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Two Quick VA Questions: Retention and "Covered" OC

user

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Yeah, boy, did YOU open a can of worms with this one! :)

As you read, there are two very opposite views on this, and in fact, I believe your observation of the stark difference between the Texas sign definition, and the fact that Virginia has NOTHING in the code about such signs is a clear indication that supports the "not force of law" viewpoint.

But we have agreed to disagree and still be friends... awaiting that court case that will never come to show which view is... well, which view matches the judge at the time.

TFred

ETA: Of course few of us are lawyers, and none of us give legal advice over the internet, but I suspect if you ignore policy signs (don't look for them, don't ask for them, don't stop to read them while in view of a security camera), be polite, leave if asked, and answer every question with "what sign?" you will probably be fairly safe. JMHO, of course.

I feel constrained to point out that the overwhelming bulk of Virginia law is not in the Code of Virginia. See Va. Code sxn 1-200 and 1-201 (and keep in mind that the fourth year of the reign of James I was 1607, the date of the founding of Jamestown). Virginia law is quite clear (again, don't rely on the Code for this) that signage does have the force of law. But it doesn't make entering private property posted with a "gunbusters" sign while carrying any kind of a "firearms offense". When you violate the terms that the person having an interest in the real property states as conditions upon which you are permitted to enter his property, that's trespassing, both civilly and, if communicated by a sign posted by the person in charge of the property, criminally.

I vote with my dollars. (Oh, and by the way, that principle doesn't stop with stores having objectionable signage. I try very hard not to do business with anyone located in Maryland, DC, Massachussetts, New York, New Jersey, Illinois, Eastern Pennsylvania, California, or Hawaii.)
 
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Esanders2008

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I feel constrained to point out that the overwhelming bulk of Virginia law is not in the Code of Virginia. See Va. Code sxn 1-200 and 1-201 (and keep in mind that the fourth year of the reign of James I was 1607, the date of the founding of Jamestown). Virginia law is quite clear (again, don't rely on the Code for this) that signage does have the force of law. But it doesn't make entering private property posted with a "gunbusters" sign while carrying any kind of a "firearms offense". When you violate the terms that the person having an interest in the real property states as conditions upon which you are permitted to enter his property, that's trespassing, both civilly and, if communicated by a sign posted by the person in charge of the property, criminally.

I vote with my dollars. (Oh, and by the way, that principle doesn't stop with stores having objectionable signage. I try very hard not to do business with anyone located in Maryland, DC, Massachussetts, New York, New Jersey, Illinois, Eastern Pennsylvania, California, or Hawaii.)

But in order to be charged with criminal trespass, or be sued, does the sign itself provide sufficient notice? It does a person have to first ask you to leave?
 

TFred

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I feel constrained to point out that the overwhelming bulk of Virginia law is not in the Code of Virginia. See Va. Code sxn 1-200 and 1-201 (and keep in mind that the fourth year of the reign of James I was 1607, the date of the founding of Jamestown). Virginia law is quite clear (again, don't rely on the Code for this) that signage does have the force of law. But it doesn't make entering private property posted with a "gunbusters" sign while carrying any kind of a "firearms offense". When you violate the terms that the person having an interest in the real property states as conditions upon which you are permitted to enter his property, that's trespassing, both civilly and, if communicated by a sign posted by the person in charge of the property, criminally.

I vote with my dollars. (Oh, and by the way, that principle doesn't stop with stores having objectionable signage. I try very hard not to do business with anyone located in Maryland, DC, Massachussetts, New York, New Jersey, Illinois, Eastern Pennsylvania, California, or Hawaii.)
I don't doubt your analysis, but please tell me why we don't see people being arrested for sneaking popcorn into movie theaters or violating any other posted signage, or while we're at it, in general, why we would expect (or even allow) our law enforcement agencies to be the enforcers of policies of privately owned property? To me, it seems a "don't do this" is a private policy, which should not be a crime until it becomes a refusal to leave.

There are lots of signs that are ignored every day, either on purpose or inadvertently. Many nice stores post "no food or drink" signs, because they don't want to risk spillage. When was the last time you heard of someone being arrested for that, with no warning, based solely on the sign being posted? Does any reasonable person think that is an acceptable action by either a property owner OR our law enforcement agencies? If it's not reasonable with food, then why is it reasonable with a gun?

Once again, WE are our own worst enemies.

TFred
 

wrearick

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Virginia Beach, Va.
RoyGBiv,
Welcome to the forum and to Virginia. Alot of good info has been provided so I will just point out an additional area that is confusing in the code and some places have old data (law changed 2-3 years ago and not all sites have kept up).

You don't give your age but should there is one area of switching from concealed to Open or back due to clothing creates an issue. .. restaurants that serve alcohol.

Law used to be you couldn't CC in a place that served.....that changed to you CAN CC in those establishments but can not consume alcohol. However, you CAN OC and consume. There are some who will suggest that it is wiser to not consume if you are carrying, just as they suggest a retention holder is a good idea and there is an element of it potentially "hurting the cause" if an incident were to occur but you asked for straight answers and you are an adult and should be allowd to make your choices within what the law allows, not what others are comfortable with. (comment is NOT pointed at ANYONE).

You can find plenty of folks who recommend you don't OC, only CC
Folks recommend you don't drink and drive (perfectly legal up to a point) etc.

Now that said, IF you are legally intoxicated or under the influence of illegal drugs and carrying a weapon the system will make a DUI look like a good day, so be smart. Know your limits and stay well below them. As noted here folks are very tollerant of other folks wearing sidearms but they will start to get nervous when that person is observed to be drinking, especially in large quantities.

Be safe
 

RoyGBiv

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Tejas
there is one area of switching from concealed to Open or back due to clothing creates an issue. .. restaurants that serve alcohol.

Law used to be you couldn't CC in a place that served.....that changed to you CAN CC in those establishments but can not consume alcohol. However, you CAN OC and consume.
I did catch that in reading up on the VA laws, but thanks very much for pointing it out... Somebody who reads this down the line will likely benefit from the clarification. Didn't make sense to me the old way. CC not ok in a licensed restaurant, only OC... :question: Makes much better sense to be able to CC anywhere you can OC... but.. whoever said laws have to make sense.

Actually, I got the impression from my reading that the "OC is ok in a licensed restaurant" came about by some omission that nobody cared enough to "fix". I guess when it's not causing any problem, why try to fix it?

There are some who will suggest that it is wiser to not consume if you are carrying, just as they suggest a retention holder is a good idea and there is an element of it potentially "hurting the cause" if an incident were to occur but you asked for straight answers and you are an adult and should be allowd to make your choices within what the law allows, not what others are comfortable with. (comment is NOT pointed at ANYONE).

You can find plenty of folks who recommend you don't OC, only CC
Folks recommend you don't drink and drive (perfectly legal up to a point) etc.

Now that said, IF you are legally intoxicated or under the influence of illegal drugs and carrying a weapon the system will make a DUI look like a good day, so be smart. Know your limits and stay well below them. As noted here folks are very tollerant of other folks wearing sidearms but they will start to get nervous when that person is observed to be drinking, especially in large quantities.

Be safe
I'm not sure I could OC and drink alcohol. Maybe sitting around the fire at hunting camp, but that's hardly a "public" occasion. I think it hurts the cause... YMMV. Generally I try to avoid alcohol and ANY carrying in public, but I'm not opposed to a drink at home while barbecuing (OC or CC).

Cheers. :lol:
 

RoyGBiv

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Just a quick observation....

Not having OC here in TX, I've not had much need to join here until recently, although I have been an occasional lurker here for a while... I've been involved in lobbying for TX-OC through local groups.

What really impresses me about this forum is the tone... Very few posts of what I would call "an immature or confrontational nature". Good debate, certainly. If you ever find yourself in need of Texas CHL information, the place to go for a similarly mature experience is TexasCHLForum.com.

Thanks again for the warm welcomes and advice.
 

wrearick

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[snipet] I'm not sure I could OC and drink alcohol. Maybe sitting around the fire at hunting camp, but that's hardly a "public" occasion. I think it hurts the cause... YMMV. Generally I try to avoid alcohol and ANY carrying in public, but I'm not opposed to a drink at home while barbecuing (OC or CC).

Cheers. :lol:

I agree with your decision, but felt it important to accurately answer your question on what was legal in Virginia and not impose my own bias on the answer by ommitting the parts I don't think are good ideas. We complain when the anti's only present data that supports their view point, I am trying to follow a higher standard and allow you to behave in a manner that best exemplifies and demonstrates responsible gun ownership. I may advise against exercising the right to drink in Virginia while OCing but I will not deny you that right (even by ommision) JMHO.
 

SouthernBoy

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Just a quick observation....

Not having OC here in TX, I've not had much need to join here until recently, although I have been an occasional lurker here for a while... I've been involved in lobbying for TX-OC through local groups.

What really impresses me about this forum is the tone... Very few posts of what I would call "an immature or confrontational nature". Good debate, certainly. If you ever find yourself in need of Texas CHL information, the place to go for a similarly mature experience is TexasCHLForum.com.

Thanks again for the warm welcomes and advice.

You need to peruse some more of the threads. Some of our members can get quite heated, I can assure you. You learn pretty quickly which ones they are and to leave them to their own devices. Personally, I prefer to do just that.
 
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RoyGBiv

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I agree with your decision, but felt it important to accurately answer your question on what was legal in Virginia and not impose my own bias on the answer by ommitting the parts I don't think are good ideas. We complain when the anti's only present data that supports their view point, I am trying to follow a higher standard and allow you to behave in a manner that best exemplifies and demonstrates responsible gun ownership. I may advise against exercising the right to drink in Virginia while OCing but I will not deny you that right (even by ommision) JMHO.
10-4! Never meant to infer otherwise.
tiphat.gif



You need to peruse some more of the threads. Some of our members can get quite heated, I can assure you. You learn pretty quickly which ones they are and to leave them to their own devices. Personally, I prefer to do just that.

Our local OC hotheads like to call out our State representatives in a heated manner...
Even our local NRA board members have a hard time speaking in favor of OC in TX for fear of getting lumped in by association with the hotheads.

Really is a shame... That sort of behavior is almost always counterproductive.
 
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The Wolfhound

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Opinions are like.......

Everybody has at least one. All of us believe our opinions to be the conclusion of emense and thorough rational thought. The only problem with this is that some of us are gravely mistaken.:lol:
 

RoyGBiv

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Just wanted to follow up and say THANKS! for the advice... Just back from VA on Saturday and the only problem I had the entire trip (besides the weather) was almost missing my flight out of DFW for standing on the wrong line to check my bag...

Best part?.... I really enjoyed carrying OWB... Soooooo much more comfortable.

Visited Manassas Battlefield, Appomattox and Monticello and carried everywhere except inside the buildings at Manassas and Appomx. Was pleased to find out that Monticello is privately owned and operated and didn't see that it was posted anywhere so... I carried (although not OWB here... went the full concealed route).

Only slight disappointment was that I didn't see a single open-carry the entire time (except uniform LE). I did see several folks not trying very hard to conceal carry.... but no OC.

Thanks again.!
RGB

5pg3.jpg
 

Marco

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SNIP-

Only slight disappointment was that I didn't see a single open-carry the entire time (except uniform LE). I did see severable folks not trying very hard to conceal carry.... but no OC.

Thanks again.!
RGB

View attachment 10588



Wish I had seen this thread earlier I would have tried to join you for some lunch/coffee our something while you were in the c'ville area.

I have oc'ed at Monticello without issue. Glad you had a hassle free oc experience in VA.
 
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SouthernBoy

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Just wanted to follow up and say THANKS! for the advice... Just back from VA on Saturday and the only problem I had the entire trip (besides the weather) was almost missing my flight out of DFW for standing on the wrong line to check my bag...

Best part?.... I really enjoyed carrying OWB... Soooooo much more comfortable.

Visited Manassas Battlefield, Appomattox and Monticello and carried everywhere except inside the buildings at Manassas and Appomx. Was pleased to find out that Monticello is privately owned and operated and didn't see that it was posted anywhere so... I carried (although not OWB here... went the full concealed route).

Only slight disappointment was that I didn't see a single open-carry the entire time (except uniform LE). I did see several folks not trying very hard to conceal carry.... but no OC.

Thanks again.!
RGB

View attachment 10588

I'm pleased your time in our state was pleasantly spent and hope you return in the future. Next time, if you have the time, look some of us up. We do enjoy "meets and greets" with new people and I'm sure you would enjoy the get together as well.
 

RoyGBiv

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I'm pleased your time in our state was pleasantly spent and hope you return in the future. Next time, if you have the time, look some of us up. We do enjoy "meets and greets" with new people and I'm sure you would enjoy the get together as well.

If my time was my own I would certainly have done so.... I received two invites via PM as well. Very friendly bunch you VA folks are. However, this was a family trip and the schedule was pretty full. Did manage to get some shooting in... pistol and skeet. My kids are getting to be pretty good shooters :) /brag. Almost ran over a HUGE turkey with the ATV and captured 2 bears (maybe the same one twice) on the game camera.... about 700 feet from where we were cooking dinner.... I guess bears like smoked chicken too... :uhoh: :lol:
 
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