedding, funeral, baptism or whatever reason I'm there is over I'll leave but I'm not leaving my gun behind just because I'm in a Church.
    President/ Founding Member
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    www.laopencarry.org

  21. #21
    Regular Member SFCRetired's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    !
    Thanks for pointing out my error. I left out one word, "would", meaning I would carry concealed if I could overcome my strong reluctance to carry in a place of worship. For what it is worth, I am involved in some discussions with the ministry of my church concerning this very issue.
    "Happiness is a warm shotgun!!"
    "I am neither a pessimist nor a cynic. I am, rather, a realist."
    "The most dangerous things I've ever encountered were a Second Lieutenant with a map and a compass and a Private who was bored and had time on his hands."

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    Activist Member golddigger14s's Avatar
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    I consider myself somewhat religious, but VERY RARELY go to a church. My feeling is that God gave the gift of weapon craftsmanship to some, just like the ability to be a doctor. So I would have no problem going into a place of worship armed. I might go concealed just to ensure that my presence didn't take away from the message being presented. Look at the events that took place in Colorado in 2007:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Co...Life_shootings
    "The beauty of the Second Amenment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." Thomas Jefferson
    "Evil often triumphs, but never conquers." Joseph Roux
    http://nwfood.shelfreliance.com

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    Regular Member MyWifeSaidYes's Avatar
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    1999. London, England. Naked man with sword. Eleven people wounded. In a church.

    1999. Utah. Seventy-year-old man. Kills 2, wounds 4. In a church.

    1999. Texas. Christian rock concert. Seven dead, seven wounded. In a church.

    2001. Kentucky. Husband shoots wife and bystander. In a church.

    2002. New York. Former mental patient. Kills priest and a parishioner. In a church.

    2002. Missouri. Four monks shot. Two die. In a monastery. Thats a church, right?

    2003. Georgia. Woman shoots pastor. And her own mother. In a church.

    2005. Wisconsin. Seven killed. Four wounded. In a church.

    2005. Georgia. Former church security guard. Died by gunshot. At the same church.

    2006. Louisiana. Four family members killed. Shot by another family member. In a church.

    2007. Missouri. Pastor killed. Two deacons killed. Five others wounded. In a church.

    2008. Tennessee. Youth performance. Gunman kills 2, wounds 7. In a church.

    2009. Illinois. Man shoots pastor. Gun jams. Several wounded by knife. In a church.

    2010. California. Three hoods. Three guns. Only two wounded. In a church.

    2013. Ashtabula, Ohio. Easter morning. Son shoots father. Any guess as to where this occured?

  24. #24
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyWifeSaidYes View Post
    1999. London, England. Naked man with sword. Eleven people wounded. In a church.

    1999. Utah. Seventy-year-old man. Kills 2, wounds 4. In a church.

    1999. Texas. Christian rock concert. Seven dead, seven wounded. In a church.

    2001. Kentucky. Husband shoots wife and bystander. In a church.

    2002. New York. Former mental patient. Kills priest and a parishioner. In a church.

    2002. Missouri. Four monks shot. Two die. In a monastery. Thats a church, right?

    2003. Georgia. Woman shoots pastor. And her own mother. In a church.

    2005. Wisconsin. Seven killed. Four wounded. In a church.

    2005. Georgia. Former church security guard. Died by gunshot. At the same church.

    2006. Louisiana. Four family members killed. Shot by another family member. In a church.

    2007. Missouri. Pastor killed. Two deacons killed. Five others wounded. In a church.

    2008. Tennessee. Youth performance. Gunman kills 2, wounds 7. In a church.

    2009. Illinois. Man shoots pastor. Gun jams. Several wounded by knife. In a church.

    2010. California. Three hoods. Three guns. Only two wounded. In a church.

    2013. Ashtabula, Ohio. Easter morning. Son shoots father. Any guess as to where this occured?
    August 5 2012 6 killed 4 wounded Sikh Temple wisconson
    Oct 30 2009 Jewish Synagogue shooting California
    July 28 2006 Jewish Federation shooting Seattle

    Places of worship are not necessarily places of safety.

    (Not meaning to take from your post just ad to it)
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  25. #25
    Regular Member MyWifeSaidYes's Avatar
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    No problem.

    I had several others, but I left out those where there were no deaths (except naked guy), or where I couldn't reduce the facts to a few sentence fragments.

    I did not include shooters who were killed in the death tolls, either.

    Everybody has to make their own choices about when and where they carry.

    If your religious institution does not allow you to carry, I understand those who choose to attend services unarmed.

    I also understand that bullet-resistant vests are fairly ineffective against head shots, so keep your head down when the shooting starts.
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    What does a caring, sensitive person feel when they are forced to use a handgun to stop a threat?

    Recoil.

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