Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 37

Thread: KYOWVA Mall

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Ashland, KY
    Posts
    43

    KYOWVA Mall

    Was at the kyowva mall today with my daughter when a security guard approached me and said that it was against mall policy for me to have my firearm. Now I specifically looked at all signs on my way in and there wasn't a single sign about firearms. Not wanting to cause a scene and because my daughter really wanted a new book from the library I said no problem and returned to my vehicle and locked up my gun. As I reenterrd the mall this janitor looking fellow approached me and asked if I was the guy with the firearm. I said yes and he immediately asked if I had removed it. I told him I had and he preceded to try and tell me it was illegal for me to have that in his mall. I'm trying at this point to walk away but this guy keeps following me. I assure him it is not illegal and that "his" mall was not posted so state law allowed me carry there. I told him that a single sign could've prevented this and his response was "if you bring that back in here I will call the police". When I turned around I guess the look on my face said enough for him to back off and I told him to call whoever he wants. At no point was I asked to leave so I took my daughter to get her book. That will be the last time I step foot in that mall for anything.

    Pardon any errors I'm on my phone. Thank you.

    KYOVA Mall sorry for spelling errors.
    Last edited by Big Daddy XD; 06-16-2013 at 12:42 AM.

  2. #2
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Louisa, Kentucky
    Posts
    1,694
    Were the mall contains both a public library and the County Clerk I do think that they legally have to allow you access to these two places as long as you are not breaking any laws.

    Were these two places are renting a percentage of the parking lot and of the mall, I don't see how they can stop you.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Gravel Switch, KY
    Posts
    544
    That is quite the conundrum since the Boyd County Public Library and the Boyd County Clerk are in that complex.

    http://www.kyovatristatemall.com/StoreDirectory.htm

  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Ashland, KY
    Posts
    43
    Yes I was also confused by this. KRS says I'm allowed to carry at both of these places however I have to walk through private owned property to get to these places. I plan on emailing the higher ups of the mall today. I'm sure of the response I will get but I'm going to send it anyway. Are they in violation of any KRS denying me access to libary and clerks office with my firearm?

  5. #5
    Activist Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Ashland, KY
    Posts
    1,847
    Being as the mall is private property they can prohibit firearms -- they can do so regardless of the county owned portions of the mall.

    The problem is the mall's own signage CLEARLY states the carrying of firearms is not permitted UNLESS authorized by state law. Obviously state law authorizes everyone to carry a firearm openly, therefore carry is allowed in the KYOVA mall.

    Sounds like this ignorant (or possibly just stupid) security GUARD doesn't even know the mall's policy. These security guards are contracted and do not work for the mall, but for the company "BWH" which also does pre-trial releases (home-incarceration) for the Circuit and District courts here in BC. The way this company ended up winning the bid for this gig still has people scratching their heads. Oh, the first time around they didn't even bid the work and the County just started throwing money their way. Anyways, I'm trying to say this company is shady, and it doesn't surprise me that they hire people that have no idea as to what they can and can't do.
    Last edited by KYGlockster; 06-16-2013 at 06:49 PM.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

  6. #6
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Louisa, Kentucky
    Posts
    1,694
    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    Please cite the statute(s) that says that.
    His words were wrong, but the meaning still stands. The KRS says that those places cannot regulate OC since nothing else is regulating OC then it is legal to carry there.

    These places can't trespass me simply because I am carrying a firearm, so the mall lost the authority to trespass me for it when they rented space to these public offices.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

  7. #7
    Regular Member neuroblades's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    , Kentucky, USA
    Posts
    1,240
    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    His words were wrong, but the meaning still stands. The KRS says that those places cannot regulate OC since nothing else is regulating OC then it is legal to carry there.

    These places can't trespass me simply because I am carrying a firearm, so the mall lost the authority to trespass me for it when they rented space to these public offices.
    Looks like we need to do a "walk through" next weekend at the EKOC meeting, what do you think? *LOL*
    Got SIG? MOLON LABE

  8. #8
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Louisa, Kentucky
    Posts
    1,694
    Quote Originally Posted by neuroblades View Post
    Looks like we need to do a "walk through" next weekend at the EKOC meeting, what do you think? *LOL*
    I think something needs to be done.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

  9. #9
    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    3,887
    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    Being as the mall is private property they can prohibit firearms -- they can do so regardless of the county owned portions of the mall.

    The problem is the mall's own signage CLEARLY states the carrying of firearms is not permitted UNLESS authorized by state law. Obviously state law authorizes everyone to carry a firearm openly, therefore carry is allowed in the KYOVA mall...
    (my bold)

    So Kentucky law makes private property rights moot? I'm eagerly awaiting a cite...
    Last edited by BB62; 06-17-2013 at 09:57 AM.

  10. #10
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Louisa, Kentucky
    Posts
    1,694
    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    Please cite the statute that says that.
    511.90(2).

    Mall security/ other mall personal does not have the authority to trespass you on state (as in government) owned or rented property (even if it is owned by the mall) unless they are specially authorized by the governing body. This would be the fiscal court if I am not mistaken.

    Nobody can trespass you where you have legal authority to be.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

  11. #11
    Activist Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Ashland, KY
    Posts
    1,847
    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    (my bold)

    So Kentucky law makes private property rights moot? I'm eagerly awaiting a cite...
    Hey bub, I suggest you read my post a little more thoroughly before you reply with such nonsense.

    The MALL'S SIGN stating THEIR policy SPECIFICALLY states that carry is ALLOWED if AUTHORIZED by law! Kentucky law authorizes anyone and everyone to carry a firearm as long as they are not a felon and if they do not have any misdemeanor DV convictions!

    IT'S THE MALL'S POLICY -- NOT MY WORDS! If the mall has changed this policy, then they need to change their signs to reflect said change. When they have a sign at every entrance that states carry is allowed if authorized by law, then anyone that knows Kentucky law will know they can carry inside the establishment.

    Either the mall has changed its policy and the signs haven't been changed to reflect it, or the security guard doesn't know what he is doing and/or saying. I would put my money on the second option!

    A security guard cannot make up his own policy according to his own bias, and that seems to be the issue. When the mall's policy is on big signs for everyone to see that contradicts what he said (that carry is not allowed when the sign says otherwise) then he is exercising authority that he does NOT have.

    Yes, if the mall has changed their policy to a "no firearms" policy then one must leave when asked, regardless of the county offices. But the signs have not changed, therefore carry must still be allowed in the building since that is what policy states.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

  12. #12
    Activist Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Ashland, KY
    Posts
    1,847
    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    511.90(2).

    Mall security/ other mall personal does not have the authority to trespass you on state (as in government) owned or rented property (even if it is owned by the mall) unless they are specially authorized by the governing body. This would be the fiscal court if I am not mistaken.

    Nobody can trespass you where you have legal authority to be.
    While inside the county owned portions of this building you are correct; once you are outside of the county owned portions and inside the actual mall then you CAN be trespassed if asked to leave and you don't. Just because the county has leased/purchased a retail spot in the store for their government related activities does not mean the whole mall becomes county property. Once outside of the leased/purchased area you are NO longer on county property.

    This is moot however because the signs in the mall state carry is allowed if authorized by State law. State law authorizes us all to carry, so we can carry in the mall. The sign specifically states this is MALL POLICY, so the SECURITY GUARD cannot make up his own policy concerning this issue.

    Even if mall policy has changed, the security guard couldn't trespass you. To get trespassed someone who has control of the mall would have to do so, not a security guard for a company CONTRACTED by the mall to provide security services.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

  13. #13
    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    3,887
    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    Hey bub, I suggest you read my post a little more thoroughly before you reply with such nonsense.

    The MALL'S SIGN stating THEIR policy SPECIFICALLY states that carry is ALLOWED if AUTHORIZED by law! Kentucky law authorizes anyone and everyone to carry a firearm as long as they are not a felon and if they do not have any misdemeanor DV convictions!...
    I think we both know that the mall doesn't interpret "authorize" the same way you and I might prefer - right bub?
    Last edited by BB62; 06-17-2013 at 04:37 PM.

  14. #14
    Activist Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Ashland, KY
    Posts
    1,847
    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    I think we both know that the mall doesn't interpret "authorize" the same way you and I might prefer - right bub?
    I believe they do -- authorize would be used with its standard definition. They can't "interpret" a word with a definitive meaning to make it mean what they wish. They used the word "authorize" as a fancy way to trick people into thinking they can only carry if the law specifically authorizes them to carry in the mall. Anyone who has moderate intelligence will know what the law authorizes, and that since they stated we can carry if authorized then we can carry in their facility.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

  15. #15
    Regular Member CharleyCherokee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    WesternKy
    Posts
    294
    If there are county offices being leased in the private property then wouldn't they have to allow the carry in the walkways to and from those offices? I understand there is a OAG stating that a court can't prevent the carry of firearms in the common walkways to these offices if they are located in the building. Would this have no bearing in a privately operated scenario? I would think you could make a strong argument that it would.
    A bullet may have your name on it, but shrapnel is addressed to whom it may concern.
    Why open carrying is a good idea: http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-14...encounter.html

  16. #16
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Louisa, Kentucky
    Posts
    1,694
    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    While inside the county owned portions of this building you are correct.
    I think that the county is leasing space.

    Still though, when you rent anything to anyone access to that is included in the rent. Part of the parking lot and halls, even if it isn't a specific part, is included with the leasing of that space.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

  17. #17
    Activist Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Ashland, KY
    Posts
    1,847
    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    I think that the county is leasing space.

    Still though, when you rent anything to anyone access to that is included in the rent. Part of the parking lot and halls, even if it isn't a specific part, is included with the leasing of that space.
    I completely agree with you on principle. The problem lies with property rights. The mall is leasing these spaces to the county, which means they are still the rightful owners of the property to and from the leased areas, and they exercise control over those areas. If you must walk through these areas to get to the portions of the building the county has lease, you are walking through property that is NOT owned or leased by the county, which means you must abide by what the property owners want.

    Even in the leased areas, those that lease the areas from the mall normally sign a lease agreement that states they must also abide by the mall's rules and regulations.

    This is a tricky area, but it is my OPINION that carry to these places can be prevented if the mall has a policy that prohibits firearms. Again, the mall's current policy is to allow firearms, so the security guard cannot make his own policy for the mall that he has no control over.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

  18. #18
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Ashland, KY
    Posts
    43
    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post







    I assume that you mean KRS 511.090 (2). The state plays no role here. These are county agencies. You and I may wish it said that, but it doesn't. The mall might be trespassing you on mall owned property not leased to the county. This is such a fine distinction that you may have a difficult time getting your way. IMO the only chance you would have is to look at the lease and see exactly what it says about the property leased and the limits on the area included. If they were foolish enough to specify the exact area leased by the county and it specified that access and/or parking was included, you might have a chance with a good judge. Do either of these county agencies have direct access without using the mall? If "yes", you've got no chance. Even if "no", this is not a battle that I would pick to fight in court. You might end up paying their attorney's fees as well as your own. At a minimum expect an appeal, no matter who wins in Circuit Court.

    If any of you are looking for a fight, you might check the Boyd Co. Health Dept. and the other branches of the Boyd Co. Library. Those are located on county owned property and illegally prohibit firearms, or at least they used to. I have not heard of their present policy. They used to have "no guns" signs and policies. This is a fight that has a strong possibility of being won with minimum risk, if it exists.
    I do not know about the health dept but the Ashland Branch of the library has no signs on the door stating anything about firearms. I have not yet ben in there while ocing but no signs on the doors is a good sign.

  19. #19
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Ashland, KY
    Posts
    43
    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    I completely agree with you on principle. The problem lies with property rights. The mall is leasing these spaces to the county, which means they are still the rightful owners of the property to and from the leased areas, and they exercise control over those areas. If you must walk through these areas to get to the portions of the building the county has lease, you are walking through property that is NOT owned or leased by the county, which means you must abide by what the property owners want.

    Even in the leased areas, those that lease the areas from the mall normally sign a lease agreement that states they must also abide by the mall's rules and regulations.

    This is a tricky area, but it is my OPINION that carry to these places can be prevented if the mall has a policy that prohibits firearms. Again, the mall's current policy is to allow firearms, so the security guard cannot make his own policy for the mall that he has no control over.
    I made a point of looking at all the doors where I entered. There were no mentions of firearms. On both sides of the space between the sets of doors are the mall rules. Neither of these has any mention of firearms. So with no gun buster signs I assumed it was allowed. Tats what I get for assuming. I am emailing the mall manager today. I didn't get a chance to yesterday. Her name is Chrissy Dillows. Her email is chrissydillows@eggleston-associates.com if anyone else is interested in dropping her a line.

  20. #20
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Louisa, Kentucky
    Posts
    1,694
    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    Any volunteers for this?
    Yes
    Last edited by 09jisaac; 06-18-2013 at 09:00 PM.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

  21. #21
    Activist Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Ashland, KY
    Posts
    1,847
    Quote Originally Posted by Big Daddy XD View Post
    I made a point of looking at all the doors where I entered. There were no mentions of firearms. On both sides of the space between the sets of doors are the mall rules. Neither of these has any mention of firearms. So with no gun buster signs I assumed it was allowed. Tats what I get for assuming. I am emailing the mall manager today. I didn't get a chance to yesterday. Her name is Chrissy Dillows. Her email is chrissydillows@eggleston-associates.com if anyone else is interested in dropping her a line.
    If you had read the "mall rules" poster carefully you would have noticed it does mention the carrying of weapons. It is on this sign where it states the carrying of weapons is not allowed UNLESS authorized to do so by law. We are ALL authorized to do so, so we can carry according to their own rules.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

  22. #22
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Ashland Kentucky
    Posts
    8
    Saw you guys were talking about the Boyd Co. Library and the health department. I've been to both a little over a month ago and there were no signs at all at the health department. I carried and had no problems. When we went to the library there was a sign at the second set of doors when you walk in. I believe it said something to te effect of, no concealed deadly weapons allowed on the premises, violation of this rule will result in loss of library priveleges. I may be wrong on the wording but they did have a sign up about concealed weapons I'm pretty sure. I carried in there with no problems. I'm pretty sure both people working behind the counter saw it too.

    To big daddy xd, I dont know how long it's been since you were at the library so they Couldve taken it down but like I said the last time I was there it was up, just not on the first set of doors.

  23. #23
    Activist Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Ashland, KY
    Posts
    1,847
    Quote Originally Posted by Markal1990 View Post
    Saw you guys were talking about the Boyd Co. Library and the health department. I've been to both a little over a month ago and there were no signs at all at the health department. I carried and had no problems. When we went to the library there was a sign at the second set of doors when you walk in. I believe it said something to te effect of, no concealed deadly weapons allowed on the premises, violation of this rule will result in loss of library priveleges. I may be wrong on the wording but they did have a sign up about concealed weapons I'm pretty sure. I carried in there with no problems. I'm pretty sure both people working behind the counter saw it too.

    To big daddy xd, I dont know how long it's been since you were at the library so they Couldve taken it down but like I said the last time I was there it was up, just not on the first set of doors.
    It states something along the lines of "No weapons, concealed or otherwise, unless specifically authorized by law." It is something to this effect. I will find out tomorrow if I can just remember to go to both places. I am going to try and get to them so we can get this problem SOLVED.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

  24. #24
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Ashland, KY
    Posts
    43
    Here is the actual sign. Its posted on the second set of doors as you enter the library. I guess I missed it the other day.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMAG0250.jpg 
Views:	182 
Size:	89.8 KB 
ID:	10535  

  25. #25
    Activist Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Ashland, KY
    Posts
    1,847
    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    Does Boyd Co. have an ordinance, Glockster?

    No, Boyd County has NO ordinances relative to firearms in any way.

    The last time I was at the health department they had a HUGE sign across their door that stated "NO CONCEALED FIREARMS OR WEAPONS!" The only reason they would have removed this sign (in my opinion) would be if they got word that they were being watched, because this sign was there for years. It covered nearly half of their entire door, which was beyond ridiculous.

    I am about to go and pick up my pay-check and I am going to stop by there just to make sure it is indeed gone.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •