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Thread: Arrested as a result of Open Carry

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Arrested as a result of Open Carry

    This incident began last year.

    An Alabamian attending college in Georgia was sitting at a McDonald's enjoying their fine dining cuisine with his wife and children when he was approached by two officers of the Columbus Police Department. Officers Baldwin and Mills demanded to know if Stubbs had a license to carry a firearm. Stubbs affirmed to the officers that not only did he possess a license but was also exempt from being required to possess one by virtue of OCGA 16-11-130 (the same section of Georgia law that permits law enforcement officers to carry firearms). Stubbs declined to produce his license as no suspicion of illegal conduct was made.
    The officers then met with McDonald's employees and came back to say that McDonald's wished for Stubbs to leave the premises. When Stubbs began to gather up his wife, children and belongings the officers informed him it was too late for that and arrested him for criminal trespass.

    Stubbs retained Georgia lawyer John R. Monroe who filed this complaint under 42 U.S.C. § 1983.

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    sounds like the question is NOT a question of carry but one of trespass. You cannot dilly dally ...

    If told someone to leave your land, how quick would you want them off?

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Will be following this one.

    While I realize that Georgia is in the 11th circuit court district, look at this recent decision from the 4th circuit which I believe will carry some weight.
    http://www.steakleylawfirm.com/index...ys-4th-circuit
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Arrested as a result of Open Carry

    If the facts are as presented in the OP, it sounds as if the cops were spoiling for trouble, and the OCer was willing to do what was necessary to avoid trouble.

    If the victim posts here, if the facts turn out to be essentially correct, and if the victim creates a defense fund, this is precisely the kind of case to which I will make a small contribution and encourage others to help.


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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    sounds like the question is NOT a question of carry but one of trespass. You cannot dilly dally ...
    It's not clear that they did. The cops didn't ask them to leave until after they talked to McDonald's staff. No mention is made of them being asked to leave before that. Since Stubbs obeyed the request to leave, only pausing to gather up his family and belongings (which seems reasonable), it looks to me like an abusive arrest i.e. the officers decided that "didn't leave within a second of being asked" equals "trespass".

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    I agree that as presented it sounds like the police expected him to instantly teleport to somewhere outside the building, and since he didn't they arrested him.
    John Monroe will tear them to pieces.
    I have a good supply of popcorn... need to get some soda/pop to go with it though. BRB

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    Regular Member conandan's Avatar
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    Doesn't the management need to ask him to leave personally. How does he know that the officers didn't force the manger to push the trespass. I've seen posts on here that show the same thing cops show up and then go to the owners or management to try and get a trespass charges when they have nothing else to violate the oc'er. And then not giving him time to collect his things and family is bs.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    I agree that as presented it sounds like the police expected him to instantly teleport to somewhere outside the building, and since he didn't they arrested him.
    John Monroe will tear them to pieces.
    I have a good supply of popcorn... need to get some soda/pop to go with it though. BRB
    Hot and buttered for me, thank you!
    Speaking of Mr. Monroe, although he's been a member of Glocktalk.com since May 2007 (5-6 years?) it was this incident that prompted him to make his very first post there.

    Someone questioned the events and suggested that perhaps Mr. Stubbs caused a disturbance which prompted the officer's actions. JRM did not directly link to the police report but attested that the full and complete text of the official report was as follows...
    "On 07-09-12, at approximately 1323 hours, Corporal K.L. Baldwin and Officer R.S. Mills came in contact with the aforementioned arrested person who was inside McDonald's, 1436 Manchester Expressway with a loaded weapon carried in his waistband. The weapon Springfield 45 caliber will be logged into Property & Evidence for storage. Investigation continues."

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by conandan View Post
    Doesn't the management need to ask him to leave personally. How does he know that the officers didn't force the manger to push the trespass. I've seen posts on here that show the same thing cops show up and then go to the owners or management to try and get a trespass charges when they have nothing else to violate the oc'er. And then not giving him time to collect his things and family is bs.
    OCGA 16-7-21 (- contents partially snipped for clarity - )
    Georgia Code - Crimes and Offenses - Title 16, Section 16-7-21
    (b) A person commits the offense of criminal trespass when he or she knowingly and without authority:
    ...
    (3) Remains upon the land or premises of another person ... after receiving notice from the owner, rightful occupant, or, upon proper identification, an authorized representative of the owner or rightful occupant to depart.

    Technically, one must be identified as an authorized representative of the owner but I suppose courts don't have much objection to the notice to leave being relayed through the authority of a police officer.

    Perhaps, in light of recent happenings at Gary Pirkle Park and the Columbus McDonalds (and the fact that police are in no way legally bound to tell the truth about such matters if they believe that withholding the truth will assist in apprehending a miscreant) that should be looked at again with a fresh eye?
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 06-13-2013 at 10:52 PM.

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    Regular Member conandan's Avatar
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    I have no problem leaving if asked to leave. But to charge him with trespass while getting his family and things together so he could leave is over the line IMHO. I open carry in Georgia and I will be in Columbus in a few weeks. Hopefully I won't have the same trouble with the leos there.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by conandan View Post
    I have no problem leaving if asked to leave. But to charge him with trespass while getting his family and things together so he could leave is over the line IMHO. I open carry in Georgia and I will be in Columbus in a few weeks. Hopefully I won't have the same trouble with the leos there.
    Sadly, the more I read the the police report and the more I read comments from purported police officers on various forums, the more I am convinced this was more a case of, "Boy, I'ma gonna arrest you and make your evening miserable while I go home, have a steak and a beer, and watch me some TeeVee." that it is about trespass or disorderly conduct.
    Mr Stubbs done gone and disrespected some police officer's 'authoritah'.

    If you ever do have any "difficulties" with our beloved public servants, I highly recommend John R. Monroe. The mere mention of his name strikes fear in the hearts of evil doers.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 06-14-2013 at 12:12 AM.

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    Regular Member mark5019's Avatar
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    but the ride will pay off in the end mr monroe will have a field day
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    sounds like the question is NOT a question of carry but one of trespass. You cannot dilly dally ...

    If told someone to leave your land, how quick would you want them off?
    According to the account, the land owner did not ask/demand he leave.
    Last edited by wrightme; 06-14-2013 at 01:25 PM.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger
    Mr Stubbs done gone and disrespected some police officer's 'authoritah'.
    Exactly. If there had been any sort of disturbance, it would be in their report.

    If you ever do have any "difficulties" with our beloved public servants, I highly recommend John R. Monroe. The mere mention of his name strikes fear in the hearts of evil doers.
    +1,000,000 And not just in GA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by randian View Post
    It's not clear that they did. The cops didn't ask them to leave until after they talked to McDonald's staff. No mention is made of them being asked to leave before that. Since Stubbs obeyed the request to leave, only pausing to gather up his family and belongings (which seems reasonable), it looks to me like an abusive arrest i.e. the officers decided that "didn't leave within a second of being asked" equals "trespass".
    This crap happens all too often at McDs. We should boycott...

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    Quote Originally Posted by jegoodin View Post
    This crap happens all too often at McDs. We should boycott...
    I do not see this as a McDonald initiated problem.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jegoodin View Post
    This crap happens all too often at McDs. We should boycott...
    why bocott pvt property has there rights to say no weapons, but this wasnt started by mc ds
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    Quote Originally Posted by mark5019 View Post
    why bocott pvt property has there rights to say no weapons, but this wasnt started by mc ds
    Boycott to not support those with money.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Quote Originally Posted by wrightme View Post
    Boycott to not support those with money.
    Why penalize McD's who as not taken a negative stance?

    The problem would seem to stem from an errant officer who intimidated a McD employee. IMO better to go through corporate and/or franchise channels to retrain the employee that allowed for this..........if in fact he/she did so.

    I have been to untold numbers of McDonalds in numerous states and never had a problem with their management regarding legal carry.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Why penalize McD's who as not taken a negative stance?

    The problem would seem to stem from an errant officer who intimidated a McD employee. IMO better to go through corporate and/or franchise channels to retrain the employee that allowed for this..........if in fact he/she did so.

    I have been to untold numbers of McDonalds in numerous states and never had a problem with their management regarding legal carry.
    No, that isn't what I advocate. I simply responded to a 'why boycott' general question. This wasn't about McD as near as I can tell.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Regular Member mark5019's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrightme View Post
    Boycott to not support those with money.
    but it wasnt mc ds who did this was idiot leo
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    Quote Originally Posted by mark5019 View Post
    but it wasnt mc ds who did this was idiot leo
    It was a McDs employee who rolled to LEO pressure. McDs should have a corporate policy like Starbucks , which would prevent most of these incidents from taking place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mark5019 View Post
    but it wasnt mc ds who did this was idiot leo
    No kidding. See the post above yours.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jegoodin View Post
    It was a McDs employee who rolled to LEO pressure. McDs should have a corporate policy like Starbucks , which would prevent most of these incidents from taking place.
    To be accurate, we can't really be sure of this.
    There is no mention in the official police report that any McDonald's employee acquiesced to any officer's entreaties. I strongly suspect that the "It's too late (to pack up and leave), you're under arrest" was planned. Any experienced officer would know that the charge would immediately be tossed out as soon as the county solicitor saw it, .... and that the officer would likely face absolutely no repercussions for abusing his authority with the goal of discomfit someone who did not kowtow properly.

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