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Thread: OC Understaing & Clarification

  1. #1
    Regular Member BroadwayJoe's Avatar
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    OC Understanding & Clarification of Rights

    So I have been exercising my rights to OC here and there and would like to do this full time. I have no conundrums or hesitation about doing so, however, I do feel like I need a better understanding of my rights. In the event I were to encounter a dispute from LEO, or uneducated Joe citizen, I do not feel I am as equipped verbally and factually as I should be. I am a firm believer in standing up for my rights, others rights and what I believe in, I just feel it is difficult to argue a case if you don't have all the facts to do so.

    I have printed and read the flyer on this site as well as the NCDOJ Firearms Laws dated Dec 2011.

    NJDOJ does not site anything specific to statues concerning open carry, that is legal or lawful. There is some mention under CC statutes that site reference to not being allowed open or conceal carry, for example schools, but again nothing specifically pertaining to open carry.

    I assume the right lies in Article 1 Sec. 30? I noticed it has language to really discourages concealed carry and found that quite interesting. I particularly enjoyed the "as standing armies in time of peace are dangerous to liberty, they shall not be maintained, and the military shall be kept under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power." Things that make you go hmmmmmm.

    Look a puppy- Without getting sidetracked, according to Article 1, several of my rights like not agreeing to paying taxes (sec. 8) are being abused daily as I never consented, but that is an entirely different subject and conversation- It just makes me sick.

    I guess my question here is there a statute that specifically sites my ability as a citizen to lawfully open carry or is it just Article 1 Sec. 30, the right to keep and bear arms?

    What factual information and lawful artillery do I have to defend this right?

    I have no problem educating others and being and advocate to protect our 2A rights, I just want the knowledge to do so confidently and properly educated to defend, protect my rights and ,make others aware.
    Last edited by BroadwayJoe; 06-17-2013 at 09:32 PM.

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    Regular Member rotorhead's Avatar
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    One of the main reasons as to why your search is coming up a bit empty is because you are confusing (possibly) the basic notion of law in the US which is also practiced in NC. It can be wrapped up with something like "laws do not tell us what we can do, they tell us what we cannot do".

    So while searching, you won't find many things at all that say "you may do this". Instead, what you find is limitations or outright prohibitions which outline those things which you cannot do, or those things which are limited by law. Simply put, the basic premise of your rights to carry guns lie in the fact that it is *not* mentioned in law. That which is not specifically banned by law is, in effect, legal. One can assume that carrying or owning guns in NC is legal because it is not forbidden by law. Instead, what you will find is certain limitations of that basic right which are spelled out in a few areas of NC law.

    Basically, you won't find a law that says "It's legal to carry guns", because it's inherently legal to do so. Instead, what you will find is limitations. This is true of all rights in every state and in US law.

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    Regular Member rotorhead's Avatar
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    One quick addition: for the legal basis of the right being established, simply refer back to the Second Amendment of the US Constitution. It's also spelled out in the NC Constitution, as well. Those two amendments simply address and acknowledge a right that is considered already in existence by default. Any "law" that you will find in US Code or NC statute simply work off of that basis and then restrict them as deemed necessary by lawmakers for the common good of the citizenry, for better or worse.

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    Well said. Inherent in our natural rights, in our Declaration of Independence, in our Bill of Rights and many states' constitutions.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member BroadwayJoe's Avatar
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    So in having a clear understanding, our rights are clearly spelled out in our 2nd amendment and Article 1 sec 30 of the NC Constitution and no current laws, at least in NC, state it is unlawful to do so.

    If stopped by LEO or told I am not within my right, he would have to advise me where it is sited in NC State Law that I am either prohibited or not within my right which he would not be able to do since it is not in existence.

    A few other questions pertaining to OC that I need to understand.

    1K school zone law. I cant even have my firearm in my vehicle when taking the kids to school? What the hell am I supposed to do with it then?

    I assume a daycare is not considered school zone since they are privately owned?

    Carrying in a place that serves alcohol. It is my understanding I can sit at a restaurant that serves alcohol if I am not consuming and not sitting in the designated bar area. Is this true so long as not sign posting otherwise is present at the entry?

    If attending a place that I am unable to carry on my person, is it lawful for me to lock my firearm in a glove box or console even if I am not a CC holder, or would it need to be in the trunk? If no, then again, where do I put it?

    I open carry IWB. Shirt is tucked behind the pistol as to make sure it is clearly visible. I avoid baggy shirts that could accidentally conceal. IWB is lawful?

    Lastly, I need a better way to secure my gun while driving. I have tried keeping it on my person but not the most comfortable and harder to have quick access if needed. Sitting on the seat isnt the most secure in the event of a sharp brake or having a passenger ride with. Suggestions here?

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    Regular Member dmatting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroadwayJoe View Post
    So in having a clear understanding, our rights are clearly spelled out in our 2nd amendment and Article 1 sec 30 of the NC Constitution and no current laws, at least in NC, state it is unlawful to do so.
    I am bad with court cases, but there was a case somewheres around 100 years ago that basically upheld the right. Kernersville V State or something like that? IDK

    If stopped by LEO or told I am not within my right, he would have to advise me where it is sited in NC State Law that I am either prohibited or not within my right which he would not be able to do since it is not in existence.
    Don't debate a cop. It is pointless. Ask "Am I free to go?" or "Am I being detained?". Obviously, during a traffic stop, you are being detained - but only for an alleged traffic violation.

    A few other questions pertaining to OC that I need to understand.

    1K school zone law. I cant even have my firearm in my vehicle when taking the kids to school? What the hell am I supposed to do with it then?
    Not sure what to tell you here. I'll let others give advice on this.

    I assume a daycare is not considered school zone since they are privately owned?
    I would not assume anything. I am not sure myself, but would err on the side of caution.

    Carrying in a place that serves alcohol. It is my understanding I can sit at a restaurant that serves alcohol if I am not consuming and not sitting in the designated bar area. Is this true so long as not sign posting otherwise is present at the entry?
    BZZZZ. Wrong. The establishment sells and serves. You can't carry there.

    If attending a place that I am unable to carry on my person, is it lawful for me to lock my firearm in a glove box or console even if I am not a CC holder, or would it need to be in the trunk? If no, then again, where do I put it?
    IANAL so grain of salt here - I, personally, would lock it in the glovebox or the trunk but it may depend on where you are as well.

    I open carry IWB. Shirt is tucked behind the pistol as to make sure it is clearly visible. I avoid baggy shirts that could accidentally conceal. IWB is lawful?
    From my perspective, if you can tell that it is a gun, then it isn't being concealed. In Virginia, CCers used to do what was refered to as the Virginia Tuck - where, before entering an establishment that served alcohol, they would tuck their shirt behind their gun so it would not be concealed anymore.

    Lastly, I need a better way to secure my gun while driving. I have tried keeping it on my person but not the most comfortable and harder to have quick access if needed. Sitting on the seat isnt the most secure in the event of a sharp brake or having a passenger ride with. Suggestions here?
    I think there are a lot of people who want a solution to this. An OWB holster on the hip is what many will do.

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    Regular Member rotorhead's Avatar
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    I'll try to answer a few of them. I'm not all-knowing so I'll ask that you confirm my answers. I am not a lawyer.

    1. There is no current law prohibiting OC in general in NC. It is the default mode of carrying that needs no permit. However, there are specific places where OCing is prohibited which are spelled out in law.

    2. As with any perceived violation of law, you must be told which laws you violated upon arrest or soon after. I would take dmatting's suggestion that you do not argue with LEOs, though. The burden of proof of a violation is upon the state, via its officers. They have to inform you of which laws you broke, or are suspected of breaking. You don't have to go through life justifying your behavior with laws to prove you are innocent. They mus demonstrate where behavior is in violation of law in order for a charge to stick.

    But, it's a good idea to have a basic understanding of the related laws (in this case, pertaining to state and Federal gun laws) so that you don't inadvertently violate them while carrying. The old axiom of "ignorance is no excuse" will surely come into play.

    3. Currently, you cannot take a firearm on any educational property. What you do with it to prevent doing so is not spelled out in law. I guess leave it at home, i dunno. It sucks, I know, but I don't think the law cares much about what we do with them, it just cares that we don't bring them onto school/ campus grounds.

    4. I'm not sure about daycare vs school grounds.

    5. You may not carry in an establishment where alcohol is both sold and consumed.

    6. When leaving a gun in a vehicle, you can hide it out of sight. In NC, accessibility is the key when deciding whether a weapon is concealed or simply being transported or stored. In other words, just before you exit your vehicle, you can hide your gun. Hide it, exit the vehicle, and go about your business. Once you return to the vehicle, simply bring the gun back into plain view. You're allowed a bit of time to do this, but it's not really spelled out as to whether it's a minute, 30 seconds, two minutes, or whatever. It'll be up to officer discretion, I believe. You do not need a CHP to store or transport your weapon out of sight- as long as it's not readily accessible. If it's not readily accessible, it's not concealed carry- it's either storage or transporting.

    7. The law is silent on IWB holsters. Again, if the gun is in plain sight, then it's not concealed and therefore you would need no CHP.

    8. Personally, I drive with mine in my holster. I'm sure there are other methods but that one works best for me.

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    Regular Member Eeyore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroadwayJoe View Post
    Lastly, I need a better way to secure my gun while driving. I have tried keeping it on my person but not the most comfortable and harder to have quick access if needed. Sitting on the seat isnt the most secure in the event of a sharp brake or having a passenger ride with. Suggestions here?
    It depends on what you drive and what gun you carry (holster availability).

    Many people find an appendix carry holster useful for accessibility while driving. Often abbreviated "AIWB" (Appendix Inside the WaistBand). Crossbreed and many others make them.

    Depending on what you drive, you may be able to find holsters that mount on your dashboard, steering column, center console, or the side of the seat. A web search will turn up examples of these.

    If I'm running errands where I'm getting into and out of the car a lot, I just use a cheapie nylon IWB holster with a metal belt clip. As I enter the car, I unclip it and wedge it between the driver seat and center console/parking brake. This keeps it accessible, and the gun never leaves the holster.
    Guns don't kill people. Drivers on cell phones do.

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    Glad to hear your OCing. Most everything has been covered hear but I will add a couple. If you read the NC gun laws, they were written before cc, if you notice it talks about where you cant carry,therefore, reading between the lines if it says where you cant carry and cc wasnt even an option then the other only option was OC. Next I would get a good level 2 retention holster such as a Black Hawk Serpa,if they make one for your gun and carry in your vehicle cross draw. I carry LH so its not a problem but I can see where a RH carrier would have issues with the seat belt. Cross draw would fix the problem. I also sometime carry cross draw out and about.

  10. #10
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    I usually don't feel I have a need for a firearm while driving down the road to worry about access. Where the need may come is those places when arriving or departing that the firearm might be needed. Outside maybe a traffic light or traffic jam. I usually take my gun belt off while driving, unless it is a short distance. If I am alone, it goes around the passenger seat, if she is driving I am more likely to keep it on, but it still can be fastened around the seat.

    If I am in a vehicle on the highway and a situation arises there are a lot of options that do not involve shooting.
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    Regular Member BroadwayJoe's Avatar
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    My daily carry holster is an IWB RH horsehair & kydex with J clips. I carry at about 2:30 position. I prefer appendix or about a 12:30/1:00 position, but you cant sit carrying that way unless you want the muzzle jammed into your thigh or pointing at the family jewels. I had a cheap Uncle Mike's nylon paddle holster with a retention strap for the range that I now keep in the car. I simply attach it to the seat belts waistband and let it just lay on my lap. Easy very close access, comfortable, secure and clearly open. My IWB has no retention and I am seriously considering a retention lanyard. Anyone have any opinions about a retention lanyard?

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroadwayJoe View Post
    My IWB has no retention and I am seriously considering a retention lanyard. Anyone have any opinions about a retention lanyard?
    Most of my weapons have lanyard rings. I do not use a lanyard in the Civilian world because I use a good retention holster. In the field, that sucker was tied to my belt and it worked great. If you use a lanyard on an iwb holster what would you attach it too? They come in slick little coiled wire style now, instead of para cord.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

  13. #13
    Regular Member BroadwayJoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie View Post
    If you use a lanyard on an iwb holster what would you attach it too?
    My gun has a lanyard ring. I have seen those coil type. I would just attach to the lanyard to the ring and secure it to my belt or loop I suppose.

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