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Thread: Two Quick VA Questions: Retention and "Covered" OC

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    Two Quick VA Questions: Retention and "Covered" OC

    Hello all. My first post here.
    Being a TX resident, where OC is not allowed, I've not had to consider the following questions. But, I'm planning a trip to visit friends in VA this summer and I plan to give OC a try and see what it's all about. I've been CC-ing for over 15 years, so, I have a bit of experience with concealed carry.

    I've read the VA statutes and read through a bunch of info here and elsewhere, but was hoping for a quick, concise answer to two questions, specifically as they relate to VA law and more practically, how VA laws translate to the real world.

    Here goes..

    1. When OC-ing, is a "retention holster" required? (Thumb break, or other "active" retention feature)
    From what I've read, there is not any requirement for any type of specific retention feature when carrying OC, but I've received some feedback from two sources that I should use a "retention holster" (their words)... So I thought I would ask, even though I believe the answer is no.

    I have a good-quality, leather, molded, OWB holster that I would feel pretty confident jogging in, but it does not have a thumb break or any other specific retention feature, other than snug molding.

    and..

    2. I have a concealed carry license that VA recognizes (TX). If I carry OWB wearing a mix of clothing that at times will not cover the weapon at all and other times might completely cover the weapon until I bend, raise my hands, etc..... Will this cause any problems, practically or legally? To clarify, I might wear a T-shirt tucked in with an OWB holster. Clearly that falls under OC rules. But if I throw on a casual shirt on top of that, a shirt that I already know will do a good job concealing the weapon and holster, until some activity (or maybe a stiff breeze) unconcealed the OWB carry, will this violate any laws or accepted conventions?

    What rules do I need to worry about with this type of mostly-covered carry? Is it a no-no or a no-problem?
    How is this looked upon/received generally? (I don't want to do anything to harm the OC community by being a poor example.)

    (In case location matters, I'll be mostly in the Charlottesville/Palmyra area, with some time in Manassas/Battlefield)

    Thanks for your assistance.

  2. #2
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    An early welcome to Virginia is in order. We hope you enjoy your visit.

    The reason you found nothing in our statutes that addresses open carry is because there isn't any such thing. Open carry is the normal mode (read that as standard or default) of carry here.

    "1. When OC-ing, is a "retention holster" required? (Thumb break, or other "active" retention feature)
    From what I've read, there is not any requirement for any type of specific retention feature when carrying OC, but I've received some feedback from two sources that I should use a "retention holster" (their words)... So I thought I would ask, even though I believe the answer is no.

    I have a good-quality, leather, molded, OWB holster that I would feel pretty confident jogging in, but it does not have a thumb break or any other specific retention feature, other than snug molding."


    As mentioned, there are no requirements for open carry and that includes holsters. However, it is indeed prudent and wise to use a holster with some measure and level of retention when your sidearm is visible. Many of these can be had for very reasonable prices in the kydex variety.

    "2. I have a concealed carry license that VA recognizes (TX). If I carry OWB wearing a mix of clothing that at times will not cover the weapon at all and other times might completely cover the weapon until I bend, raise my hands, etc..... Will this cause any problems, practically or legally? To clarify, I might wear a T-shirt tucked in with an OWB holster. Clearly that falls under OC rules. But if I throw on a casual shirt on top of that, a shirt that I already know will do a good job concealing the weapon and holster, until some activity (or maybe a stiff breeze) unconcealed the OWB carry, will this violate any laws or accepted conventions?

    What rules do I need to worry about with this type of mostly-covered carry? Is it a no-no or a no-problem?
    How is this looked upon/received generally? (I don't want to do anything to harm the OC community by being a poor example.)"


    Since OC is the standard carry mode, if your concealed sidearm happens to make itself suddenly visible, that is fine. No worry there. Most people won't notice anyway. And if they do, it is rarely a problem. We do get a lot of visitors and transplants from the northeast and they might get a little wide eyed, But strangely even most of them seem to understand that down here, the carrying of a defensive firearm is a pretty normal thing.

    "(In case location matters, I'll be mostly in the Charlottesville/Palmyra area, with some time in Manassas/Battlefield)"

    I can't speak for the Charlottesville/Palmyra area but I can for the Manassas area since I live a short distance from Manassas and the battlefield. I carry all the time into Manassas, most always openly, and I have never had even one problem. There are only a few places where businesses have posted no guns signs, though I can't even recall one of those recently. When in doubt, just cover it up. As for the Charlottesville/Palmyra area, send Marco a PM (he might join this discussion anyway). He lives down there and will be most happy to help you out. Great fellow... tell him I mentioned that you contact him.

    Once again, welcome early to your visit here in Virginia. When you are in the Manassas area, let me know if you would like to do a lunch. If it's in July, I should be okay with it (have to go in for open back surgery in 5 days). Spend lots of money while you're here.

    Oh, BTW. When carrying, be extra pleasant and polite. We like to send positive messages to the rest of the people we encounter so that they see us as responsible and friendly types (somehow, I think you already do that anyway down in Texas).

    Hope this helps.
    Last edited by SouthernBoy; 06-12-2013 at 05:55 PM.
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  3. #3
    Activist Member Wolf_shadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoyGBiv View Post
    Hello all. My first post here.
    Being a TX resident, where OC is not allowed, I've not had to consider the following questions. But, I'm planning a trip to visit friends in VA this summer and I plan to give OC a try and see what it's all about. I've been CC-ing for over 15 years, so, I have a bit of experience with concealed carry.

    I've read the VA statutes and read through a bunch of info here and elsewhere, but was hoping for a quick, concise answer to two questions, specifically as they relate to VA law and more practically, how VA laws translate to the real world.

    Here goes..

    1. When OC-ing, is a "retention holster" required? (Thumb break, or other "active" retention feature)
    From what I've read, there is not any requirement for any type of specific retention feature when carrying OC, but I've received some feedback from two sources that I should use a "retention holster" (their words)... So I thought I would ask, even though I believe the answer is no.

    I have a good-quality, leather, molded, OWB holster that I would feel pretty confident jogging in, but it does not have a thumb break or any other specific retention feature, other than snug molding.

    and..

    2. I have a concealed carry license that VA recognizes (TX). If I carry OWB wearing a mix of clothing that at times will not cover the weapon at all and other times might completely cover the weapon until I bend, raise my hands, etc..... Will this cause any problems, practically or legally? To clarify, I might wear a T-shirt tucked in with an OWB holster. Clearly that falls under OC rules. But if I throw on a casual shirt on top of that, a shirt that I already know will do a good job concealing the weapon and holster, until some activity (or maybe a stiff breeze) unconcealed the OWB carry, will this violate any laws or accepted conventions?

    What rules do I need to worry about with this type of mostly-covered carry? Is it a no-no or a no-problem?
    How is this looked upon/received generally? (I don't want to do anything to harm the OC community by being a poor example.)

    (In case location matters, I'll be mostly in the Charlottesville/Palmyra area, with some time in Manassas/Battlefield)

    Thanks for your assistance.

    IANAL but here goes. #1 a retention holster is not required a good snug fitting holster will do as long as the firearm would not fall out under the activity you are doing or may do. #2 Casual concealed is fine and should not be a problem as long as you have your CHP with you.

    We recommend a voice recorder in case of conversations with an Anti etc.

    Enjoy your stay and as I said hopefully some like minded people in the area can meet up with you.
    Last edited by Wolf_shadow; 06-12-2013 at 05:54 PM.
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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Also, google 'Virginia tuck'.

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    Basically, it has to do with visibility.

    The others have touched on the holster and method. I'll fill in on an aspect they missed.

    Of course, visibility includes light.

    There are several lighting options:
    Red
    Orange
    Yellow
    Green
    Blue
    Indigo
    Violet

    Or, you can mix them all together and have have sunlight.



    (Sorry, Roy. I just couldn't resist.)
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-308

    § 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry; penalty.

    A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation, (i) any pistol, revolver, or other weapon designed or intended to propel a missile of any kind by action of an explosion of any combustible material; (ii) any dirk, bowie knife, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, machete, razor, slingshot, spring stick, metal knucks, or blackjack; (iii) any flailing instrument consisting of two or more rigid parts connected in such a manner as to allow them to swing freely, which may be known as a nun chahka, nun chuck, nunchaku, shuriken, or fighting chain; (iv) any disc, of whatever configuration, having at least two points or pointed blades which is designed to be thrown or propelled and which may be known as a throwing star or oriental dart; or (v) any weapon of like kind as those enumerated in this subsection, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. A second violation of this section or a conviction under this section subsequent to any conviction under any substantially similar ordinance of any county, city, or town shall be punishable as a Class 6 felony, and a third or subsequent such violation shall be punishable as a Class 5 felony. For the purpose of this section, a weapon shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature. It shall be an affirmative defense to a violation of clause (i) regarding a handgun, that a person had been issued, at the time of the offense, a valid concealed handgun permit.
    The relevant words are "hidden from common observation". Thus, an IWB holster that shows only the grips is still OC because common observation will inform the observer that it is a handgun. Belt-buckle "holsters" such as are offered for the likes of derringers and mini-revolvers do not meet the "common observation" requirement. And remember, it's a concealed handgun permit - no other weapons are covered.

    CC in Virginia is not governed by foolishness about printing not being allowed. Generally speaking if it's covered it's concealed. If your shirt tail flies up in a gust of wind nobody should arrest you for the sudden disclosure. There is no BS about if you are seated with your handgun facing a wall, or if you are in your vehicle and the cop cannot see it from where he is standing outside your window that you are CCing and therefore must have a CHP. It's pretty much based on if you were to stand up and someone could walk around you, could they tell based on common observation, that you were carrying or is it hidden from common observation (covered by something when you aere standing there.).

    If you are using a cover garment for CC and it pops up (wind, you stretched/bent, whatever) the only thing that happens is you just went from CC to OC. Horses should not faint and woment should not stampede because that happened.

    Be sure when you go home to tell folks there what it feels like to walk around without having to worry if you are printing or not.

    The "Virginia tuck" is a holdover from the days when CC was not allowed where they sold booze for on-premises consumption (which by default meant that OC was OK). Take your cover garment and "tuck" it behind the grips so that you are now OCing.

    stay safe.

    PS - if you do happen to see any guns in the streets, please pick them up. We get really testy about having to fix flats or get alignments done from running over them.
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    Regular Member riverrat10k's Avatar
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    Some on this site will disagree with my behavior, but since I have a CHP, I practice "I don't give a **** carry", more politely called indifferent carry. Open, concealed, attached to my hat, I really don't care anymore.

    As another suggested, good idea to have a voice or video recorder running "just in case'".

    I have not had a problem in over five years of OC. Probably just jinxed myself
    .
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    Thanks very much folks, for both the helpful replies and the warm welcome.

    Much appreciated.

    Sometimes reading the rules isnt the same as living with them. Its always useful to hear some first hand experiences. I'm looking forward to my visit.

    Thanks again.

    RGB

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    I do find the whole "gunbuster" sign thing a bit muddled, thanks in part to handgunlaw.us

    The folks at handgunlaw.us say...
    http://handgunlaw.us/states/virginia.pdf
    Do “No Gun Signs” Have the Force of Law?
    “NO”
    They go on to (correctly) say that these signs only have force of law when they are posted in places that are on the list of prohibited places... And of course on the list of prohibited places is 18.2-308 (O):
    O. The granting of a concealed handgun permit shall not thereby authorize the possession of any handgun or other weapon on property or in places where such possession is otherwise prohibited by law or is prohibited by the owner of private property.
    So..... In reality..... A gunbuster sign on the door of a private business DOES have the force of law.

    Perhaps the folks at handgunlaw.us should clarify their position??

    Maybe this would be better??

    Q: Do “No Gun Signs” Have the Force of Law?
    A: "Maybe"
    A no guns sign has the force of law if posted on any private property, including private businesses. However, "no guns" signs posted on public institutions and buildings do not have force of law unless those places are specifically listed as prohibited in Section 18.2 of VA code.

    Please let me know if my understanding here is not correct.

    Thanks.!

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoyGBiv View Post
    I do find the whole "gunbuster" sign thing a bit muddled, thanks in part to handgunlaw.us

    The folks at handgunlaw.us say...

    They go on to (correctly) say that these signs only have force of law when they are posted in places that are on the list of prohibited places... And of course on the list of prohibited places is 18.2-308 (O):


    So..... In reality..... A gunbuster sign on the door of a private business DOES have the force of law.

    Perhaps the folks at handgunlaw.us should clarify their position??

    Maybe this would be better??

    Q: Do “No Gun Signs” Have the Force of Law?
    A: "Maybe"
    A no guns sign has the force of law if posted on any private property, including private businesses. However, "no guns" signs posted on public institutions and buildings do not have force of law unless those places are specifically listed as prohibited in Section 18.2 of VA code.

    Please let me know if my understanding here is not correct.

    Thanks.!
    That question has prompted many pages of debate.

    To be safe (and polite) if there is a no guns sign, don't take a gun there but don't give them any business either.

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    Regular Member paramedic70002's Avatar
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    1. No.

    2. No.

    C'ville/Manassas: Liberal fortresses that nevertheless usually go along with state law.
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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoyGBiv View Post
    I do find the whole "gunbuster" sign thing a bit muddled, thanks in part to handgunlaw.us

    The folks at handgunlaw.us say...

    They go on to (correctly) say that these signs only have force of law when they are posted in places that are on the list of prohibited places... And of course on the list of prohibited places is 18.2-308 (O):


    So..... In reality..... A gunbuster sign on the door of a private business DOES have the force of law.

    Perhaps the folks at handgunlaw.us should clarify their position??

    Maybe this would be better??

    Q: Do “No Gun Signs” Have the Force of Law?
    A: "Maybe"
    A no guns sign has the force of law if posted on any private property, including private businesses. However, "no guns" signs posted on public institutions and buildings do not have force of law unless those places are specifically listed as prohibited in Section 18.2 of VA code.

    Please let me know if my understanding here is not correct.

    Thanks.!

    Read the last few pages and make up your own mind on the signs.
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...rel-on-gaskins

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Read the last few pages and make up your own mind on the signs.
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...rel-on-gaskins
    Thanks... !

    Seems reasonably clear that a gunbuster sign on a private business has force of law and will act accordingly (by not spending any $$ there). Same thing as when I lived in NC. It was just the handgunlaw.us "No" answer that caused me to do a double-check.

    I like the TX sign requirements, which call for a "big ugly sign in two languages with specific wording" (see TX 30.06).
    We see a lot of non-compliant signs here in TX that we can safely (generally) ignore. There is some growing anecdotal evidence that some of these non-compliant signs are put up intentionally to placate the sheeple masses without actually barring CC on premises...


    http://law.onecle.com/texas/penal/30.06.00.html
    (3) "Written communication" means:
    (A) a card or other document on which is written
    language identical to the following: "Pursuant to Section 30.06,
    Penal Code (trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed
    handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411,
    Government Code (concealed handgun law), may not enter this
    property with a concealed handgun"; or
    (B) a sign posted on the property that:
    (i) includes the language described by
    Paragraph (A) in both English and Spanish;
    (ii) appears in contrasting colors with
    block letters at least one inch in height; and
    (iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner
    clearly visible to the public.
    Last edited by RoyGBiv; 06-13-2013 at 02:52 PM.

  14. #14
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Regarding whether or not a "No Guns" sign in a business has the force of law in Virginia, I say no and I'll offer an example.

    Suppose you have a friend who owns a jewelry store. You decide to visit him one day and as you enter with your sidearm in full view, you notice a "No Guns" sign in a display window. Your friend sees you and says, "That's okay, don't worry about that. Come on in. It's my store and I can do as I wish". He just invited you into his business verbally with a displayed sign on one of his windows. That is his right and he can take the decision to do this or to summon the police and have you removed or arrested for trespassing if he so desires. The sign didn't arrest or remove you. It simply puts you on notice that your entry when armed could result in your arrest and a charge of trespassing if you don't leave. But that won't happen if the owner tells you to ignore the sign and to "come on in".
    Last edited by SouthernBoy; 06-13-2013 at 07:06 PM.
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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoyGBiv View Post
    I do find the whole "gunbuster" sign thing a bit muddled, thanks in part to handgunlaw.us
    Yeah, boy, did YOU open a can of worms with this one!

    As you read, there are two very opposite views on this, and in fact, I believe your observation of the stark difference between the Texas sign definition, and the fact that Virginia has NOTHING in the code about such signs is a clear indication that supports the "not force of law" viewpoint.

    But we have agreed to disagree and still be friends... awaiting that court case that will never come to show which view is... well, which view matches the judge at the time.

    TFred

    ETA: Of course few of us are lawyers, and none of us give legal advice over the internet, but I suspect if you ignore policy signs (don't look for them, don't ask for them, don't stop to read them while in view of a security camera), be polite, leave if asked, and answer every question with "what sign?" you will probably be fairly safe. JMHO, of course.
    Last edited by TFred; 06-13-2013 at 10:47 PM.

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    Regular Member Esanders2008's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Yeah, boy, did YOU open a can of worms with this one!

    As you read, there are two very opposite views on this, and in fact, I believe your observation of the stark difference between the Texas sign definition, and the fact that Virginia has NOTHING in the code about such signs is a clear indication that supports the "not force of law" viewpoint.

    But we have agreed to disagree and still be friends... awaiting that court case that will never come to show which view is... well, which view matches the judge at the time.

    TFred

    ETA: Of course few of us are lawyers, and none of us give legal advice over the internet, but I suspect if you ignore policy signs (don't look for them, don't ask for them, don't stop to read them while in view of a security camera), be polite, leave if asked, and answer every question with "what sign?" you will probably be fairly safe. JMHO, of course.
    That's my favorite: "What sign?"
    ...To make my bullets go faster!

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Yeah, boy, did YOU open a can of worms with this one!

    As you read, there are two very opposite views on this, and in fact, I believe your observation of the stark difference between the Texas sign definition, and the fact that Virginia has NOTHING in the code about such signs is a clear indication that supports the "not force of law" viewpoint.

    But we have agreed to disagree and still be friends... awaiting that court case that will never come to show which view is... well, which view matches the judge at the time.

    TFred

    ETA: Of course few of us are lawyers, and none of us give legal advice over the internet, but I suspect if you ignore policy signs (don't look for them, don't ask for them, don't stop to read them while in view of a security camera), be polite, leave if asked, and answer every question with "what sign?" you will probably be fairly safe. JMHO, of course.
    There are times when I'm happy to test the envelope here in TX.... but as a visitor to your State, I'm more inclined to be a polite guest and not push the rules. I do get your point, however.

    Seems to me that VA is much more relaxed about gun laws, and guns in general, than TX. That's a bit of a surprise, given the political makeup of the northern part of the state. Definitely refreshing.

    Here in TX there seems to be an air of "don't f- it up because the antis will use it as an excuse for gun control". It's been 6 frustrating years of enduring a RINO House speaker appointing D committee chairmen to oversee progress on gun bills here. We get incremental progress but OC and campus carry never make it out of committee and the best bill of the year was destroyed by a Senate amendment that added special privileges for politicians and left citizens out in the cold. At least the House had enough honor to reject it, but it killed a good bill.

    Maybe VA is more relaxed because VA is freer?

    Do you think attitudes changed in VA as OC became accepted/commonplace? Or was VA always where they are today?

  18. #18
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoyGBiv View Post

    Maybe VA is more relaxed because VA is freer?

    Do you think attitudes changed in VA as OC became accepted/commonplace? Or was VA always where they are today?
    Except for a brief period during reconstruction, OC has always been legal in Va. Country people have always OCed and was never an issue. The change came when thanks to OCDO, people in the burbs started to realize they could legally carry without a permit.

    Law Enforcement has always realized it was legal but tried to discourage it in the cities and burbs. Incidents like the Tony's 7 brought the abuses to light.

    Unfortunately, IMO, "Shall Issue" permits have complicated OC which is the closest thing we have to Constitutional Carry. The two could coexist very well if the meddling would stop.....but it won't as long as there's a buck to be made.

    I guess the real answer to acceptance is how OCers behave. If I go in a crowded place either unarmed or CC and behave like someone that's going to hurt people, they'll be concerned. If I go there OCing and behave well, people notice the gun, ask questions once in a while but aren't a bit afraid. That's one of the biggest benefits to the monthly dinners and weekly breakfasts.

    I hope you all get Texas in line. Been there and liked the folks there, loved the country but I'll never go back because of the legal system and Government. I wish you the best and hope you enjoy your stay in Va.
    Last edited by peter nap; 06-14-2013 at 10:11 AM.

  19. #19
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Except for a brief period during reconstruction, OC has always been legal in Va. Country people have always OCed and was never an issue. The change came when thanks to OCDO, people in the burbs started to realize they could legally carry without a permit.

    Law Enforcement has always realized it was legal but tried to discourage it in the cities and burbs. Incidents like the Tony's 7 brought the abuses to light.

    Unfortunately, IMO, "Shall Issue" permits have complicated OC which is the closest thing we have to Constitutional Carry. The two could coexist very well if the meddling would stop.....but it won't as long as there's a buck to be made.

    I guess the real answer to acceptance is how OCers behave. If I go in a crowded place either unarmed or CC and behave like someone that's going to hurt people, they'll be concerned. If I go there OCing and behave well, people notice the gun, ask questions once in a while but aren't a bit afraid. That's one of the biggest benefits to the monthly dinners and weekly breakfasts.

    I hope you all get Texas in line. Been there and liked the folks there, loved the country but I'll never go back because of the legal system and Government. I wish you the best and hope you enjoy your stay in Va.
    This is why peter nap is one of our astute and respected emissaries. Nicely done, Peter. Well written.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

  20. #20
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoyGBiv View Post
    There are times when I'm happy to test the envelope here in TX.... but as a visitor to your State, I'm more inclined to be a polite guest and not push the rules. I do get your point, however.

    Seems to me that VA is much more relaxed about gun laws, and guns in general, than TX. That's a bit of a surprise, given the political makeup of the northern part of the state. Definitely refreshing.

    Here in TX there seems to be an air of "don't f- it up because the antis will use it as an excuse for gun control". It's been 6 frustrating years of enduring a RINO House speaker appointing D committee chairmen to oversee progress on gun bills here. We get incremental progress but OC and campus carry never make it out of committee and the best bill of the year was destroyed by a Senate amendment that added special privileges for politicians and left citizens out in the cold. At least the House had enough honor to reject it, but it killed a good bill.

    Maybe VA is more relaxed because VA is freer?

    Do you think attitudes changed in VA as OC became accepted/commonplace? Or was VA always where they are today?
    One would certainly think that would be the case... that the upper regions of the state (pains me to say "Northern" Virginia) would be more of a problem for OC'ers. But for some reason, we don't see it. I can't explain it but for some reason, they just seem to know that this is a Virginia thing (they being the transplants since there are only around 20% of us natives up here).

    The first time I ever OC'd was, I think, in 1970 in Front Royal into a restaurant for breakfast before heading out to hunt. Most of the men in there were carrying openly. Oops, there was another time when I OC'd in either the late 60's or 1970 in Annandale (Fairfax County). It was after midnight and I was running out to see who was trying to steal my car and the police just happened to be there. Nothing was said about the single action revolver stuffed in my pants (barefoot and not shirt to boot).

    Open carry has burst upon the scene up here and some believe it had its present day roots in an incident in Reston, VA. I can't say for certain what year that was but 2004 or 2006 seems to ring a bell. Now for what it's worth, this morning I went to a McDonald's for a simple breakfast then to my local bank. Next up was a trip to a Giant grocery store to drop off two prescriptions. About 2 hours later, back to that same Giant to pick up the prescriptions. All of these trips were made while OC'ing and nothing, not one thing was said. No glaring looks, no wide-eye stares, no screaming children, no adults running for exits, and no nasty comments. Nothing. Clothes were jeans, barefeet in leather boat shoes, and a shirt not tucked in (Virginia tuck with the shirt). Just another day of normalcy.
    Last edited by SouthernBoy; 06-14-2013 at 05:59 PM.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

  21. #21
    Accomplished Advocate user's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Yeah, boy, did YOU open a can of worms with this one!

    As you read, there are two very opposite views on this, and in fact, I believe your observation of the stark difference between the Texas sign definition, and the fact that Virginia has NOTHING in the code about such signs is a clear indication that supports the "not force of law" viewpoint.

    But we have agreed to disagree and still be friends... awaiting that court case that will never come to show which view is... well, which view matches the judge at the time.

    TFred

    ETA: Of course few of us are lawyers, and none of us give legal advice over the internet, but I suspect if you ignore policy signs (don't look for them, don't ask for them, don't stop to read them while in view of a security camera), be polite, leave if asked, and answer every question with "what sign?" you will probably be fairly safe. JMHO, of course.
    I feel constrained to point out that the overwhelming bulk of Virginia law is not in the Code of Virginia. See Va. Code sxn 1-200 and 1-201 (and keep in mind that the fourth year of the reign of James I was 1607, the date of the founding of Jamestown). Virginia law is quite clear (again, don't rely on the Code for this) that signage does have the force of law. But it doesn't make entering private property posted with a "gunbusters" sign while carrying any kind of a "firearms offense". When you violate the terms that the person having an interest in the real property states as conditions upon which you are permitted to enter his property, that's trespassing, both civilly and, if communicated by a sign posted by the person in charge of the property, criminally.

    I vote with my dollars. (Oh, and by the way, that principle doesn't stop with stores having objectionable signage. I try very hard not to do business with anyone located in Maryland, DC, Massachussetts, New York, New Jersey, Illinois, Eastern Pennsylvania, California, or Hawaii.)
    Last edited by user; 06-15-2013 at 09:51 PM.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

  22. #22
    Regular Member Esanders2008's Avatar
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    Two Quick VA Questions: Retention and "Covered" OC

    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    I feel constrained to point out that the overwhelming bulk of Virginia law is not in the Code of Virginia. See Va. Code sxn 1-200 and 1-201 (and keep in mind that the fourth year of the reign of James I was 1607, the date of the founding of Jamestown). Virginia law is quite clear (again, don't rely on the Code for this) that signage does have the force of law. But it doesn't make entering private property posted with a "gunbusters" sign while carrying any kind of a "firearms offense". When you violate the terms that the person having an interest in the real property states as conditions upon which you are permitted to enter his property, that's trespassing, both civilly and, if communicated by a sign posted by the person in charge of the property, criminally.

    I vote with my dollars. (Oh, and by the way, that principle doesn't stop with stores having objectionable signage. I try very hard not to do business with anyone located in Maryland, DC, Massachussetts, New York, New Jersey, Illinois, Eastern Pennsylvania, California, or Hawaii.)
    But in order to be charged with criminal trespass, or be sued, does the sign itself provide sufficient notice? It does a person have to first ask you to leave?
    ...To make my bullets go faster!

  23. #23
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    I feel constrained to point out that the overwhelming bulk of Virginia law is not in the Code of Virginia. See Va. Code sxn 1-200 and 1-201 (and keep in mind that the fourth year of the reign of James I was 1607, the date of the founding of Jamestown). Virginia law is quite clear (again, don't rely on the Code for this) that signage does have the force of law. But it doesn't make entering private property posted with a "gunbusters" sign while carrying any kind of a "firearms offense". When you violate the terms that the person having an interest in the real property states as conditions upon which you are permitted to enter his property, that's trespassing, both civilly and, if communicated by a sign posted by the person in charge of the property, criminally.

    I vote with my dollars. (Oh, and by the way, that principle doesn't stop with stores having objectionable signage. I try very hard not to do business with anyone located in Maryland, DC, Massachussetts, New York, New Jersey, Illinois, Eastern Pennsylvania, California, or Hawaii.)
    I don't doubt your analysis, but please tell me why we don't see people being arrested for sneaking popcorn into movie theaters or violating any other posted signage, or while we're at it, in general, why we would expect (or even allow) our law enforcement agencies to be the enforcers of policies of privately owned property? To me, it seems a "don't do this" is a private policy, which should not be a crime until it becomes a refusal to leave.

    There are lots of signs that are ignored every day, either on purpose or inadvertently. Many nice stores post "no food or drink" signs, because they don't want to risk spillage. When was the last time you heard of someone being arrested for that, with no warning, based solely on the sign being posted? Does any reasonable person think that is an acceptable action by either a property owner OR our law enforcement agencies? If it's not reasonable with food, then why is it reasonable with a gun?

    Once again, WE are our own worst enemies.

    TFred

  24. #24
    Regular Member wrearick's Avatar
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    RoyGBiv,
    Welcome to the forum and to Virginia. Alot of good info has been provided so I will just point out an additional area that is confusing in the code and some places have old data (law changed 2-3 years ago and not all sites have kept up).

    You don't give your age but should there is one area of switching from concealed to Open or back due to clothing creates an issue. .. restaurants that serve alcohol.

    Law used to be you couldn't CC in a place that served.....that changed to you CAN CC in those establishments but can not consume alcohol. However, you CAN OC and consume. There are some who will suggest that it is wiser to not consume if you are carrying, just as they suggest a retention holder is a good idea and there is an element of it potentially "hurting the cause" if an incident were to occur but you asked for straight answers and you are an adult and should be allowd to make your choices within what the law allows, not what others are comfortable with. (comment is NOT pointed at ANYONE).

    You can find plenty of folks who recommend you don't OC, only CC
    Folks recommend you don't drink and drive (perfectly legal up to a point) etc.

    Now that said, IF you are legally intoxicated or under the influence of illegal drugs and carrying a weapon the system will make a DUI look like a good day, so be smart. Know your limits and stay well below them. As noted here folks are very tollerant of other folks wearing sidearms but they will start to get nervous when that person is observed to be drinking, especially in large quantities.

    Be safe

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrearick View Post
    there is one area of switching from concealed to Open or back due to clothing creates an issue. .. restaurants that serve alcohol.

    Law used to be you couldn't CC in a place that served.....that changed to you CAN CC in those establishments but can not consume alcohol. However, you CAN OC and consume.
    I did catch that in reading up on the VA laws, but thanks very much for pointing it out... Somebody who reads this down the line will likely benefit from the clarification. Didn't make sense to me the old way. CC not ok in a licensed restaurant, only OC... Makes much better sense to be able to CC anywhere you can OC... but.. whoever said laws have to make sense.

    Actually, I got the impression from my reading that the "OC is ok in a licensed restaurant" came about by some omission that nobody cared enough to "fix". I guess when it's not causing any problem, why try to fix it?

    Quote Originally Posted by wrearick View Post
    There are some who will suggest that it is wiser to not consume if you are carrying, just as they suggest a retention holder is a good idea and there is an element of it potentially "hurting the cause" if an incident were to occur but you asked for straight answers and you are an adult and should be allowd to make your choices within what the law allows, not what others are comfortable with. (comment is NOT pointed at ANYONE).

    You can find plenty of folks who recommend you don't OC, only CC
    Folks recommend you don't drink and drive (perfectly legal up to a point) etc.

    Now that said, IF you are legally intoxicated or under the influence of illegal drugs and carrying a weapon the system will make a DUI look like a good day, so be smart. Know your limits and stay well below them. As noted here folks are very tollerant of other folks wearing sidearms but they will start to get nervous when that person is observed to be drinking, especially in large quantities.

    Be safe
    I'm not sure I could OC and drink alcohol. Maybe sitting around the fire at hunting camp, but that's hardly a "public" occasion. I think it hurts the cause... YMMV. Generally I try to avoid alcohol and ANY carrying in public, but I'm not opposed to a drink at home while barbecuing (OC or CC).

    Cheers.

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