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Thread: I will be visiting Provo next week for a training class. I have both an Alabama and

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    I will be visiting Provo next week for a training class. I have both an Alabama and

    Florida concealed carry license. I will be carrying concealed. Are there any places that I should not carry other than churches, or the normal places such as court houses, or federal buildings?

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    Regular Member Gil223's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by acrimsontide View Post
    Florida concealed carry license. I will be carrying concealed. Are there any places that I should not carry other than churches, or the normal places such as court houses, or federal buildings?
    Not that I'm aware of - FL and UT have formal reciprocity on CFPs, so you're even okay to carry inside a school here. There may be a problem if your FL CFP is non-resident though - I'm not a lawyer, and it's nothing I have ever had reason to look into. Keep in mind however, that if you are confronted by the management or management representative of any establishment not signed as a GFZ, and asked to leave you must do so, or face the potential of trespassing charges. In reality though, there are very few places in my part of Northern Utah that openly restrict the carry of firearms. Pax...
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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    Well,,, and Wowwie!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gil223 View Post
    Not that I'm aware of - FL and UT have formal reciprocity on CFPs, so you're even okay to carry inside a school here. There may be a problem if your FL CFP is non-resident though - I'm not a lawyer, and it's nothing I have ever had reason to look into. Keep in mind however, that if you are confronted by the management or management representative of any establishment not signed as a GFZ, and asked to leave you must do so, or face the potential of trespassing charges. In reality though, there are very few places in my part of Northern Utah that openly restrict the carry of firearms. Pax...
    Whether his Florida is a res or a non res permit has little to do with carrying in a school.
    The Ferderal GFSZ law will keep him from getting to the school in the first place!

    Now I do say that, It would take a FEDERAL cop to impose the GFSZ law against him,
    It is still a NEVER enforced FEDERAL Law that he would need to break, to get to the school itself!
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

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    Regular Member Gil223's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    Whether his Florida is a res or a non res permit has little to do with carrying in a school.
    The Ferderal GFSZ law will keep him from getting to the school in the first place!

    Now I do say that, It would take a FEDERAL cop to impose the GFSZ law against him,
    It is still a NEVER enforced FEDERAL Law that he would need to break, to get to the school itself!
    Then the State of Utah is in violation... arrest the Governor and Legislature. It is ALLOWED BY UTAH STATUTE and this particular Fedlaw is NOT enforced in Utah. Perhaps someday I'll tell you about how things are done in Washington.
    Last edited by Gil223; 06-22-2013 at 03:44 AM. Reason: Typo
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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    Well,,,

    Quote Originally Posted by Gil223 View Post
    Then the State of Utah is in violation... arrest the Governor and Legislature. It is ALLOWED BY UTAH STATUTE and this particular Fedlaw is NOT enforced in Utah. Perhaps someday I'll tell you about how things are done in Washington.
    Hi Pax,,, thanx for reminding me of my place
    As I pointed out, it takes a Fed cop to enforce this Fed law and NO Fed cop in ANY state will try to do that!
    Your state of Utah is not special in that respect, nor are any of the other 57? states...
    The Fed does NOT want this Fed law to be tried in ANY court! Espessially in SCOTUS!!!

    If Utah is 1 of the states that respects the 2A right of LACs to carry in a school,
    then I have renewed and profound respect for you and yours...

    I hope we can converse some more in the future.
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

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    Thanks for all the replies. My home state, Alabama, also has reciprocity with Utah so I should be good to go. The school requirement for a resident permit won't be a problem since I won't have any activities on school grounds. I will be attending a Range Master instructor course at a training facility in Provo for the entire week so my activities will be pretty much limited to going out to dinner etc. Thanks again.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Schools themselves are covered by state law.

    The much-debated (mostly only on the Internet) federal law covers the zone 1000 feet around the school (elementary and secondary only) as off limits (for possession) to those without a license. While any sworn cop can enforce federal laws, it is a fact that this unconstitutional law is unenforced in free states like UT.

    To clarify the OP about churches, they are only off-limits if you have been notified. This includes the church posting such notice on the state's website, which only the Mormons have done as of the last time I checked.
    Last edited by MAC702; 06-22-2013 at 09:19 AM.
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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    Woww!!! Really???

    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    Schools themselves are covered by state law.

    The much-debated (mostly only on the Internet) federal law covers the zone 1000 feet around the school (elementary and secondary only) as off limits (for possession) to those without a license. I don't think that was differentiated clearly in this thread. While any sworn cop can enforce federal laws, it is a fact that this unconstitutional law is unenforced in free states like UT.

    To clarify the OP about churches, they are only off-limits if you have been notified. This includes the church posting such notice on the state's website, which only the Mormons have done as of the last time I checked.
    No swarn LOCAL COP can enforce FEDERAL Law,,, NOR would he ,, or his shop want to...
    Especially in A free state,,, or any free state,,, nor any state in the US of A,,, especially the State of UTAH!!!!!
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

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    Regular Member jpm84092's Avatar
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    I won't enter the frey - but Welcome To Utah

    I have no desire to enter the argument above, but I hope your stay in Provo is a good one and that you learn the skills you are coming here to learn.

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    "Permission Slips" from Utah, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Arizona, and Florida. _ Verily, thou shalt not fiddle with thine firearm whilst in the bathroom stall, lest thine spouse seek condolences from thine friends.

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Since nobody has yet brought the actual laws about school zones into the discussion...

    18USC922(q) is the federal "GF"SZ law.
    (2)(a) is the "you can't do that here" part, and (b) provides the exceptions.
    Interestingly, section (3) says that discharge of a firearm in a school zone is illegal, and does not provide an exception for self-defense.
    I've never heard of that federal law being enforced against anyone either, but it's one more thing that needs to be cleaned up.

    (2) (A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone*.

    (B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm
    (i) on private property not part of school grounds;

    (ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

    (iii) that is
    (I) not loaded; and
    (II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;

    (iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;

    (v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual;

    (vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity; or

    (vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by school authorities.


    (3) (A) Except as provided in subparagraph (B), it shall be unlawful for any person, knowingly or with reckless disregard for the safety of another, to discharge or attempt to discharge a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the person knows is a school zone.

    (B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the discharge of a firearm
    (i) on private property not part of school grounds;

    (ii) as part of a program approved by a school in the school zone, by an individual who is participating in the program;

    (iii) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in a school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual; or

    (iv) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity.

    * 18USC921(a)(25) & (26)
    (25) The term “school zone” means (A) in, or on the grounds of, a public, parochial or private school; or
    (B) within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of a public, parochial or private school.

    (26) The term “school” means a school which provides elementary or secondary education, as determined under State law.
    But UT law only prohibits the grounds & buildings - there is no magical 1000' bubble.
    76-10-505.5
    It covers an elementary or secondary school, institution of higher education, preschool or child care.
    Section 4 provides the exceptions, which include a permit.
    The (4)(a) exception includes the phrase "otherwise authorized by law", which could include an out-of-state permit, but I wouldn't want to rely on that.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    No swarn LOCAL COP can enforce FEDERAL Law,,,...
    A local cop can detain someone breaking a federal law and call in a federal agent. The federal agent will formally arrest them. I counted all of that as ability to "enforce." If I technically used the word "enforce" incorrectly, I'll apologize. I have acknowledged (and also teach) that this issue is impotent in regards to the FGFSZA, but the power is there.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Quote Originally Posted by jpm84092 View Post
    I have no desire to enter the argument above, but I hope your stay in Provo is a good one and that you learn the skills you are coming here to learn.

    Yellow Cat Out-
    Thanks. We are looking forward to the training. We are building a 17 lane indoor range which we hope to have open September 1st so the Range Master Instruction training should help us with that venture.

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    Regular Member Gil223's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    If Utah is 1 of the states that respects the 2A right of LACs to carry in a school,
    then I have renewed and profound respect for you and yours...

    I hope we can converse some more in the future.
    There is one requirement (which I failed to mention before) for carrying in or on school property - you must have a CFP, or you will be in violation of state law. The Utah Public Safety Code includes...
    SALT LAKE CITY (March 13, 2013) – In Salt Lake City this morning, the Utah State House of Representatives voted to nullify all federal gun laws, rule, regulations and orders on firearms, firearm accessories and ammunition.
    and the Utah Constitution says...
    Article I, Section 6. [Right to bear arms.]
    The individual right of the people to keep and bear arms for security and defense of self, family, others, property, or the state, as well as for other lawful purposes shall not be infringed; but nothing herein shall prevent the Legislature from defining the lawful use of arms.
    And, to top it all off, the Utah Constituion and Code is preemptive of all lesser political subdivisions rules, regulations laws and ordinances. Do we believe in RKBA? YBYA we do! Pax...
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    There are only three states rated by Guns & Ammo as better for gun owners than Utah, and I would argue that they are wrong on one of those. The three are Vermont, Alaska, and Arizona. I would argue on Arizona because Arizona has far more restricted locations than Utah.

    http://www.gunsandammo.com/2013/03/1...wners-in-2013/
    Last edited by rpyne; 06-23-2013 at 12:59 AM.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpyne View Post
    There are only three states rated by Guns & Ammo as better for gun owners than Utah, and I would argue that they are wrong on one of those. The three are Vermont, Alaska, and Arizona. I would argue on Arizona because Arizona has far more restricted locations than Utah...
    Overall, I give it to UT, too. AZ has Constitutional Carry, though I prefer the locations I can carry in NV and UT over the restrictions in AZ, too.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Regular Member jpm84092's Avatar
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    Cool Recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by acrimsontide View Post
    Thanks. We are looking forward to the training. We are building a 17 lane indoor range which we hope to have open September 1st so the Range Master Instruction training should help us with that venture.
    I would recommend that if you do not already have these NRA Ratings that you obtain an NRA rating as a Range Safety Officer and then Chief Range Safety Officer. I further recommend that any employees who would supervise the range obtain NRA Range Safety Officer. This would help with Insurance and would be good for advertising your new venture. The recommendation then goes further in that I recommend that, if you do not already hold these ratings, that you pursue and obtain a rating as an NRA Instructor - Pistol (and Rifle, if your range allows rifles). Unless a state has its own required curriculum, like UT does, most states that require hands-on firearm safety training accept the NRA Pistol Course as meeting that requirement.
    My cats support the Second Amendment. NRA Life Member, NRA Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, & Personal Protection - NRA Certified Range Safety Officer, Utah BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor.
    "Permission Slips" from Utah, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Arizona, and Florida. _ Verily, thou shalt not fiddle with thine firearm whilst in the bathroom stall, lest thine spouse seek condolences from thine friends.

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