Is BATF already creating a gun registry?

Whether or not the ATF is using 4473s and/or credit cards to create a national gun registry is not a matter of nuance or opinion. It is either factually true or factually false. If one is going to assert that the statement is true, he need not prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt, but still (if being intellectually competent and honest) provide support for the positive assertion.

I will simply keep asking for support for that contention and pointing out that it is not forthcoming as long as folks keep pushing the assertion and not supporting it.

OCDO has always been about citing support for contentions. No one can (or is even trying to) force you or anyone else to provide support. However, failure to provide support cuts into your credibility with rational folks and should be pointed out.


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<o>

It's fun to watch people make demands with no authority to back them up...

eye95 said:

Whether or not the ATF is using 4473s and/or credit cards to create a national gun registry is not a matter of nuance or opinion. It is either factually true or factually false. If one is going to assert that the statement is true, he need not prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt, but still (if being intellectually competent and honest) provide support for the positive assertion.

I will simply keep asking for support for that contention and pointing out that it is not forthcoming as long as folks keep pushing the assertion and not supporting it.

OCDO has always been about citing support for contentions. No one can (or is even trying to) force you or anyone else to provide support. However, failure to provide support cuts into your credibility with rational folks and should be pointed out.


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<o>

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With all of the LIES the federal government has told over the years, do you really need PROOF that something they DENY is actually occurring?

If they DENY it, then it is probably happening!

Only a moron would continue to believe the federal government is for the People, and NO I'm not saying that is you. I'm just saying anyone that needs PROOF when it concerns OUR federal government is ALWAYS going to believe them over the People, because you rarely get PROOF when the federal government is involved. What you do get is a few good men or women who upheld their oath and stood with the People and decided to blow the whistle on what was truly happening. When they do this and risk everything they have ever worked for the government calls them a liar and humiliates them in front of the nation, and the PROOF is never found because once this happens and someone comes out with it, the government will threaten anyone and everyone that MAY have the PROOF and they will keep their mouth shut.

KYGlockster said:

Did anyone have PROOF that Hitler would kill thousands of Jews?
....

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I think its safe to declare the argument over, its reached the Godwin limit.

eye95 said:

Not saying it is OK that they are "monitoring credit card transactions," it isn't. However, what does that mean???
--snip--
So, what does it mean? Put up or shut up. Otherwise, this is just another bit of fuzzy paranoia also known as a conspiracy theory.

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eye95 said:

A: [a contention]
B: Prove it.
--snip--
Anyone got any proof of a national gun registry?

No? I didn't think so.

On edit: Please note that I am not contending that they are not. Others are contending that they are, and I am asking for proof. None is forthcoming, but because I am not proving the opposite contention (which I am not making), somehow that is being presented as support for their contention.

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eye95 said:

Whether or not the ATF is using 4473s and/or credit cards to create a national gun registry is not a matter of nuance or opinion. It is either factually true or factually false. If one is going to assert that the statement is true, he need not prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt, but still (if being intellectually competent and honest) provide support for the positive assertion.

I will simply keep asking for support for that contention and pointing out that it is not forthcoming as long as folks keep pushing the assertion and not supporting it.

OCDO has always been about citing support for contentions. No one can (or is even trying to) force you or anyone else to provide support. However, failure to provide support cuts into your credibility with rational folks and should be pointed out.

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You are either missing the point or are deliberately changing the focus of this thread regarding conduct by the BATF that may have been observed by FFLs - NO CONTENTION WAS MADE that such was a forgone fact. The OP (me) asked for any reports of particular conduct that may have been observed.

That others may observe that they think the markers are there for over reaching by the government is not the point, but they are entitled to express that opinion as also are you.

However, you have in the past used the tactic of repeatedly (over & over) making demands and being somewhat abrasive in voicing your opinion on a matter. Such can effectively derail a thread and cause it to be something neither intended nor desirable. That is now happening here IMO.

You have suggested that when I am involved in a thread, I should recluse myself from any moderation thereof. Not only would Mike and John not acquiesce to that notion for threads on which they have posted or not, but neither shall I. I find that suggestion patently absurd.

My obligation, which I take most seriously, is to OCDO and directed by the site owners - I am not unduly influenced by what others may think. As John has said, "We prefer to moderate with a light hand." I will add, but there comes a time - this is one of those times. You need to let others have a voice w/o hammering on them for it........please, sir.

Grapeshot said:

...Congress tells us and them there is NO national registry and them BATF quietly goes about creating one....at least so it would seem.

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zack991 said:

...All of this has been going on since 1997, and people are naive enough to believe they are not tracking firearms purchase for a unofficial registry because they don't want to break the law are fooling themselves...

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WalkingWolf said:

They don't need a registry of firearms, just a registry of firearm owners, and matching credit card receipts to 4473 and NICS pretty much closes the deal. Besides the information they can collect by monitoring online inventory, online conversation, google search, and so on, which we know they are doing...

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rushcreek2 said:

No citation is needed to support the obvious conclusion that all agencies under the U.S. DOJ given it's current administration by AG Eric Holder will leave no stone undisturbed in its quest to harvest, synthesize , and correlate ANY available data in order to produce an intelligence product which can be utilized to deny the RTKBA to as many U.S. citizens as possible.

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Grapeshot said:

You are either missing the point or are deliberately changing the focus of this thread regarding conduct by the BATF that may have been observed by FFLs - NO CONTENTION WAS MADE that such was a forgone fact...

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The quotes above this one, including a quote of your first post, make it clear that some are contending that a gun registry is being built.

You sir, are the only one wielding a hammer--and doing so for your own personal benefit. YOU need to stop. Please sir.

Originally Posted by Grapeshot
...Congress tells us and them there is NO national registry and them BATF quietly goes about creating one....at least so it would seem.

Click to expand...

Originally Posted by zack991
...All of this has been going on since 1997, and people are naive enough to believe they are not tracking firearms purchase for a unofficial registry because they don't want to break the law are fooling themselves...

Click to expand...

Originally Posted by WalkingWolf
They don't need a registry of firearms, just a registry of firearm owners, and matching credit card receipts to 4473 and NICS pretty much closes the deal. Besides the information they can collect by monitoring online inventory, online conversation, google search, and so on, which we know they are doing...

Click to expand...

Originally Posted by rushcreek2
No citation is needed to support the obvious conclusion that all agencies under the U.S. DOJ given it's current administration by AG Eric Holder will leave no stone undisturbed in its quest to harvest, synthesize , and correlate ANY available data in order to produce an intelligence product which can be utilized to deny the RTKBA to as many U.S. citizens as possible.

Click to expand...

Originally Posted by Grapeshot
You are either missing the point or are deliberately changing the focus of this thread regarding conduct by the BATF that may have been observed by FFLs - NO CONTENTION WAS MADE that such was a forgone fact...

Click to expand...

eye95 said:

The quotes above this one, including a quote of your first post, make it clear that some are contending that a gun registry is being built.

You sir, are the only one wielding a hammer--and doing so for your own personal benefit. YOU need to stop. Please sir.

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I have no reading comprehension problem. I clearly stated "so it would seem" relative to the quest for information. That is hardly a definitive conclusion that the BATF is conducting intell/data gathering; however, they may be contributing - the jury is still out on that.

The rest of the quotes you have included are by and large generalities - not specific to BATF. The are conversational and show that the people do not trust the government when it is said that no data is being collected for such purpose.

Yet you persist to demand that proof be given that BATF is doing this. That is what the question/information is intended to show IF it develops that way. You are not in a position to make demands or to tell anyone to "put up or shut up." You have called others "lazy or dishonest" - all insulting.

Then you insult me publicly as "ham handed", (one who) "will not hesitate to use mod powers for personal gain", and "abuse of authority". IMO your conduct is without redeeming value - I'm sorry to say it shows a lack of civility and crosses the line. Insulting other forum members is still a violation of the rules.

There will be no further conversation from me on the matter. I will go another route.

Coming to your state soon.

http://youtu.be/DwRvDXq8ft8

Well, back to the OP. It was asked if ANYONE has SEEN the happening of copying 4473's. It has been discussed, and evidently, no one on this board has seen it. Doesn't mean it isn't happening. Doesn't mean they don't at all. The few FFLs that have answered up haven't seen it in their particular "storefront".
Face it folks, if it's on the interwebs, it definitely ain't private. You ain't off the grid and hiding if you have accounts on the web...Or there are receipts...

Thread locked pending clean-up.

Meanwhile, please read the OP and respond as directed in confidence if you have any information.