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Thread: Police officer tactics/OC'er counter tactics during "interactions".

  1. #1
    Regular Member Superlite27's Avatar
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    Police officer tactics/OC'er counter tactics during "interactions".

    In another thread, http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...24#post1951824 a video shows an OC'er stopped by officers. The OC'er asks numerous questions such as "Am I being detained?" or "Am I doing anything illegal?", and in every instance, the responding officers reply by completely ignoring the questions, or by inserting non-sequiturs such as, "We just recieved a call...." etc. that have absolutley nothing to do with the question being asked.

    I've noticed this enough for it to become an obvious tactic employed by officers during interactions. As with any "tactic" in any situation, overuse becomes predictable, therefore, ineffective over time.

    What are some good "tactics" to employ during encounters, and what things should we, as OC'ers, be aware of during officer interactions?


    I always try to use questions requiring explanatory answers instead of "yes" or "no". "Yes" and "no" are answers easily avoided. One simply ignores the question. (It's easy to conclude that the question requires an affirmation or denial without much thought, and bypassing it by discarding the entire question is easy, and the transition is seamless: One simply inserts a non-sequitur, and moves on.)

    Asking, "Why am I being detained?" or other questions requiring more than affirm/deny analysis requires the mind to actually form an answer before making a say it/discard it decision. This takes much more time, and a seamless transition in conversation is nearly impossible.Since the insertion of a non-sequitur would be entirely too obvious, it isn't as easy to pass right on over it as if the question didn't exist.

    Q: "What probable cause do you have to detain me?"

    A: "......Hmmmm. Wow. This makes me have to think of an appropriate lie instead of lying by omission in discarding a yes/no answer entirely. Good question. I wish I could ignore it without being so obvious."

    I'd also try inserting a "Why are you completely ignoring my valid questions?" or "Why are you not answering?" after a non-sequitur. ("Questions beginning with "Why" seem to be a good thing as "Why" doesn't seem to be easily answered with a "yes" or "no".)

    Anyone know of any good "tactics" to employ against the "officer non-sequitur"? Right now, I'm stuck with asking hard to ignore questions and calling obvious attention to avoidance. Noticing how often these "ignore the question" tactics are employed by officers in interactions where they wish to avoid accountability, I think a discussion of "counter-tactics" helps the entire OC community by helping raise awareness of all OC'ers to situations where officer culpability is in question and attempts are being made by the officer to avoid acknowledgement of it.

    Just be aware of falling prey to several subliminal "tactics" used by officers during interaction with the public:

    1) Siezing control of the conversation by "dominance" or "wielding authority". (If one acts "in charge", the majority of times, bystanders will subconciously "submit" as someone has already assumed the role of "leader".) This is half the battle. When an OC'er is knowledgeable about the law, or "takes charge" of his own destiny by refusing to relinquish complete control of the situation to the officer, many confilicts resulting from this are simply the officer trying to re-establish dominance of the conversation in order to assert authority. Asking questions the officer is uncomfortable with also provides an unwanted opportunity for the officer to appear lacking in control, therefore, lacking in authority.

    2) Avoiding questions establishing officer culpability.

    Anyone have more things to be aware of in officer encounters? The more we openly discuss these things, the better prepared we all will be in potential future encounters as our awareness of things detrimental to our rights and freedom will be more noticeable, and therefore better prepared for.
    Last edited by Superlite27; 06-21-2013 at 11:47 AM.

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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    LEOs have far more practice doing this 'Q and (non)A' than any of us. They know how to deflect a question with a question or a non-sequitur. I agree asking 'why am I...' is probably the preferred OCDO method. But you know they don't have to tell you anything not even what the RAS is. They can say 'your car matched...a bolo'. Also, you run the risk of being accused of trying to "legalese" the officer. I'm pretty sure cops hate lawyers and pseudo-lawyers (or LACs who know the law) more.

    Good post, though.

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    Regular Member Superlite27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    LEOs have far more practice doing this 'Q and (non)A' than any of us. They know how to deflect a question with a question or a non-sequitur.
    Knowing this, wouldn't discussions exploring this topic provide those encountering officers with "far more practice" a valuable resource in countering it?

    After all, if your adversary has "far more practice" at something concerning your rights and freedom, wouldn't it be prudent to practice more often, yourself?

    I know, if I was in a competition such as a sporting event, game, or other contest, and I knew my opponent had "far more practice" than I, a solution to this problem would be to increase the quality or quantity of my own practice.

    Isn't this also a valid idea when the "contest" is one concerning your rights and freedom?
    Last edited by Superlite27; 06-21-2013 at 12:00 PM.

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    I suggested role-playing exercises in a high school as a means of training soon to be graduates to their rights; to a resounding guffaw. My PD was agreeable, but the school board/administration was not.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Well,,,

    Most here miss the point!
    Never talk to the police!!!
    You didnt ask to be stopped.

    You should not ask,, why do I have to be here with you cops?
    You should not ask,, is it OK with you for me to leave now?

    Listen to the confrontation again,,, after trying to get the cops to answer his questions, he talked too much, of coarse they didnt answer,
    He finally says,,, I do NOT consent to this conversation/confrontation,,,
    Then it was over!!!
    He just walks away.

    This is your Only way to take controll of a run in with the cops!
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    IMHO any conversation with the police that has not already resulted in your being placed under arrest (verbally informed or cuffed) should consist of one and only one question:

    Q #1 - Am I free to go?

    Until you get a YES/NO response to that question, there should be no other conversation from your side. Ignore everything they say except the answer to "Am I free to go?"

    If answer to Q #1 = YES, then go. Say nothing. Go.

    If answer to Q #1 = NO, state clearly that you want to speak with your attorney before you answer any questions. And then say nothing until you have consulted with and been advised by your attorney.

    You will get cuffed. You will get stuffed into a squad car and driven to the police station. You will be asked to provide information such as your name, your address, your date of birth, and your social security number (even though it says right on the card the number is not to be used for identification purposes). You probably will be asked a lot of other questions - possibly by multiple LEOs all asking their questions at the same time. They will either make you empty your pockets or empty them for you. Cooperating by emptying your pockets yourself may prevent damage to your clothing.

    Say nothing until you have consulted with and been advised by your attorney. Your life is in the pits already. How much worse can they really make it? So shut up and say nothing until you have consulted with and been advised by your attorney. Do not respond to questions about why you want to consult with and be advised by your attorney - not even by saying something along the lines of "It's my right and I want to exercise my right." You have said yu are not going to talk with them until you consult with and are advised by your attorney. Show them that you mean it.

    Your attorney will probably tell you that if the reason for arresting you is bogus you will make him (your attorrney) wealthier by suing all the cops involved - unless you have said something to the cops which gave them a valid reason to arrest you.

    Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. Recently SCOTUS has said that anything you do jot say can be used against you - unless you have asked to consult with and be advided by your attorney before saying anything.

    Don't say anything until you consult with and are advised by your attorney. You are going to be paying him anyway. Might as well get the best value for yur money.

    stay safe.
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    The OC handled the situation well, I would give him an 8 rating. Some videos we see are handled much better then others. It is easy to be a Monday morning quarterback. What we need to do is learn a technique from each video that we see.

    I think the OC probably said to much however you need to articulate and invoke your rights to these tyrants that do not know the law. Simply dismissing them and walking away could led to a problem. Having the encounter recorded is your ace in the hole.

    I thought the OC responded well when the idiot said" Your walking down MY STREET carrying a weapon.

    OC replied, this street is not yours it belongs to the people that you were hired to serve.

    TIA

    CCJ
    Last edited by countryclubjoe; 06-21-2013 at 05:08 PM.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    If a police officer does not answer "Am I free to go?" and has not articulated a reasonable suspicion of a crime I will walk away. The ball is in his court then, he either makes a arrest, gives a reason for the stop, or stands there like a dufus. If it is on recording that he/she did not answer your questions as to why or what his intentions are he has no grounds to stand on in court. If it is a traffic stop though, you are detained, you don't need to ask. If the officer stands there like a dufus, then call 911 and ask the operator to determine why you are being stopped.

    The idea that we have to stand around while the officer says nothing for his reasons is absurd.
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    If you are not being detain why would one hang around and argue.

    Staying and talking could very well lead to more trouble.
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  10. #10
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    If you are not being detain why would one hang around and argue.

    Staying and talking could very well lead to more trouble.
    Agreed!
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    Wolf and Instructor,

    Thank you your reply's. Question for you both if I may ask. How would you have handled this encounter?

    I feel we need to learn from each other in regards to encounters with LEO when open carrying.

    Thank you both for your time.

    Best regards.

    CCJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlite27 View Post
    SNIP The OC'er asks numerous questions such as "Am I being detained?" or "Am I doing anything illegal?", and in every instance, the responding officers reply by completely ignoring the questions, or by inserting non-sequiturs such as, "We just recieved a call...." etc. that have absolutley nothing to do with the question being asked.

    I've noticed this enough for it to become an obvious tactic employed by officers during interactions. As with any "tactic" in any situation, overuse becomes predictable, therefore, ineffective over time.

    What are some good "tactics" to employ during encounters, and what things should we, as OC'ers, be aware of during officer interactions?

    By not answering the question as to whether you are detained, the cop is taking advantage of your uncertainty. They bloody well know lots of people aren't going to just walk off, especially if the cop is acting official. He's leaving it foggy on purpose so he can later claim it was a consensual encounter.

    So, take the uncertainty out of it.

    Just up and declare from the outset that you do not consent to an encounter with him. After that, it can't possibly be a consensual encounter. You've suddenly passed the ball back to him and now he has to play it. His options are to either continue the encounter--for which he needs RAS, or arrest you under probable cause.

    "Officer. No offense. I know you're just doing your job. But, I do not consent to an encounter with you."

    Courts have written reams and reams and reams of opinions on whether this or that search or encounter was consensual. They've been hanging this giant clue in front of everybody's noses for years. Take advantage of it. Just declare that you don't consent to an encounter with the cop.

    If he asks even one more question, just assume you are detained. Unless he expressly says you are free to go, assume you are detained. Nothing more needs to be said. It can't possibly be a consensual encounter from that instant forward. When he asks the next question, just adopt the assumption that you are detained, and operate from that standpoint. There's no reason at all to wait around for a standpoint from somebody who isn't going to give it to you. Just adopt the assumption you're detained and ask, "Why am I being detained?"

    The point here is to take 4A case law and use it to your advantage. By declaring your refused consent, you force the cop to have RAS if he wants to continue even one second more.

    If you get to "why am I being detained?", and he dodges the question, just proceed from the idea you are seized and politely reinforce your refused consent. For example, "Officer, I wish to be released from this detention right this very instant."

    When the cop says, "Nobody said you were detained," don't argue with him whether the indicators are present, just repeat your refused consent. "I don't consent to an encounter and wish to be released right now."

    Of course, you want to also invoke your 5A rights to not answer questions without an attorney, too.
    Last edited by Citizen; 06-21-2013 at 06:08 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post

    If you get to "why am I being detained?", and he dodges the question, just proceed from the idea you are seized and politely reinforce your refused consent. For example, "Officer, I wish to be released from this detention right this very instant."

    When the cop says, "Nobody said you were detained," don't argue with him whether the indicators are present, just repeat your refused consent. "I don't consent to an encounter and wish to be released right now."

    Of course, you want to also invoke your 5A rights to not answer questions without an attorney, too.
    If the cop says "Nobody said you were detained", I'm leaving. He's gonna have to command me to stop.
    Last edited by georg jetson; 06-21-2013 at 06:36 PM.

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    Police officer tactics/OC'er counter tactics during "interactions".

    I am going to start to walk off.

    If an officer stops me, I will ask, "Am I free to go?" If he says yes, I go. If he says no, I will comply with any request for name, date of birth, or address. I will state my lack of consent to any searches or seizures, but will also state that I will not resist. If the officer refuses to answer my question, I will slowly start to leave. If he stops me by word or deed, I will assume that he answered no.

    All of this will be recorded. If an inaudible action is taken, I will verbalize it: "Officer, you are hurting my arm by grabbing it. If you are detaining me, just say so, and I will stay," or "Officer, if you are going to take my gun, I do not consent, but I ask, for safety, that you take the gun in its holster," and the like.

    We will be doing a post-mortem after the fact with department leadership and the city attorney.

    I haven't been cuffed and stuffed yet, despite three encounters with the police. And, most importantly, the post mortems resulted in Montgomery, AL officially recognizing that OC is lawful and not RAS for a stop.


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    Quote Originally Posted by countryclubjoe View Post
    Wolf and Instructor,

    Thank you your reply's. Question for you both if I may ask. How would you have handled this encounter?

    I feel we need to learn from each other in regards to encounters with LEO when open carrying.

    Thank you both for your time.

    Best regards.

    CCJ
    Personally with me we most likely end up talking about the job normally working cops and old retired cops get along fairly well.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by georg jetson View Post
    If the cop says "Nobody said you were detained", I'm leaving. He's gonna have to command me to stop.
    This^
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    Personally with me we most likely end up talking about the job normally working cops and old retired cops get along fairly well.
    I just have not had the problem, maybe it is my attitude. I woke up years ago with my driveway blocked by every conceivable agency in the state and Homeland security. I asked them what their problem was and a SBI agent started getting snarky it was none of my business. The giggling deputy(he knows me) looked on as I told him/SBI to get the hell off my property. He started to say he wanted to ask me questions, and I told him I did not want to talk to him without my lawyer. Conversation over, and they moved their vehicles.

    It does not take identifying yourself as a officer to get them to back off if you have done nothing wrong. Just takes some confidence, and balls, a little knowledge helps. Of course if you have done something wrong, none of that will matter. If they know they will hang on like a bull dog.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 06-21-2013 at 07:39 PM.
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    Ok, everyone says to just walk away, but what if I don't want to leave. Hear me out, say I am standing in a park admiring a lake and a LEO comes up to me and starts an interacion. Once I have gotten the LEO to admit that I am not being detained, why should I have to leave. What if I still wish to admire the lake , from the same spot as before the interaction was initiated. How can one make a LEO stop trying to interact with you? What if the LEO initiates an interaction while I and my family are having a picnic or sitting on a bench enjoying an ice cream cone.

    Does case law state that I must actually leave a vicinity to not be a consenting party to the interaction?
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    Quote Originally Posted by georg jetson View Post
    If the cop says "Nobody said you were detained", I'm leaving. He's gonna have to command me to stop.
    I don't know if that's a good idea.

    We've already got at least one report of an OCer being told he was not detained, but the instant he started to leave, the cop actually grabbed him. Its not what the cop says that counts--its what he wants. If he's playing word-games with you, it means he wants you to stay. And, if he wants you to stay bad enough, you may get physically seized.

    These aren't "good cops" we're worrying about.

    For myself, I don't much care for the idea of being proned out and forcefully disarmed. I've seen too many videos of take-downs. Knee in the back, forearm grinding your face into the pavement. No thanks. Some of these characters are on a power-trip and the last thing I want is to give them an excuse. And, don't overlook that a bad cop may actually be setting you up for it. A former cop-turned-attorney explains that some cops will get in your face and scream and blast you with spittle flecks and halitosis in an effort to get you to push them away, for which you will be arrested for assaulting the cop. Its a deliberate baiting. I can easily believe there are some cops who will bait you into leaving just so they can go "hands-on".
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Police officer tactics/OC'er counter tactics during "interactions".

    If the cop says you are not detained, you try to leave, and he grabs you, then you weren't detained until he grabbed you then you were. Since the grabbing won't be on the tape, be sure to say, "OW! Why did you grab my arm?" You are detained, and it is on the record that you are.


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    eye95

    I like the vocal part in the recording ( if I am not free to go then why are you grabbing my arm ) and will try hard if ever detained to remember but why give them name and address if you know you have gave no RAS?
    Last edited by Troy bilt; 06-21-2013 at 10:34 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Troy bilt View Post
    eye95

    I like the vocal part in the recording ( if I am not free to go then why are you grabbing my arm ) and will try hard if ever detained to remember but why give them name and address if you know you have gave no RAS?

    Because you have almost know way to know for sure whether they really do have genuine RAS.

    See the OP here: http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...e-Cop-has-RAS&
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  23. #23
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    Not every cop is a bad cop, and if you as a citizen do not know your rights, and exert them that is not their fault. Of course cops use complacency to their advantage. You would, and I would, car salesmen do it all the time. Just like buying a gun. If you don't do your research and get legally screwed it is your fault. Back when Jimmy Carter was president I stood up to the FBI several times, and they WERE out to get us. If you have done nothing wrong and take the proper steps to protect yourself and know your rights it is highly unlikely the officer will grab your arm when you walk away.

    Hell twice I bitch slapped cops, once as a police officer, and the other time as a dock master for a marina. The first incident the officer started crying, he never pushed past that. He was playing with his gun and pointed it at me, thought it was funny. The second time cost the sergeant his strips, as he pulled a gun on me trying to take a boat from the yard without paying the marina. He was taken away by his own peers in cuffs, he was lucky I backed off criminal charges at the request of the sheriff.
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    I noticed a huge different in how LEOs act to people with firearms between rural LEOs and urban LEOs.

    Rural LEOs run into people with firearms all the time and most of the time when they do the people have a legitimate reason for being arm. Self defense, hunting, training or just because they can I have had lot of pleasant conversations with fellow gun owners about guns, hunting over the years as an LEOs.

    Matter of fact I meet one of my best shooting buddies on a shooting complaint his neighbor was complaining about the shooting he was doing and thought it was unsafe.

    I stopped in at his cabin and there was a lot of shooting going on (3 or 4 20 year olds with new ARs and lots of ammo).

    I told them why I was there and the neighbor's concerns. They showed me what way they were shooting and their back stop. I said you know if you just changed the angle a little bit it would be safer and less chance of any bullets going astray.

    I also told them of a couple of gavel pits close by that were open for shooting. The owner and now my friend said would you like to shoot a few rounds through my AR I said sure I shot a few rounds told them to be safe and we became good shooting buddies after that for the last 35 years.

    Where as urban LEOs hardly run into people with firearms unless they are used in a crime (but that is changing also).

    We are gaining ground in the education department with urban LEOs but it has been a slow process to defeat all the anti gun BS that's been feed to them over 50 some years by the anti gun people, media, law, schools.

    Some learn fairly easy some it takes a lot more pressure to make them see the light, law suits, legislation, court rulings all come into play into teaching them that all guns are not evil.

    It is been a up hill battle and we are still fighting it in a lot of the country losing some places winning in others.

    Hardly ever has the fight for any civil right been won over night most taking decades to win.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troy bilt View Post
    eye95

    I like the vocal part in the recording ( if I am not free to go then why are you grabbing my arm ) and will try hard if ever detained to remember but why give them name and address if you know you have gave no RAS?
    You can't possibly KNOW. And, if you are wrong, not giving them that information will be a crime.

    A person may have called stating that you were threatening people with the gun, or playing with it outside the holster, or the like. Even if those claims were lies, the officer has RAS. If you are detained, for the moment, assume it is lawful and do everything you'd have to do during a lawful detention, nothing more. Verbalize that you will not answer any questions, make any statements, or consent to any searches or seizures.

    You can deal with an unlawful detention later.

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