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Thread: Lbl

  1. #1
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    Lbl

    I know the rule in LBL (General Rule 12. Possession, transportation or discharge of firearms, air guns, crossbows, bows and arrows or other weapons and explosives, including fireworks, is prohibited except authorized hunting equipment during set hunt dates.)

    With this said I also know that I find myself in LBL when I don't plan from the start of going there. IE, lets go to Calvert City Dairy Queen. Hey lets cruise the beaches. Hey lets go through the northern part of the LBL. See how fast that happens. Anyway, has anyone had experiences in the best way to deal with the LBL while out packing your side arm? Is keeping your OEM plastic box with lock in the trunk and good idea in those situations and would it make a difference if I stopped before entering the LBL and put my gun in it locked up with their posted regulations? With CCW and Open Carry legal in KY how can they expect you to drive home 25 to 30 miles one way just to put up a gun and come back?

    Orion

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    Regular Member DrakeZ07's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orion_13 View Post
    I know the rule in LBL (General Rule 12. Possession, transportation or discharge of firearms, air guns, crossbows, bows and arrows or other weapons and explosives, including fireworks, is prohibited except authorized hunting equipment during set hunt dates.)

    With this said I also know that I find myself in LBL when I don't plan from the start of going there. IE, lets go to Calvert City Dairy Queen. Hey lets cruise the beaches. Hey lets go through the northern part of the LBL. See how fast that happens. Anyway, has anyone had experiences in the best way to deal with the LBL while out packing your side arm? Is keeping your OEM plastic box with lock in the trunk and good idea in those situations and would it make a difference if I stopped before entering the LBL and put my gun in it locked up with their posted regulations? With CCW and Open Carry legal in KY how can they expect you to drive home 25 to 30 miles one way just to put up a gun and come back?

    Orion
    They can expect you to not have a firearm, loaded or unloaded, within an ease of access point, in the state of Kentucky, because LBL is owned by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers. You best not be caught dead on LBL with a firearm on your hip, or within reach, unless you would like to spend thousands of dollars pleading your way out of Federal Court.

    CoE property is on the same level as a Military base, the land controlled by the Military is subject to different regulations and rules than land controlled by what we're used to knowing. Think of LBL as a big house built on a walking trail, the owners of that house know that a walking trail vital to thousands of peoples daily lives depend on walking through their house, but, it is their house still, and they can dictate what is said or done in that house. We don't like it, and there are elements on the state, and federal level that are workign to get things changed, but until then, you just hunker down and deal with it.

    I took a vacation last year in that area, I used the firing range within LBL, but I made darn sure to keep everything locked up nice and tight. You don't screw with federal things, no matter if you like it or not, if you want it changed, get involved in the community.

    Its like how you can Open Carry at Cave Run Lake, but you cannot do so within a certain distance of, or in the Spill-way, or on the dam itself, or in or on the fish hatchery grounds, as its controlled and owned by the CoE.

    You can always drive around the lake if you wanted to, you don't have to drive through LBL to get to where you want to go, and you don't have to use the beaches at LBL, you could go to any other lakes or find a sand bar in the two major rivers. I know it sucks, but its all about what being a "Law-Abiding Citizen" is about, we may not like the laws, but we have to abide by them, atleast until they can get repealed.
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    Regular Member Manzanita's Avatar
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    The US Forest Service runs LBL, not the CofE.

    My experience is they tend to be okay with CCDW licensees carrying concealed. I usually CC when in LBL, except I'll leave it in the car if I go in any of the places like the Nature Station or a visitor center. Officially, though, it's a no-no. Shouldn't be, but there it is.

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    Regular Member DrakeZ07's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manzanita View Post
    The US Forest Service runs LBL, not the CofE.

    My experience is they tend to be okay with CCDW licensees carrying concealed. I usually CC when in LBL, except I'll leave it in the car if I go in any of the places like the Nature Station or a visitor center. Officially, though, it's a no-no. Shouldn't be, but there it is.
    FS runs LBL, CoE maintains it. I have personally witnessed CoE personel picking up trash and maintaining the beach area on Berkley.

    Also, Carrying concealed on LBL is in violation of the code, it doesn't matter if it 'tends to be okay' or not; never trust that a federal LEO is going to have the same opinion as a clerk at the visitor center. And also, we advocate OPEN Carry, not concealed carry, especially in violation of an unjust Federal code.

    Unless I am mistaken, and this is now "Concealed Carry [dot] Org". Do not, even for a minute, give a LEO any morsel of feed to fuel a fine or arrest on your part, and don't act in a way as to criminalize yourself. We have a constitutional right to keep and bear arms on a federal and state level, this is true, but there is also a federal code restricting that right on certain lands, and criminalizing it. Doing what you admit to doing, namely CC'ing on LBL, is criminal, and speaks not of the actions of a Law-Abiding Citizen.
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    Regular Member Manzanita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeZ07 View Post
    FS runs LBL, CoE maintains it. I have personally witnessed CoE personel picking up trash and maintaining the beach area on Berkley.

    Also, Carrying concealed on LBL is in violation of the code, it doesn't matter if it 'tends to be okay' or not; never trust that a federal LEO is going to have the same opinion as a clerk at the visitor center. And also, we advocate OPEN Carry, not concealed carry, especially in violation of an unjust Federal code.

    Unless I am mistaken, and this is now "Concealed Carry [dot] Org". Do not, even for a minute, give a LEO any morsel of feed to fuel a fine or arrest on your part, and don't act in a way as to criminalize yourself. We have a constitutional right to keep and bear arms on a federal and state level, this is true, but there is also a federal code restricting that right on certain lands, and criminalizing it. Doing what you admit to doing, namely CC'ing on LBL, is criminal, and speaks not of the actions of a Law-Abiding Citizen.
    The army corps of engineers has nothing whatsoever to do with the Land Between The Lakes. Never have. If they're maintaining the shoreline of Lake Barkley, then that's because they built the dams on the Cumberland River and control all land along the riverbanks to a certain elevation. TVA no longer controls LBL but they still control land along the TN River (KY Lake) to a certain elevation above sea level.

    Since I tend to be more of a "neutral good" alignment, if I don't follow an unjust law, I don't get all breathless about not being a "Law-Abiding Citizen". My experience is based on direct interactions with Forest Service LE's and employees that I personally know. I know the risks and I'm willing to take the chance. They don't just go around asking everyone they see if they're carrying so unless you're doing something citation- or arrest-worthy, it's a non-issue. If you encounter a FS cop while CC'ing and he somehow finds out about it, whether he's cool with it or not may depend on whether or not you've recently told him to "go <blank> himself" or mind his "own damn business" (from the same guy who advised against giving an LEO "any morsel of feed to fuel a fine or arrest on your part"...). A little bit of tact and maturity will go a long way.
    Last edited by Manzanita; 06-11-2013 at 06:47 PM.

  6. #6
    Regular Member DrakeZ07's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manzanita View Post
    The army corps of engineers has nothing whatsoever to do with the Land Between The Lakes. Never have. If they're maintaining the shoreline of Lake Barkley, then that's because they built the dams on the Cumberland River and control all land along the riverbanks to a certain elevation. TVA no longer controls LBL but they still control land along the TN River (KY Lake) to a certain elevation above sea level.

    Since I tend to be more of a "neutral good" alignment, if I don't follow an unjust law, I don't get all breathless about not being a "Law-Abiding Citizen". My experience is based on direct interactions with Forest Service LE's and employees that I personally know. I know the risks and I'm willing to take the chance. They don't just go around asking everyone they see if they're carrying so unless you're doing something citation- or arrest-worthy, it's a non-issue. If you encounter a FS cop while CC'ing and he somehow finds out about it, whether he's cool with it or not may depend on whether or not you've recently told him to "go <blank> himself" or mind his "own damn business" (from the same guy who advised against giving an LEO "any morsel of feed to fuel a fine or arrest on your part"...). A little bit of tact and maturity will go a long way.
    Maybe you should take your own advice then, and act with maturity and tact, before you go spouting off that you commit a crime every time you walk on LBL or drive through it, and don't really care about being a LAC. This forum and this sub-forum cater to people who are LAW-ABIDING CITIZENS, People who condemn the breaking of laws, with forum rules against the advocation of breaking laws, and such. You are a danger to our community with your reckless words and actions, and I'm getting tired of your smart mouth running off like you know every darn thing to do with our state and codes and laws, and like your LEO buddies are the best. Your LE buddies break the law by not enforcing it, and you are a threat to my fellow statesmen by making your posts sound as though its okay to break the law, so long as your corrupt buddy-buddy LEO's say its okay, because it sets a bad example for newbies and new comers lurking and not, on our forum.

    Its sh*t like this that gets posted on this forum and sub-forum that goes unaddressed that makes me wonder if we're supposed to accept and tolerate criminal advocates, or if I'm the only one who has the guts to stand against agent provocateurs.
    Last edited by DrakeZ07; 06-11-2013 at 08:09 PM. Reason: Spelling. Removed potentially offensive wording.
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    From what I understand, LBL is operated by the US Forest Service which is under the US Dept. of Agriculture. Firearm possession is, indeed, forbidden:
    http://www.lbl.org/documents/2012LBLRulesAndRegs.pdf

    Possession, transportation, or discharge of firearms, air guns, crossbows, bows and arrows, or other weapons
    or explosives (including fireworks) are prohibited except as authorized by hunting regulations or special permits.

    I don't know what the best way to fix this. Write your national legislators, I suppose.
    Last edited by langzaiguy; 06-11-2013 at 09:09 PM.

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    i live in monroe county but my wife's family is in barren county. when we get together at barren river state park i leave my gun at home. i call the park and the lady i spoke too said the park was run by the A.C.E., that firearms were not allowed anywhere. i know there are signs just about everywhere in the park saying no firearms allowed, i don't feel right without my gun at least in my car.

  9. #9
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    So I've been investigating this LBL deal and came across an old thread from last year. Ignore the horrible title and read through what has been written:
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ate-title-here

    I came to the same crossroads that Drake did. I pulled up the thread and found the same statute that Drake had came across (36 CFR 261.53e) and I also came to the same conclusion that he came to.

    Prior to reviewing the thread, I had emailed LBL. Their quick response yielded this "answer":

    The Department of the Interior changed their concealed carry law a few years ago. This change does not apply to the Forest Service, as we are Department of Agriculture. The following CFR remains in effect at Land Between The Lakes National Recreation Area.

    Code of Federal Regulations concerning firearms on LBL. (36 CFR 261.53E)

    Possession of firearms is prohibited except during legal firearms hunting seasons and going to and from the LBL Target Range. Firearms must be unloaded when transporting.

    Land Between The Lakes National Recreation Area Firearms Regulations

    The jurisdictional issues and laws as they apply to LBL are a bit more specific since we have legislation localized to LBL. If there is a question, it is always best if a person checks with local information sources and/or authorities in advance of arrival, to ensure there is no confusion. This would be true for local state, and federal public lands.

    Below is the information Forest Service Law Enforcement provides to the public in regards to possessing firearms at LBL NRA:

    Possession of firearms is prohibited except during legal firearms hunting seasons by licensed hunters and going to and from the LBL NRA firearms range. Firearms must be cased and unloaded during transport.

    Firearms possessed during legal hunting seasons by licensed hunters must be cased and unloaded (chamber + magazine) while being transported in a motorized vehicle.

    Concealed firearms carry permit does not apply to LBL NRA at this time, although the LE officers at LBL will honor the concealed carry permit if there are no other aggravating circumstances. Examples of aggravating circumstances are, but not limited to, violation of the concealed carry permit itself, shooting from a roadway, or shooting outside of the LBL firearms range”.




    As of today, I have responded with the following:

    "Again, I appreciate your quick response, but I am still confused. I looked up the law/regulation you cited, 36 CFR 261.53e. It reads as follows:

    261.53 - Special closures.

    When provided in an order, it is prohibited to go into or be upon any area which is closed for the protection of:
    (e) Public health or safety.

    I fail to see how this regulation gives LBL any authority to broadly legislate against firearms. If it is not against the law to carry a firearm in the park, has a specific individual decreed this?"



    I think it's interesting how LBL compares with Daniel Boon National Forest. My understanding is the DBNF could ban weapons if they wanted to, but that the district/regional commander (or whatever his title is) chooses not to. I don't know if that assumption is correct or not.

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    Update

    I received a response from an LBL LEO:

    "This is Richard Conley. I am a Law Enforcement Officer for the US Forest Service at LBL. I have been contacted and have received the emails you have sent regarding our firearms regulation at LBL. First the regulation 36 CFR 261.53e gives the Forest Supervisor of LBL NRA the authority to set any regulation he deems necessary to protect the safety of the forest and the public. We have within these special closures several activities that are regulated to specifically protect the safety of the public. This authority is given in the Code of Federal Regulations.

    The reason we have these regulations in part is because LBL is one the most visited National Recreation Areas in the country. We have certain times when firearms are allowed on LBL, such as during LBL specific hunting seasons. The firearms that are possessed during these times are for hunting and must be a firearm that is legal for the animal in season. i.e. 30-06 for would not be legal during squirrel season. Other than those times it is illegal to possess a firearm in LBL except while coming to and from the firearms range at Golden Pond.

    With that said we do however honor concealed carry permits as long as the carrier is observing the concealed permit guidelines all other US Forest Service regulations and is not causing any other problems. This doesn’t make it legal but is enforced with discretion by the officer. We respect the individual’s right to protect themselves and therefore we make this concession. The firearm must be a handgun and the carrier must make the LEO aware they have it upon contact. Failure to do so may result in having the firearm seized and the carrier cited for the violation.

    I hope this explanation will answer your questions. If you have any other questions please contact me.
    LEO Richard Conley"

    It would seem to me that they don't mind conceal carriers and that they know they are stretching the authority they are given in 36 CF 261.53 (which allows them to close parts of parks for various reasons) to include legislating firearms. I don't think they would have much legal standing in prosecuting someone for carrying, but I don't want to try it.

    It's also interesting that the LEO is telling me that, yes, it's against the law to carry a handgun in LBL, but as long as you're licensed and being cool about it, you can go ahead and break this law. Makes me think that he knows they can't enforce the regulation or is giving bad advice, or both.

    If you choose to conceal carry in LBL, I would print this statement out and carry it with you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by langzaiguy View Post
    I received a response from an LBL LEO:
    If you choose to conceal carry in LBL, I would print this statement out and carry it with you.
    I've already sent this to my phone in an email. I'm going to check and see if there really is an officer at the LBL by that name too before I try this. I still have about 4 weeks of waiting left before the state police should be done with my background check. I submitted the information at the sheriff's office the first week in April. I really think it is a shame you should have to hide your gun in the lbl like a criminal in order to carry it or even have it stored safely in your car. That is all I really want is to have it some where legally safe in the car for those times you are out and then end up either visiting a camper in the lbl or driving the trace at sundown to see the wild life with the kids or catching the sunset with your wife over Ky lake after eating at Katfish Kitchen or Willow Pond. There are at least half a dozen times a summer I find myself at the LBL when I hadn't planned on going there when I left the house that day. I guess I'm the only one on here that has had those experiences. *shrug* Just makes it difficult if you are open carrying all the time and it happens.

    Orion

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    I got curious and did your stalking for you. I did an employee search on LBL's website and found his information and it reads as follows:

    Name Richard Conley
    Phone 270-924-2198
    Fax 270-924-2111
    Title LEO
    Staff LE&I
    Office R8, LE&I - Southern Special Agent, Northwest Enforcement Zone

    http://www.fs.fed.us/cgi-bin/address...pxkcGFVDIIMyn2



    Interestingly enough, I guess he's a pastor, too, as his name and email are associated with his church:
    http://www.sermonaudio.com/source_ab...ceid=rconley70

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    I know I'm ressurecting an old thread but this thread got me to this site so here goes.

    My wife and I recently moved to the Dover area from Clarksville. One thing we love to do is ride all the back roads on our Harleys. Being new to the area there are a lot of new roads we haven't explored yet. A couple days ago I was at a local gun shop and a state trooper happened to be in there and was talking with one of the clerks about this subject and how the Forrest service makes you break their own law if they confiscate your firearm. As you have to go to their office within LBL to pay the fine and pick up said firearm, so now you are in violation twice. I've never ridden "The Trace" but as he was telling me, this is a bad road to be traveling on while carrying. I'm not sure if the same applies to US 68 but I would assume so since that is where the Golden Pond Shooting Range is located. Personally, I've traveled that road many times on my bike while open and concealed carrying and never knew about this regulation until now. I guess in the future I'll just make sure there are a couple boxes of ammo in my saddle bag so I can say that I was either going to or coming from the range to CMA.

  14. #14
    Regular Member HPmatt's Avatar
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    Is land a Federal Park? If so would think would follow state law. If COE wasn't there ruling in last few years where 2A prevailed, but narrowly? Was LBL originally Federal or State?


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    Quote Originally Posted by HPmatt View Post
    Is land a Federal Park? If so would think would follow state law. If COE wasn't there ruling in last few years where 2A prevailed, but narrowly? Was LBL originally Federal or State?


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    LBL is operated by the US Forest Service, part of the USDA. The law you are talking about applies only to the Department of the Interior.

    The cited regulation, 36 CFR 261.53(e) allows them to close an area for Public health or safety. It does not allow them to restrict firearms possession. So they are either lying or are mistaken. I give each of those a 50/50 possibility.

    Now there are other regulations that may allow them to issue orders to regulate firearms possession for the purposes of public safety (But I doubt that concealed carriers could be construed a public safety risk), but is certainly not the one they are quoting.

  16. #16
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    Info obtained from Handgunlaw.us -

    U.S. Army Corps of Engineers PropertyNotice: The U.S. District Court for the District of Idaho has a temporary injunction against the Corps ofEngineers (Morris v. US Army Corps of Engineers) to not enforce their Rules against defensive firearmson Corps Property. This is not the buildings or Dams the Corps operates but the open areas of that propertyand the waters backed up by Corps Dams. Though this ruling was by a U.S. District Court in Idaho the rulingshould cover all Corps Property Nationwide.
    I spoke with the Legal Dept at the Corps of Engineers. It is their contention that nowhere inside the COEboundaries is a weapon/firearm allowed, loaded or unloaded, with CCW permit or without. However theLegal Rep for the Corps I talked with said it is commonly accepted that they will not harass or search privatevehicles for weapons/firearms or any other prohibited item without obvious and serious cause to do so andthat within their boundaries they do have full authority to do so even in the state park or other facility locatedinside their boundaries (boat docks, marinas, launch ramps, lake houses, cabins, etc.).

    The COE properties are defined as starting at the first signage upon approaching the project area.Camping or park areas usually start at the traffic counters on the road as the specific areas are approached,which can be well within the general COE property boundary.

    When the Corps builds a dam to make a lake they usually buy up all the property around where the lakewill be formed. Depending on where the lake is and the tracts of land they have to purchase they can ownland a good distance from the lake. Their property lines are not marked. They will lease land around theirlake to a state to build State Parks etc but the Corps still owns the property and their Regulations apply tothat property.

    I specifically ask the Legal Rep about the dams on the Ohio River. He told me that on rivers the Corpsjust owns the property where the Dam is situated. I ask about locking through a dam in a pleasure craft. Ifyou do you have to unload and store the firearm per federal law.

    In addition the local project commander has the authority to restrict or deny, with proper prominent signs,the use of ATV's, 4-wheelers, motorcycles, trail bikes, parking arrangements, traffic access, and other areasand/or activities as he sees fit.

    By Federal Law and COE Regulations it is illegal to carry a firearm (Unless Hunting on Land the Corpsallows hunting on) on the U.S. Corps of Engineers property. This includes the waters of lakes that their damsform and the property surrounding the lake unless there is a private home on the lake. Sometimes the area isdensely populated and they did not buy up all the property and existing homes when they formed the lake.

  17. #17
    State Researcher lockman's Avatar
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    It is always helpful if they cite the federal laws they invoke so the common folk can confirm or challenge their cites.

  18. #18
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    What am I missing? Are not all National Recreation Areas the same? The one near me, the Lake Mead NRA, is administered by the National Park Service. It follows state laws for all firearms possession, just like the National Parks do.
    Last edited by MAC702; 09-27-2015 at 12:17 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    What am I missing? Are not all National Recreation Areas the same? The one near me, the Lake Mead NRA, is administered by the National Park Service. It follows state laws for all firearms possession, just like the National Parks do.
    What you're missing is that some dams and the like, even within state/national parks etc. are operated and managed by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, obviously a different federal agency than those who administer the parks. Hence the ACE says they can indeed post 'no guns' signs and policies on and around "their" dams.

    Problem is that nobody really knows where ACE control ends and it becomes park land. Personally I don't give a rip because ACE doesn't really have any cops to come haul me away if I inadvertently cross one of their invisible boundary lines. They'd have to call FBI or U.S. Marshals which ain't anywhere nearby. Or they could attempt to use park rangers, or county deputies respond from almost as far away.

    It's tough to imagine a situation by which a carrier would be seen at the dam, reported, and have the po-po in any form get there in time to catch the person and make an arrest. All that said though I'd still like to see Congress fix this in the name of trying to not be perennially stupid.

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