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Thread: Someone in the GOP just doesn't get it... CHP info request

  1. #1
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Someone in the GOP just doesn't get it... CHP info request

    I hope this decision was made by some intern somewhere... the GOP sure isn't doing themselves any favors here.

    Virginia GOP asks for concealed gun permit holders personal information

    TFred

  2. #2
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    I hope this decision was made by some intern somewhere... the GOP sure isn't doing themselves any favors here.

    Virginia GOP asks for concealed gun permit holders personal information

    TFred

    VCOG:

    The Republican Party Chair is asking for a list of permit holders.1
    A clerk of court is refusing, in part because the bill was passed.2


  3. #3
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    I hope this decision was made by some intern somewhere... the GOP sure isn't doing themselves any favors here.

    Virginia GOP asks for concealed gun permit holders personal information

    TFred
    You called this one right after the law passed TFred. A scramble before July 1.
    Now think of this. VCDL likes to brag on te number of CHP holders in Va. The truth is, most people that want one have one....so the existing list is pretty accurate.

    Within a year, new ways to find a list will be found and the process starts over again.


    VCOG:

    The Republican Party Chair is asking for a list of permit holders.1
    A clerk of court is refusing, in part because the bill was passed.2


  4. #4
    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Thank you, Richard L Francis, for standing up for us all.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Regular Member scouser's Avatar
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    That's one. Now is VCDL going to pressure every other court to respond in the same way? I mean it is about permits, after all.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie View Post
    Thank you, Richard L Francis, for standing up for us all.
    Well......
    I happen to personally agree even though I don't have a dog in this fight.
    My objective opinion is different though.

    Reason's 1 and 2 are good. You'd think the GOP would know The Circuit Court Records are governed by the Supreme Court rules and not subject to FOIA (same for GD Court).

    Reason number 3 concerns me some. Dealing with idiots like the Petersburg and Hanover Circuit Court Clerks is a nightmare because they throw the law to In-ter-pa-tation..theirs, with no real basis in law. Why is this decision better just because it agrees with our view?

    Just stating reasons 1 and 2 would have been sufficient and better IMO>

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    You called this one right after the law passed TFred. A scramble before July 1.
    Now think of this. VCDL likes to brag on te number of CHP holders in Va. The truth is, most people that want one have one....so the existing list is pretty accurate.
    I may have gotten the "what" right, but boy did I blow the "who!"

    I figured it would be the newspapers and TV stations and all the OTHER gun-haters and those who want to have "something to hold over" the law abiding gun owners of Virginia.

    Never figured it would be those who love to proclaim their "support" so loudly as the Republicans.

    Very disappointing.

    TFred

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Ha ha, I just read the letter from the clerk... I can't help but wonder what motivated him to include a very close copy of a hilarious line from Pirates of the Caribbean!

    Elizabeth: Captain Barbossa , I am here to negotiate the cessation of hostilities against Port Royal .
    Barbossa: There are a lot of long words in there, Miss; we're naught but humble pirates. What is it that you want?
    Elizabeth: I want you to leave and never come back.
    Barbossa: I'm disinclined to acquiesce to your request. Means "no".

    TFred

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    From the code the clerk referenced:

    A. The provisions of this chapter shall not apply to:

    [...]

    5. The records required by law to be maintained by the clerks of the courts of record, as defined in 1-212, and courts not of record, as defined in 16.1-69.5. However, other records maintained by the clerks of such courts shall be public records and subject to the provisions of this chapter.

    Is the purpose of this to prevent someone from using FOIA to get the clerk's office to do their legal research for them? Title searches, etc?

    TFred
    Last edited by TFred; 06-11-2013 at 08:18 PM. Reason: ETA: Clarification & link

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    The GOP has withdrawn their requests for names.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Request withdrawn

    Amazing what a little light can do.

    I suppose I can believe the story, "just trying to add to the support lists..." but along with that version comes an AWFUL lot of baggage in the form of totally not understanding the demographic of the CHP holder. I'm not sure which is more costly in terms of political capital. Might have been cheaper just to throw an intern under the bus.

    Republican Party of Virginia withdraws request for handgun permit records

    TFred

  12. #12
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Amazing what a little light can do.

    I suppose I can believe the story, "just trying to add to the support lists..." but along with that version comes an AWFUL lot of baggage in the form of totally not understanding the demographic of the CHP holder. I'm not sure which is more costly in terms of political capital. Might have been cheaper just to throw an intern under the bus.

    Republican Party of Virginia withdraws request for handgun permit records

    TFred
    Have you ever noticed how the GOP always manages to shoot themselves in the foot with an unloaded gun?

    That initial request may cost the Republicans dearly come November.

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    Regular Member XD40sc's Avatar
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    So they can launch a full court press for donations and support at a target audience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    From the code the clerk referenced:

    A. The provisions of this chapter shall not apply to:

    [...]

    5. The records required by law to be maintained by the clerks of the courts of record, as defined in 1-212, and courts not of record, as defined in 16.1-69.5. However, other records maintained by the clerks of such courts shall be public records and subject to the provisions of this chapter.

    Is the purpose of this to prevent someone from using FOIA to get the clerk's office to do their legal research for them? Title searches, etc?

    TFred
    I've always viewed it as a really good excuse to not have to release records -- they can only release records that currently exist and are readily available (along with other limitations and stipulations) and so a "list of" [e.g., names of whatever] are seldom going to be already in existence (unless otherwise mandated by law, such as registered voters). So as there is no master list of CHP holders, given that each permit is an individual docket entry, they don't maintain a master list and don't then have to create one. It is a way to prevent someone from using FOIA to get the clerk's office to do their legal research, or another way to look at it is that it is a way to prevent abuses caused by a never ending pile of FOIA submissions which could be used to "task" a government agency.

    Don't get me wrong -- I am personally happy that in this instance the "excuse" was used to effectively shut this down, but in other situations I've been on the other end of things knowing that this excuse is being used to essentially keep information from being available.

    There is as far as I know nothing which prevents someone (as of today) from going to the clerks office and themselves looking at records (and perhaps taking notes).
    NRA Life Member

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    It's also interesting that so many clerks are making the claim that lists do not exist when until as late as 18 or so months ago, I know for a fact that one local newspaper was still publishing just that, a "list" of all the recently granted CHPs for our area. And I know for a fact that for many years, as recently as about 3 or 4 years ago, the largest local newspaper published these same monthly lists from several jurisdictions in the area of all the new CHP holders. It was these lists that finally (along with the New York scandal) pushed this bill through the General Assembly.)

    At that point, the clerks or someone in their office WAS definitely providing these lists to the newspaper. They would send someone on a monthly road trip to each clerk's office to get the latest list.

    Since that practice was discontinued, I know that the clerk in Fredericksburg has changed, and is now much more gun-friendly than the former clerk was, and in fact a discussion with one of his deputies a few weeks revealed that this office had the same line of thinking, that there WAS no list to provide.

    I almost wonder if the clerks received some sort of guidance on this from higher up... It seems a little suspicious that so many would think of the same excuse independently, especially after so many years of providing those lists with no questions asked.

    TFred

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    Quote Originally Posted by XD40sc View Post
    So they can launch a full court press for donations and support at a target audience.
    Maybe they'd get a little more mileage out of actually supporting the RKBA.
    Last edited by architect; 06-12-2013 at 10:05 AM. Reason: typo

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    I almost wonder if the clerks received some sort of guidance on this from higher up... It seems a little suspicious that so many would think of the same excuse independently, especially after so many years of providing those lists with no questions asked.

    TFred

    That, I think, is a very good observation. I have long thought that clerks were on their own perhaps assembling lists that weren't required. For example, a less than RKBA friendly clerk decides to sort out all the permit granting cases to create a list that is then "available" to provide to a newspaper. And if that's so I can easily imagine guidance being given about stopping that. That would possibly explain why things pretty much stopped in VA.
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  18. #18
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drdan01 View Post
    That, I think, is a very good observation. I have long thought that clerks were on their own perhaps assembling lists that weren't required. For example, a less than RKBA friendly clerk decides to sort out all the permit granting cases to create a list that is then "available" to provide to a newspaper. And if that's so I can easily imagine guidance being given about stopping that. That would possibly explain why things pretty much stopped in VA.
    I can't discount your theory, but I have a much different one of my own. After seeing several years of the privacy bill ALMOST make it out of the Senate sub-committees, and the loud raucous raised by the CHP-supporters when the Democratic Senate leadership had to resort to CHEATING to kill the bill in the sub-committee, it's my firm belief that the Virginia Press Association basically told their members to stop printing lists, at the peril of losing all access to the information altogether. That would also stop them from being able to throw down the anti-CHP flag every time some nut who happened to have a CHP ever committed a crime that made the newspaper. THAT, IMHO, was something they really didn't want to lose.

    TFred

    ETA: Ironically, even from an anti-gun point of view, it would seem to me that they should embrace CHPs, because it's an extra level of government oversight and background check. I always wanted to ask one of them (anti-gun press person) the brain stumper: "If John Doe has decided he IS going to buy a gun, would you rather he also obtain, or not obtain a CHP to go with it?" I suppose to an anti-gun person, that question is sort of like, "have you stopped beating your wife?"
    Last edited by TFred; 06-12-2013 at 11:47 AM.

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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    I always wanted to ask one of them (anti-gun press person) the brain stumper: "If John Doe has decided he IS going to buy a gun, would you rather he also obtain, or not obtain a CHP to go with it?" I suppose to an anti-gun person, that question is sort of like, "have you stopped beating your wife?"
    So, are the politicos asking for a list of sex offenders? How about a list of DUIs? Or, maybe a list of DV offenders?

    No. They are asking for lists of concealed carriers. I think maybe they want to investigate the danger of committing some kind of anti-social act and want to know where it's safe to do so.

  20. #20
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    So, are the politicos asking for a list of sex offenders? How about a list of DUIs? Or, maybe a list of DV offenders?

    No. They are asking for lists of concealed carriers. I think maybe they want to investigate the danger of committing some kind of anti-social act and want to know where it's safe to do so.
    What they had in mind Maverick, was targeting Chippers as a strong source of votes and donations. I'm afraid that idea backfired!

  21. #21
    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    It's also interesting that so many clerks are making the claim that lists do not exist when until as late as 18 or so months ago, I know for a fact that one local newspaper was still publishing just that, a "list" of all the recently granted CHPs for our area. And I know for a fact that for many years, as recently as about 3 or 4 years ago, the largest local newspaper published these same monthly lists from several jurisdictions in the area of all the new CHP holders. It was these lists that finally (along with the New York scandal) pushed this bill through the General Assembly.)

    At that point, the clerks or someone in their office WAS definitely providing these lists to the newspaper. They would send someone on a monthly road trip to each clerk's office to get the latest list.

    Since that practice was discontinued, I know that the clerk in Fredericksburg has changed, and is now much more gun-friendly than the former clerk was, and in fact a discussion with one of his deputies a few weeks revealed that this office had the same line of thinking, that there WAS no list to provide.

    I almost wonder if the clerks received some sort of guidance on this from higher up... It seems a little suspicious that so many would think of the same excuse independently, especially after so many years of providing those lists with no questions asked.

    TFred
    Or, the newspaper was sending a junior flunky or an intern to the courthouse regularly.

  22. #22
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tess View Post
    Or, the newspaper was sending a junior flunky or an intern to the courthouse regularly.
    No, it wasn't "or". It was "and". The newspaper was sending a junior flunky or an intern to the courthouses monthly, where they collected that month's list of new CHP grantees. It was routine, happened every month. I spoke to at least two different clerk's offices about the process. Given the size and geography of the area for which they were publishing these lists, I suspect it took at least a half-day for the road trip to hit the courthouses of Fredericksburg, Stafford, Spotsylvania, Caroline and King George counties.

    TFred

  23. #23
    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
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    Pilot wants that info, too -- "Who's Packin'"

    Note that attitude -- Who's Packin'
    In less than two weeks, Virginians with handgun permits will no longer have to fear the release of such information. But that privacy comes at the price of limiting the public's right to know, an ongoing tension between open-government advocates and those who say it's no one's business that they're secretly armed.

    ...

    The state GOP later rescinded those requests after receiving about three dozen responses - some outright rejections, others offering to provide records for a fee that averaged $1,000 per court.

    Similarly, The Pilot found that a full list of handgun permits for a given city or county is hard to come by.
    Note the whining:
    That response troubles Megan Rhyne, executive director of the Virginia Coalition for Open Government.

    "As with all other laws in the commonwealth, the law is the law until the effective date of the new law," she said.
    How about God's Law?

  24. #24
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Repeater View Post
    Note that attitude -- Who's Packin'


    Note the whining:


    How about God's Law?
    Interesting Repeater. I belong to the Coalition and for the most part am pleased with the progress we've made.

    I took a "No dog in this fight" position with Megan over the lists. I don't like that the lists were published
    but also don't like adding strings to our Open Government laws.

    Simply put, you knew they were open documents when you got the CHP.

    I spent a fairly tense afternoon with a Court Clerk today to the point where they had an armed Deputy standing by in case I decided to kill someone with my loose leaf notebook and sharp wit. I got the information needed and yes, it was a gun related matter....and had it not been for open access laws, I wouldn't have been able to.

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