Open carry in the New Stanton Borough building.

Mr Birdman · Jun 21, 2013

I went to the city council meeting last night (6/21). I wanted to know what was an offensive weapon, since they are not allowed in the park. I sat there for more than 90 min listening to borough business. Then finally the public got to speak. I asked them about the offensive provision in the guide book they sent out to borough residents. I wanted to know what was an offensive weapon. Like most politicians I could not get a straight answer. So I asked if firearms were allowed. I heard someone say no. The borough president said that I would need to come to the next meeting when the borough's legal council would be there. The president said that he believed that the lawyer wrote the provision. I then got out of my seat and and gave some of the council members coppies of Pa's limitation on the regulation of firearms. (18 Pa.C.S. 6120) I was open carrying the whole time. The code inforcement officer told me that this a govt building and weapons were not allowed. I told him that he did not have the authority to regulate firearms here or in the park. The president then called a end to the meeting and they went into a closed session.

Curmudgeon · Jun 22, 2013

I'm very interested to hear how this progresses. I have carried to meetings of the York City Council many times. As you probably know, there is no prohibition on carry in "government buildings" per se. There must be jail or detention facilities there, or court facilities, or it could be a school, for there to be any validity to a prohibition. It sounds like you already knew that, so, well done for standing up for your rights. It sounds like you really gave them some things to talk and think about.

The York City Council actually tried to move their location to a courthouse building just to keep citizens from carrying lawfully to the meetings. The attempt failed, but it shows the ridiculous extent some will go to to exert authority over 2A supporters.

This particular sub-forum does not get a lot of traffic but don't be discouraged. Please post updates . If I were closer I would love to join you at one of the meetings.

Mr Birdman · Jun 22, 2013

Curmudgeon said:
I'm very interested to hear how this progresses. I have carried to meetings of the York City Council many times. As you probably know, there is no prohibition on carry in "government buildings" per se. There must be jail or detention facilities there, or court facilities, or it could be a school, for there to be any validity to a prohibition. It sounds like you already knew that, so, well done for standing up for your rights. It sounds like you really gave them some things to talk and think about.

The York City Council actually tried to move their location to a courthouse building just to keep citizens from carrying lawfully to the meetings. The attempt failed, but it shows the ridiculous extent some will go to to exert authority over 2A supporters.

This particular sub-forum does not get a lot of traffic but don't be discouraged. Please post updates . If I were closer I would love to join you at one of the meetings.

July 2nd is the next meeting. I will be there O/Cing of course. Question? What do I do if they blow a gasget and insist I leave or they call the cops?

Curmudgeon · Jun 22, 2013

Mr Birdman said:
July 2nd is the next meeting. I will be there O/Cing of course. Question? What do I do if they blow a gasget and insist I leave or they call the cops?

First, I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice. Use your best judgment.

Assuming the building is not a facility that falls under state prohibition for carrying firearms I believe they have no authority to ask you
to leave. This is not private property and it is not a private meeting. If they want to call the cops that's their choice. What are the
cops going to do? Arrest you for... what? If the cop(s) order you to do something your best bet is to clearly state that you do not
consent to their orders but you will comply. Then you must follow up by initiating a private complaint against the officer(s) and see
if you can get with Internal Affairs and get an investigation started.

I imagine they are within their authority to ask/demand you to leave if you are causing a disturbance, or acting disorderly or disruptive.
Your job is to make sure that you never give them that opportunity. Open carry of a firearm, in and of itself, is not disorderly conduct.

Just to prove the point here is the statute for Disorderly Conduct in Pennsylvania:

Link: http://law.onecle.com/pennsylvania/crimes-and-offenses/00.055.003.000.html

§ 5503. Disorderly conduct.
(a) Offense defined.--A person is guilty of disorderly
conduct if, with intent to cause public inconvenience, annoyance
or alarm, or recklessly creating a risk thereof, he:
(1) engages in fighting or threatening, or in violent or
tumultuous behavior;
(2) makes unreasonable noise;
(3) uses obscene language, or makes an obscene gesture;
or
(4) creates a hazardous or physically offensive
condition by any act which serves no legitimate purpose of
the actor.
(b) Grading.--An offense under this section is a misdemeanor
of the third degree if the intent of the actor is to cause
substantial harm or serious inconvenience, or if he persists in
disorderly conduct after reasonable warning or request to
desist. Otherwise disorderly conduct is a summary offense.
(c) Definition.--As used in this section the word "public"
means affecting or likely to affect persons in a place to which
the public or a substantial group has access; among the places
included are highways, transport facilities, schools, prisons,
apartment houses, places of business or amusement, any
neighborhood, or any premises which are open to the public.

Cross References. Section 5503 is referred to in sections
3573, 8902 of Title 42 (Judiciary and Judicial Procedure).

Notice the parts I bolded. Carrying a firearm for self-defense IS a legitimate purpose.

I have a small digital voice recorder that easily fits a shirt pocket. It is very sensitive.
These things can be very valuable when it's your word against theirs and they are getting
cute with their recollection of events and spoken words. You can believe I would be
carrying mine. I know here in York they are always audio/video recording these sessions
anyway, but this would give you YOUR recording. If it looks like things are going to get
ugly I would pull it out and let everyone know you are about to begin recording, then turn
it on. The law says people have a right to be free from electronic interception, so tell them
they are being recorded. After that, if they speak it's on them. You ought to record
yourself telling them they are being recorded. You do not need their permission. If they
don't want to be recorded they can shut up or leave. The law also says that police officers
have no expectation of privacy in the performance of their duties in public places, as they
are public officials. A public council meeting is hardly a private place.

I seriously doubt you are going to have any trouble in this, I am just trying to cover some
of the more important ideas. Remember, you have every right to be there, and every right to
carry there.

Mr Birdman · Jun 22, 2013

Curmudgeon said:
First, I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice. Use your best judgment.

Assuming the building is not a facility that falls under state prohibition for carrying firearms I believe they have no authority to ask you
to leave. This is not private property and it is not a private meeting. If they want to call the cops that's their choice. What are the
cops going to do? Arrest you for... what? If the cop(s) order you to do something your best bet is to clearly state that you do not
consent to their orders but you will comply. Then you must follow up by initiating a private complaint against the officer(s) and see
if you can get with Internal Affairs and get an investigation started.

I imagine they are within their authority to ask/demand you to leave if you are causing a disturbance, or acting disorderly or disruptive.
Your job is to make sure that you never give them that opportunity. Open carry of a firearm, in and of itself, is not disorderly conduct.

Just to prove the point here is the statute for Disorderly Conduct in Pennsylvania:

Link: http://law.onecle.com/pennsylvania/crimes-and-offenses/00.055.003.000.html

Notice the parts I bolded. Carrying a firearm for self-defense IS a legitimate purpose.

I have a small digital voice recorder that easily fits a shirt pocket. It is very sensitive.
These things can be very valuable when it's your word against theirs and they are getting
cute with their recollection of events and spoken words. You can believe I would be
carrying mine. I know here in York they are always audio/video recording these sessions
anyway, but this would give you YOUR recording. If it looks like things are going to get
ugly I would pull it out and let everyone know you are about to begin recording, then turn
it on. The law says people have a right to be free from electronic interception, so tell them
they are being recorded. After that, if they speak it's on them. You ought to record
yourself telling them they are being recorded. You do not need their permission. If they
don't want to be recorded they can shut up or leave. The law also says that police officers
have no expectation of privacy in the performance of their duties in public places, as they
are public officials. A public council meeting is hardly a private place.

I seriously doubt you are going to have any trouble in this, I am just trying to cover some
of the more important ideas. Remember, you have every right to be there, and every right to
carry there.

I did have a recording device with me and I used it. After 90+ min of boring borough buisness, I had to shut it off and delete the invigorating debate about the lawn tractor. I did turn it back on when it was my turn to speak. I plan to sit closer to the front so I can pick up every thing.

Open carry in the New Stanton Borough building.

Mr Birdman

Regular Member

Curmudgeon

Regular Member

Mr Birdman

Regular Member

Curmudgeon

Regular Member

Mr Birdman

Regular Member