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Thread: Is BATF already creating a gun registry?

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Is BATF already creating a gun registry?

    This email message was sent to all Gun Facts subscribers and is posted here with the consent of Guy Smith.


    If you are an FLL or know one, and if the BATF has been copying or scanning your 4473 records, I'd like to hear your story (if you are not an FLL or don't know any, the rest of this may not be of interest).


    Several people have reported that BATF field agents have been scanning or otherwise recording the 4473 forms. The assumption is that they are creating a piecemeal gun registry without congressional authorization (actually, against congressional instructions).

    I need to hear from FFLs or people who work at gun stores who have seen this happen with their own eyes. Your privacy is guaranteed, but what I want to learn is only:


    • When this started.
    • Are they copying all forms or just selected ones.
      • If just selected ones, is there a pattern you can detect.

    • How are they making copies and/or recording the form information.
    • Have they asked any questions or made any statements which indicate the purpose?


    Email me at guy@GunFacts.info (do not reply -- that goes into the bounce processor).


    Yours in Liberty
    Guy Smith
    This is something of which we should all be concerned. Congress tells us and them there is NO national registry and them BATF quietly goes about creating one....at least so it would seem.
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    The Exchange at Wright-Patt is an FFL. The ATF is not scanning 4473s.

    So far, they have requested a single trace since I have been there. That is less than 0.03%. Hardly a registry.

    Trust me, if the ATF were to start massively making copies of our 4473s, you'd hear it from me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    The Exchange at Wright-Patt is an FFL. The ATF is not scanning 4473s.

    So far, they have requested a single trace since I have been there. That is less than 0.03%. Hardly a registry.

    Trust me, if the ATF were to start massively making copies of our 4473s, you'd hear it from me.
    ONLY, if you saw it. You cannot speak for those you don't know or haven't encountered.
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Eye95 - I think what JoeSparky means is if this has happened at other FFLs, you would not necessarily have knowledge of it - it's a big country.

    No need to get upset - no one was challanging your integrity.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 06-18-2013 at 09:53 PM.
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    Thanks, Grapeshot.... Exactly!
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Considering the facts of Fast and Furious, internet and phone spying, IRS scandal, and many other instances of secret spying questions of government in any venture are valid. But then I only respect the actual moderators on this site, not the ones who think they control the conversations on their agenda instead of site rules.
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Good point. I misunderstood his post and will edit mine.

    However, to the point you clarified: Cite? Which FFLs have reported such scanning? Under what circumstances? Was the FFL being investigated for illegal activity? That will cause the ATF to go through the records with a fine-toothed comb.

    I prefer facts over questions. Anyone got any facts?
    No facts yet. We may have a whistle blower out there or it might be the BATF raking someone over the coals. That is what is this is attempting to resolve.

    The BATF has been known to go to extra ordinary lengths to persecute prosecute some.

    http://www.examiner.com/article/atf-violating-dealer-license-revocation-rules-defiance-of-policy-and-law


    http://www.examiner.com/article/rees...ts-for-defense
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    If FFLs were being scanned, they'd be making so much noise we couldn't help but hear.

    Until an FFL reports this is happening, it ain't happening. GS, I thought you were too rational to buy into conspiracy theory crap. Until an FFL comes forward, that is all that this is: a conspiracy theory with as much proof as a certain missing poster's contention that the guy who shot his family and then shot up a college was a false flag operation.
    Last edited by eye95; 06-18-2013 at 10:22 PM.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    LOL, I can't help but find humor in a wannabe mod attempting to spank the real mod...

    This should be good!
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    If FFLs were being scanned, they'd be making so much noise we couldn't help but hear.

    Until an FFL reports this is happening, it ain't happening. GS, I thought you were too rational to buy into conspiracy theory crap. Until an FFL comes forward, that is all that this is: a conspiracy theory with as much proof as a certain missing poster's contention that the guy who shot his family and then shot up a college was a false flag operation.
    I am hardly buying into a conspiracy theory by submitting a question as posed.

    If asking one FFL is all it takes to get a panoramic overview, that would be wonderful. I don't believe that is the case.

    In any event, I am not collecting the data/reports, Guy Smith is and he enjoys an excellant reputation for shifting the wheat from the chaff as I believe also do the 2 previous Examiners linked.

    BATF abuses and mid-stream policy changes are nothing new IMHO.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    I am hardly buying into a conspiracy theory by submitting a question as posed.

    If asking one FFL is all it takes to get a panoramic overview, that would be wonderful. I don't believe that is the case.

    In any event, I am not collecting the data/reports, Guy Smith is and he enjoys an excellant reputation for shifting the wheat from the chaff as I believe also do the 2 previous Examiners linked.

    BATF abuses and mid-stream policy changes are nothing new IMHO.
    There is a huge difference between "abuses and mid-stream policy changes" and implementing a national gun registry.

    Back it up or it isn't happening.

    Oh, and care to address the side issue that you caused to arise?

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    LOL, I can't help but find humor in a wannabe mod attempting to spank the real mod...

    This should be good!
    No it's actually distracting from the issue of determining whether this is happening at isolated points (tip of the iceberg?) or a false flag.

    Rather than have to go back and clean up/edit this thread, I would prefer to simply let the water seek its own level. I do NOT expect any FFL to report here publicly of such problems - that would likely put them under the BATF microscope. Instead I would anticipate that they would contact Guy Smith direct as requested.

    I have no reason to suspect Mr. Smith's motives. He has proven to be an excellent collector and documenter of facts. Most people here are familiar with his publication Gun Facts which is available on-line free:
    http://www.gunfacts.info/

    There are some other related issues which likely will be reported/discussed in another thread soon.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Gun dealers 'lost' nearly 11,000 firearms in 2012, ATF says. Number is only a partial

    "Gun dealers across the country reported losing nearly 11,000 firearms in 2012 and had 5,700 more guns stolen from their stores, according to a new federal report from the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. The numbers are in a new ATF report on lost and stolen firearms reported throughout the U.S. last year. The report was ordered by President Barack Obama, one of 23 executive actions announced in January intended to reduce gun violence after the shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School." http://www.jsonline.com/news/usandwo...212052801.html

    https://www.atf.gov/sites/default/fi...and-stolen.pdf
    Last edited by Nightmare; 06-19-2013 at 08:13 AM.
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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    ONLY, if you saw it. You cannot speak for those you don't know or haven't encountered.
    I work at a gun store located at a wide spot in the road in Georgia. While our security for 4473's is not as extensive as the exchange's where Eye works (we have a closed door, cardboard boxes and a key hanging on the nearby wall), I can attest that the ATF has not made any visits to scan our records in massive quantities either.
    In the last 5 years, there has been one single call from the ATF with a request for who a firearm was transferred to.

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    Re: Is BATF already creating a gun registry?

    A small side-note:

    During the NV Senate Juduciary hearings for SB221, a gentlman stood up in opposition to the bill on the grounds that every part of the firearms portion was for nothing more than to make an official registry.

    He related a story of a friend of his who is an FFL in Reno (did not give a name) who had an inspection visit from the ATF. Allegedly they just wanted to make sure what he had in his 4473's matched what they had on their laptop.

    His claim was that the FBI was transmitting the Proceed data to the ATF prior to the time they are supposed to delete it.

    He specifically asked a vetted retired ATF agent who was testifying as an Expert on this bill about this. The agent stuttered a bit and wouldn't confirm or outright deny this was happening.

    At this time is when the Chairman got things back on topic.

    (ETA: I know the cite rule. I do not know how to record the video archive off of the Legislature's site, and edit it. Video in that respect has never been my friend.)

    Speaking of topic, sorry for the derail.
    Last edited by b0neZ; 06-19-2013 at 11:06 AM.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Okay, now.... what information can the FBI transmit to the ATF to be stored on the laptop?

    Mr. John Q. Public,
    born 01-01-1955,
    who is 5'8" tall,
    weighs 160lbs,
    born in Pennsylvania,
    who is Not Hispanic or Latino,
    who is a Hawaiian or Pacific Islander,
    with or without a SSN,
    .....has applied to purchase a hand gun/long gun/other on such and such date.


    They don't know his address
    They don't know his driver's license number (de facto National ID Number)
    The don't know the serial number
    They don't know the manufacturer
    They don't know the make
    ... they don't even know if the firearm was actually purchased as the purchaser could still change his mind of find he lacks funds to complete the transfer.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 06-19-2013 at 03:11 PM.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Okay, now.... what information can the FBI transmit to the ATF to be stored on the laptop?

    Mr. John Q. Public,
    born 01-01-1955,
    who is 5'8" tall,
    weighs 160lbs,
    born in Pennsylvania,
    who is Not Hispanic or Latino,
    who is a Hawaiian or Pacific Islander,
    with or without a SSN,
    .....has applied to purchase a hand gun/long gun/other on such and such date.


    They don't know his address
    They don't know his driver's license number (de facto National ID Number)
    The don't know the serial number
    They don't know the manufacturer
    They don't know the make
    ... they don't even know if the firearm was actually purchased as the purchaser could still change his mind of find he lacks funds to complete the transfer.
    Unless the gun owner has helped them with a privilege card where they do have his address, drivers license, that is all they need to confiscate guns, just knowing John's address and that he possibly owns firearms. Why else would he have a permission card? And some states require the above information just to own a gun. Does anyone think they don't communicate with the feds?
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    I am sure they have been doing that for many years now. There were some Americans that honestly believed the NSA and other agency's would never do any illegal massive data collection of everyone in the USA. If people think the NSA and other "special agency's to include the FBI" are/were only illegally collecting voice-mails , emails, all social media content, recoding actual phone calls, recording credit cards purchases, keeping complete timelines of every single American in a data system that they can call up any time they. Microsoft has been giving backdoor access to the NSA to their OS on all American's whos PC is windows since the 90's.

    All of this has been going on since 1997, and people are naive enough to believe they are not tracking firearms purchase for a unofficial registry because they don't want to break the law are fooling themselves. What I have listed is just the tip of the Iceberg of that massive data collecting they have been doing for years now, all of which has been confirmed with the recent leaks and I hope the man leaks more to prove how corrupt " your trusted" government is. Also this is the second NSA whistle blower who got into great detail of what the NSA was doing. I posted this video before from the NYtimes who interviewed a 32 year NSA veteran who helped develope the very same massive data collection system that thy got caught using illegally. People blew the video off when i poste it. I swear people on here can be in the Oval Office and the President himself could point to your name on their gun owners list, they would still denie it exists.

    http://youtu.be/r9-3K3rkPRE
    Last edited by zack991; 06-19-2013 at 07:01 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Okay, now.... what information can the FBI transmit to the ATF to be stored on the laptop?

    Mr. John Q. Public,
    born 01-01-1955,
    who is 5'8" tall,
    weighs 160lbs,
    born in Pennsylvania,
    who is Not Hispanic or Latino,
    who is a Hawaiian or Pacific Islander,
    with or without a SSN,
    .....has applied to purchase a hand gun/long gun/other on such and such date.


    They don't know his address
    They don't know his driver's license number (de facto National ID Number)
    The don't know the serial number
    They don't know the manufacturer
    They don't know the make
    ... they don't even know if the firearm was actually purchased as the purchaser could still change his mind of find he lacks funds to complete the transfer.
    No matter how many times I have explained this on OCDO, we still have folks here who think that the government gets the firearm information. Maybe your example will drive the point home. Thank you.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    No matter how many times I have explained this on OCDO, we still have folks here who think that the government gets the firearm information. Maybe your example will drive the point home. Thank you.
    Maybe if you stomp your feet some more and threaten to lock the thread. Ohhhh wait you can't do that, you are not a moderator...
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    The simple fact of the matter remains that, apart from some States collecting your firearm purchase information (your problem if you live in one of them, not mine; fix yer own damn State), the 4473 and NICS processes do not send enough information to the government to create a registry of firearms. (See the post by Fallschirmjäger above.)
    They don't need a registry of firearms, just a registry of firearm owners, and matching credit card receipts to 4473 and NICS pretty much closes the deal. Besides the information they can collect by monitoring online inventory, online conversation, google search, and so on, which we know they are doing.

    I can't believe statists are so easily led over the cliff...
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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    [Raises hand hesitantly] Mr. Walking Wolf, just where are they getting these credit card receipts from?

    I know for a fact that our receipts aren't transmitted to the government directly. Is it the bank, do they go over the hundreds of receipts they get by hand to find the one that says "Colt SAA SN:1235656" or "Calico LWS SN: 12-3456"? Do you believe each bank has a list of the scores of manufacturer's around the world that export to the USA?

    Is it the credit card companies themselves? Do they have some automated reader that inspects each reported purchase and correlates the name of the item with the known list of gun manufacturers worldwide?

    Please tell us how this works, I've been curious my entire life.


    Oh, and just how does this work for those that pay cash in order to receive the 3% discount? How do they get away with That?

    p.s. Speaking of online inventory, our distributor has had a balance of "0" for just about every rifle, pistol, and shotgun since December, it hardly even pays to check. Yet we still receive shipments of firearms of them. Gonna be hard to 'match up' stuff when the quantity-on-hand is zero, don'cha think?
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 06-19-2013 at 07:34 PM.

  23. #23
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    [Raises hand hesitantly] Mr. Walking Wolf, just where are they getting these credit card receipts from?

    I know for a fact that our receipts aren't transmitted to the government directly. Is it the bank, do they go over the hundreds of receipts they get by hand to find the one that says "Colt SAA SN:1235656" or "Calico LWS SN: 12-3456"? Do you believe each bank has a list of the scores of manufacturer's around the world that export to the USA?

    Is it the credit card companies themselves? Do they have some automated reader that inspects each reported purchase and correlates the name of the item with the known list of gun manufacturers worldwide?

    Please tell us how this works, I've been curious my entire life.


    Oh, and just how does this work for those that pay cash in order to receive the 3% discount? How do they get away with That?

    p.s. Speaking of online inventory, our distributor has had a balance of "0" for just about every rifle, pistol, and shotgun since December, it hardly even pays to check. Yet we still receive shipments of firearms of them. Gonna be hard to 'match up' stuff when the quantity-on-hand is zero, don'cha think?
    All credit card transactions in this present day either go over the internet or the phone. And they do not need to know what guns you have just that you have guns. But please go on believing that the present scandals are make believe.
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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    All credit card transactions in this present day either go over the internet or the phone. And they do not need to know what guns you have just that you have guns. But please go on believing that the present scandals are make believe.
    Yes, they do. But that still does not answer the question.
    Are you saying that A) the credit card companies are Reporting these transactions, or B) the the government is intercepting these communications?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Yes, they do. But that still does not answer the question.
    Are you saying that A) the credit card companies are Reporting these transactions, or B) the the government is intercepting these communications?
    Ask you shall receive.
    http://www.politico.com/story/2013/0...ons-92390.html

    Credit card transactions are among the activities that have been monitored by the National Security Agency as part of its effort to target possible terrorists, the Wall Street Journal reported Thursday night.

    The report does not identify the credit card companies involved and says it is unclear if the monitoring of transactions is ongoing.

    The news about the credit card transactions follows reports from earlier in the day that the NSA has had access to the internet servers of large technology companies, giving the agency the ability, through a program nicknamed PRISM, to track e-mails and web searches.



    http://theweek.com/article/index/245...m-50-companies
    Analysts at the National Security Agency can now secretly access real-time user data provided by as many as 50 American companies, ranging from credit rating agencies to internet service providers, two government officials familiar with the arrangements said.
    Several of the companies have provided records continuously since 2006, while others have given the agency sporadic access, these officials said. These officials disclosed the number of participating companies in order to provide context for a series of disclosures about the NSA's domestic collection policies. The officials, contacted independently, repeatedly said that "domestic collection" does not mean that the target is based in the U.S. or is a U.S. citizen; rather, it refers only to the origin of the data.

    The Wall Street Journal reported today that U.S. credit card companies had also provided customer information. The officials would not disclose the names of the companies because, they said, doing so would provide U.S. enemies with a list of companies to avoid. They declined to confirm the list of participants in an internet monitoring program revealed by the Washington Post and the Guardian, but both confirmed that the program existed.


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