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Thread: If you did not have a permit, how many minutes did your NCIC take to proceed?

  1. #1
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    If you did not have a permit, how many minutes did your NCIC take to proceed?

    Since I use PPP here in NC I do not have to deal with the problems of NCIC on firearm purchases. Years ago when I attempted to use the system it was a disaster, on the weekend delays that went into over 24 hours, on every single transaction. I was told what the problem was, that problem is now deceased. I have been told by some that the problems are minimal, but to me they are not when I am on the loosing end.

    So how instant was the instant check for you?
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    Every instant check I've done has truly been instant-it took me longer to fill out the 4473 than it did to get the "proceed." This includes both phone-in and e-check.

    With the amount of business shops around here have had lately, I've generally spent a LOT more time waiting for an available register to pay for the gun than to get a response.

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    And yet more changes to the story. This time you are clearly implying a "delay." Delays happen. Even I have had one (not yesterday when I bought my .22/.22 mag Heritage revolver). Even one of my associates who is a retired cop got delayed once. They happen. If the computer, for whatever reason, cannot make the instant call, it kicks out the query to be handled by a human. That takes time.

    I don't like NICS checks any more than anyone else here. I believe them to be an infringement on the Right. That being said, at the moment, if you buy from an FFL, they are the law.

    Delays add up to three business days (five days over a weekend, six if a holiday is thrown in). After that time, if the government can't get its act together, the FFL can sell the gun without a "proceed." Delays can be as short as a few minutes. Some customers have not gotten out of the store before the delay became a proceed. The computer was down and came back up. The process was completed by the computer, and the proceed was spit out.

    However, if one knows that the delay will turn into a deny, one will run far and fast from it, and then be all indignant about it. I think that is what has happened in the case one post up.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joanie View Post
    WoW, At no time, in no reply did I ever say I was deny. I said I didn't pass the check, that is what I said, and I didn't. If this was to qualify as an instant check, then I can still say I didn't pass it. I never did this before, least not that I can remember. I expected, and the seller confirmed this, that I would give him my DL and the money, he would do whatever, and it would be a done deal. The way he described it, made it seem as though some sellers do it many different ways. He said there would be no wait period. When I did the check and it was flagged or whatever, delayed, I expected it was because of my criminal record, worse, a criminal record that I didn't, and don't deserve. He said same as you "no big deal, just come back and pick it up when you get it cleared up or when it clears possibly on it's own. I told him I had no intention of returning and he should sell to someone else. Then drove home thinking about what it was that flagged the instant check. Sidenote- It wasn't easy for me to fill that stupid form out also, I had to be racist and put white. He would not accept me crossing it out and writing in "human"

    Besides, I thought you weren't talking to me. Not that i mind, I'll address all topics and replys that come my way. Just confused.
    There are three, and only three, possible outcomes on a NCIC check.

    #1 - Proceed

    #2 - Delay (meaning for whatever reason NCIC cannot figure things out at the moment)

    #3 - Deny

    Now you throw a whole new ball of wax into the mix: "He said there would be no wait period." Waiting periods are the mandatory delay between when you pay for your firearm and when you can legally pick it up and take it home. They are sometimes referred to as "cooling off periods". In order to pay for your firearm you need to get a PROCEED on the NCIC check.

    You admit that you have a criminal record. It would seem logical therefore that you know what crimes are in your criminal record. It does not take a rocket surgeon to figure out if one or more of those crimes are most likely disqualifiers. It takes some, but not a whole lot, of time and effort to get "unfair" or improper criminal records expunged.

    This http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MLp7YNTznE might not apply, but right now the odds are more in favor than against it.

    stay safe.
    Last edited by skidmark; 06-15-2013 at 06:55 AM. Reason: typo
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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bunnspecial
    Every instant check I've done has truly been instant-it took me longer to fill out the 4473 than it did to get the "proceed."
    Ditto.

    Quote Originally Posted by joanie
    I was forced to pick a race other than "human"... I had to be racist and put white. He would not accept me crossing it out and writing in "human"
    Glad to hear someone else does this.

    I could not pass it while I was there, so I chose not to return and swore off all such purchases.
    There are lots of good reasons to be delayed, all of which can be sorted out if you go through the process already explained in the other thread (and do not have a criminal or psych record which makes you a prohibited person).
    There are lots of good reasons to buy privately, but doing so because you can't pass a NICS check at a dealer is not one of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by joanie
    At no time, in no reply did I ever say I was deny.
    I said I didn't pass the check, that is what I said, and I didn't.
    In your other thread, where you've also gotten much good advice and help, you said you were denied.
    And if you don't pass the check, that results in a denial.
    If there's something that needs looking into, it's a delay and the FFL will tell you that.

    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark
    You admit that you have a criminal record. It would seem logical therefore that you know what crimes are in your criminal record. It does not take a rocket surgeon to figure out if one or more of those crimes are most likely disqualifiers. It takes some, but not a whole lot, of time and effort to get "unfair" or improper criminal records expunged.
    This was addressed by many people in the other thread she posted being upset about driving from Grove City (Columbus area) to the Cleveland area. Never did understand why she didn't use a local FFL to save the driving. Have the gun shipped to the local.

  6. #6
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    My appoligies, I had not intended on this being a Joanie thread. Joanie, I have no problem with you posting, but keep in mind your issues were addressed and help was offered. I do value your input into how long it took if you were delayed. But I do not want this to be a bash Joanie, or a Joanie against the world thread. I hope you understand.

    My problems and they are over ten years old go back to a man with the same name wanted in several countries for some very bad things. The baffling part was he had a different date of birth, lived in a different country, or countries, and clearly was not I. When I addressed the problem to the sheriff he investigated and told me and advised using PPP for every purchase. Problem was solved. Even if I had obtained a PIN, I would have still gone through somewhat of a wait, because on weekends gun shows seemed to put a strain on the system. FFL dealers told me at that time wait was at least 30 minutes. It seems it has got faster except when the system crashes.

    While most people do not get delays, I can sympathize with Joanie as it is completely frustrating. And it does make you feel like a criminal when the FFL comes back and says you are delayed. And people around assume there are Joanie type circumstances for it. I have not called yet about the process for a PIN, but will need to as PPP will be no longer very soon. Maybe eye can outline again who to contact and the process for us.

    If a person has drove miles and miles to get a delay they have three choices. Spend money for a hotel, go home and forget it, or continue driving back and forth. None of them I find acceptable.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 06-15-2013 at 09:49 AM.
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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joanie View Post
    Skidmark,............... please do not address me futher on this or any other topic. Thank you
    You will lose out on this. I have found Skid to be a good source of information, anecdotal expieriance and OC law. You are new here and seem to have a chip on your shoulder. Your blustery attitude will win you no friends here.


    On the other note......I have a relative in Philadelphia with the same name as mine. He is a union thug and not very popular with the local government (teamsters vp). Because of him I will get delayed, not denied, every time I try to purchase a weapon without my 03FFL. I know it will delayed so I factor that in on an acquisition.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie View Post
    You will lose out on this. I have found Skid to be a good source of information, anecdotal expieriance and OC law. You are new here and seem to have a chip on your shoulder. Your blustery attitude will win you no friends here.


    On the other note......I have a relative in Philadelphia with the same name as mine. He is a union thug and not very popular with the local government (teamsters vp). Because of him I will get delayed, not denied, every time I try to purchase a weapon without my 03FFL. I know it will delayed so I factor that in on an acquisition.
    This is what baffles me, it is the same system police use when running a check. With DOB added name there are no problems with a stop. Even years ago before Al Gore invented the internet I could be clear that individuals were free of convictions and warrants in a timely manner. Yet to this day it seems that the government is not up to date with firearms background checks, as compared to running a criminal check in the field. I have been stopped a couple times for license checks as a CDL operator, and with my name being the same, and using my DOB I NEVER had a problem.
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    Once they actually got the information inputted. I would say about 2 seconds, and that is giving time for lag in the system.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by joanie

    WoW, At no time, in no reply did I ever say I was deny. I said I didn't pass the check, that is what I said, and I didn't. If this was to qualify as an instant check, then I can still say I didn't pass it. I never did this before, least not that I can remember. I expected, and the seller confirmed this, that I would give him my DL and the money, he would do whatever, and it would be a done deal. The way he described it, made it seem as though some sellers do it many different ways. He said there would be no wait period. When I did the check and it was flagged or whatever, delayed, I expected it was because of my criminal record, worse, a criminal record that I didn't, and don't deserve. He said same as you "no big deal, just come back and pick it up when you get it cleared up or when it clears possibly on it's own. I told him I had no intention of returning and he should sell to someone else. Then drove home thinking about what it was that flagged the instant check. Sidenote- It wasn't easy for me to fill that stupid form out also, I had to be racist and put white. He would not accept me crossing it out and writing in "human"

    Besides, I thought you weren't talking to me. Not that i mind, I'll address all topics and replys that come my way. Just confused.
    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    There are three, and only three, possible outcomes on a NCIC check.

    #1 - Proceed

    #2 - Delay (meaning for whatever reason NCIC cannot figure things out at the moment)

    #3 - Deny

    Now you throw a whole new ball of wax into the mix: "He said there would be no wait period." Waiting periods are the mandatory delay between when you pay for your firearm and when you can legally pick it up and take it home. They are sometimes referred to as "cooling off periods". In order to pay for your firearm you need to get a PROCEED on the NCIC check.

    You admit that you have a criminal record. It would seem logical therefore that you know what crimes are in your criminal record. It does not take a rocket surgeon to figure out if one or more of those crimes are most likely disqualifiers. It takes some, but not a whole lot, of time and effort to get "unfair" or improper criminal records expunged.

    This http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MLp7YNTznE might not apply, but right now the odds are more in favor than against it.

    stay safe.
    Quote Originally Posted by joanie View Post
    Skidmark, this topic is about how many minutes did your NCIC take to proceed? please do not address me futher on this or any other topic. Thank you
    Skidmark was replying to your post. Therefore if anyone went off-topic, it would have been you. IMO it is not off-topic to correct the false impression you gave, especially arguing the semantics between "didn't pass the check" and denied/delayed.

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    Re: If you did not have a permit, how many minutes did your NCIC take to proceed?

    Least amount of time was ~3 minutes, longest was just over an hour (2 major gun shows happening that weekend, combined with DPS only having 2 operators handling the checks).

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    If you did not have a permit, how many minutes did your NCIC take to proceed?

    Didn't pass the check = denied.

    Delayed = the check is not complete.

    If you say, "did not pass the check," you said "denied."

    The FFL would have clearly explained to you "delay" and that it could turn into a proceed or deny later, or, after about five days, he could simply transfer you the firearm then. However, you drama-queened what happened to you and tried not to be pinned down to the actual facts and refused all offers of help.

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    If you did not have a permit, how many minutes did your NCIC take to proceed?

    To give folks an idea of how long an instant check is:

    It takes about 3 minutes to enter the information into the NICS website. We then click a button for retrieve. A list of all current checks for our FFL comes up. Usually, the current check says "NEW." We click on that, and a "CONTINUE" button comes up. We click on that, and there is the PROCEED or the DENY. If it is a DELAY, we will see that instead of NEW.

    After keying in the information, it is seconds before we see the NEW. On rare occasions, it is a few minutes. If it takes longer than that, we'll say, "I feel a delay coming on."


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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joanie View Post
    Skidmark, this topic is about how many minutes did your NCIC take to proceed? please do not address me futher on this or any other topic. Thank you
    OK, let's actually stay on topic just for the grins & giggles.

    Every NICS check I have gone through has resulted in a DELAY that was resolved just short of the 3-busines-days time limit. Every single blessed one.

    And I know precisely why. And can do nothing about it but be moderately to highly amused.

    Any time my name/SSN pops up in a database check a red flag goes up and whoever is running the check receives a notice to contact an operatot at either NSA or NIS (Naval Intelligene Service). My government apparently intends, from roughly 1972 when they started this until the day after I die, to know who is checking up on me and why. There are no skeletons involved and nobody's career or name will be hurt if what I might or might not know (but that I can not confirm nor can I deny that I do or do not know) is ever released.

    Do I have a record of convictions for criminal acts? Nope. Everything I was charged with at that General Court Martial was reported as not guilty, and the NJP for wilfull destruction of government property (to wit: one (1) .45ACP round) is considered a civil rather trhan criminal matter. The fact that I've been arrested a few times since seems not to bother anybody because the charges were dismissed with prejudice or I was found not guilty.

    So - knowing/expecting that I am going to get a DELAY, what do I do? Basically I look at the FFL and smile while telling them I expected it and that I'll be back in three days to complete the transfer. Yes, it's a PITA as well as irritating to know why it happens, but the only two alternatives are to be locked up in a federal supermax or to be dead. I'll pass on both for as long as I can.

    But here's the thing - I used the system to find out why I was always coming up as a DELAY. It took a bit more work than most folks who are trying to find out why they came up DENY or DELAY, but it got done because I followed the steps instead of whining and whinging.

    stay safe.
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    Isn't the correct abbreviation. NICS. Not NCIC. Just asking!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scvette View Post
    Isn't the correct abbreviation. NICS. Not NCIC. Just asking!
    Yes - National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS)
    http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nic...rm-transaction
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    I spent so many years dealing with NCIC, it is almost automatic to post that instead of NICS. But NCIC functions at a alarmingly better and more efficient then NICS, and they use the same arrest or conviction records. There has to be a level of incompetence that one can be clear on one system, and have delays on the other. As I suspected it seems the same people are consistently getting delayed, so the claims that it is minor is not true if on the receiving end. If the government can't fix it, to treat all citizens the same, it needs to go.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    I spent so many years dealing with NCIC, it is almost automatic to post that instead of NICS. But NCIC functions at a alarmingly better and more efficient then NICS, and they use the same arrest or conviction records. There has to be a level of incompetence that one can be clear on one system, and have delays on the other. As I suspected it seems the same people are consistently getting delayed, so the claims that it is minor is not true if on the receiving end. If the government can't fix it, to treat all citizens the same, it needs to go.
    I had a denial one time,I couldn't pursue it as I had to leave for work for a few months,when I got back I went to buy another pistol,it took a bunch of retrys to get it through,but after about 15 minutes they got the proceed. Now about 2 months ago I went and tried to get 2 stripped lowers,this was on a Thursday morning,so I get another delay,no biggie I thought,they said call back on Sat and see if they heard anything,so sat still nothing,I decide to wait and see if they call me,nope they don't,so I go there on a Wednesday,they see me,still no reply,so they try to run it again,comes back delay,so they type it in that its been 5 days and they give me the 2 lowers,off I go. So I'm back at work in a remote location,and I'm talking to my wife and she tells me she was checking the messages on the phone and I have a call from AtF,they want me to call,so I call the agent and he asks me if I bought 2 lowers and do I still have them,I tell him I do,he then tells me that NICS gave me a denial,he said ATF lawyers are talking to FBI lawyers about my situation,told me I'm not in trouble but I might have to get them out of my name,told me he would get back to me in a couple weeks,so I wait,kinda freaking out a little bit. A lil side note,I did have an issue 30yrs ago but my rights have been restored for 26yrs. So he calls me and tells me in his eyes I'm not a prohibited person and he was closing the case. The one thing he did say was,I'm good in the Feds eyes,good in Ak where I was in trouble along time ago,but in Wa state where I live now,that's why it was flagged,so I am having a lawyer do everything to get my rights restored in Wa. I do have a Wa cpl and a Utah CWP. It's going to cost my 1800 to get this all done,should be done by the end of next week though.

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    The last several years pretty much instant unless the FFL was backed up or the system was down.

    The first 5 years after I retired from the military I was delayed every time; the last delay was for 5 days. I never could find out why? Just rolled with the punches.

  20. #20
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    Re: If you did not have a permit, how many minutes did your NCIC take to proceed?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShootinRugers View Post
    The last several years pretty much instant unless the FFL was backed up or the system was down.

    The first 5 years after I retired from the military I was delayed every time; the last delay was for 5 days. I never could find out why? Just rolled with the punches.
    IIRC a delay not followed up within 3 business days after it was sent to the FFL is basically the same as approved, and the FFL may complete the transaction. Most decent FFL's know this. NICS is very busy with the huge upswing in purchases. If you are flagged for review it takes a human to review the flag - I know police who have been delayed. Delays seem to be becoming more frequent IMHO. Remember you can be flagged if you have a similar name as a felon etc... Joe Smith v Jo Smith and are close in locale, age, race & so on.
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    Regular Member ron73440's Avatar
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    I bought my pistol at a gun show and not knowing a lot about them and always hearing about the "gun show loophole", I was surprised when I had to fill out a PPP(pistol purchase permit). It irritated me, but I really wanted the Baby Eagle, so I did it. It took about 90 minutes and I was able to pick it up.

    I decided after that I would never buy a new gun again, all of my prior purchases had been from buddies at work.
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    Re: If you did not have a permit, how many minutes did your NCIC take to proceed?

    A coworker got delayed. He had to wait the 3 days to pick his up. This was about a month after receiving his carry permit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    IIRC a delay not followed up within 3 business days after it was sent to the FFL is basically the same as approved, and the FFL may complete the transaction. Most decent FFL's know this. NICS is very busy with the huge upswing in purchases. If you are flagged for review it takes a human to review the flag - I know police who have been delayed. Delays seem to be becoming more frequent IMHO. Remember you can be flagged if you have a similar name as a felon etc... Joe Smith v Jo Smith and are close in locale, age, race & so on.
    Maybe similar name or something. I don't know when I filled out the paperwork I was told to come back in 5 days. I do know when I moved to Ohio after retiring, for about the first 5 years just about everything I did was a hassle. It took me two days get an Ohio drivers license.

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    Seems like every other time I buy or tranfer a gun I have a delay. I recently had to return an SP101 .22 to Ruger due to an extraction issue and when the FFL ran it, there was no delay. I wish MO would get that system where if you have a CCW, you can skip the NICS.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    I usually have to do between two and four a day. NOT counting the time it takes to walk over, dial the number, and recite the pertinent information to the nice robot-voice person on the other end* the delay is all the time it takes to for them to say, "The NTN for this transaction is A-Alpha, Six, N-November, Three, Dash, B-Boy, 7, L-Lima."
    Sometimes we get a "This transaction requires further review" and a transfer to another agent. That usually adds a minute or three. A delay happens about once a month and I think we've had one "Denied" in the last half decade.


    * Humorously said, but they DO have a script and any faltering from the script gets a "I apologize ..." and a restatement or "my options are ..." when you say pistol instead of handgun or long arm instead of long gun.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 06-28-2013 at 11:35 AM.

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