Results 1 to 17 of 17

Thread: pine arts playground

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Richmond
    Posts
    163

    pine arts playground

    I was told that pine arts camp recreational area designated Richmond city parks, the playground and basketball area was school property. It lies very close to henrico border on Azalea but is in the city, not the actual pine arts center but the recreational area beside it....is it off limits for firearms? I tried to look it up on the web but had no success. Asking a city police officer would get various answers and possible legal trouble with the wrong info. I went to a yard sale very near there and my daughter wanted to walk over to the playground..someone said to not go over open carrying because it was considered school property, we just went to bryan park but knowing would be nice.
    Last edited by thedevilrobyjohn; 06-23-2013 at 12:41 AM. Reason: spelling

  2. #2
    Regular Member Esanders2008's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Virginia Beach, VA
    Posts
    576
    Quote Originally Posted by thedevilrobyjohn View Post
    I was told that pine arts camp recreational area designated Richmond city parks, the playground and basketball area was school property. It lies very close to henrico border on Azalea but is in the city, not the actual pine arts center but the recreational area beside it....is it off limits for firearms? I tried to look it up on the web but had no success. Asking a city police officer would get various answers and possible legal trouble with the wrong info. I went to a yard sale very near there and my daughter wanted to walk over to the playground..someone said to not go over open carrying because it was considered school property, we just went to bryan park but knowing would be nice.
    You are right to avoid asking a police officer. Your best bet would be to go to city hall and find out the boundaries of both the park and the school.

    Just a reminder, although not really enforced, one must be cautious about the federal GFSZ legislation. That park is DEFINITELY within 1000'.

    YMMV

    ETA: I just looked at the satellite images for the area, and it is my opinion that they are separate. I would still be careful though.
    Last edited by Esanders2008; 06-23-2013 at 01:18 PM.
    ...To make my bullets go faster!

  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Richmond
    Posts
    163
    Quote Originally Posted by Esanders2008 View Post
    You are right to avoid asking a police officer. Your best bet would be to go to city hall and find out the boundaries of both the park and the school.

    Just a reminder, although not really enforced, one must be cautious about the federal GFSZ legislation. That park is DEFINITELY within 1000'.

    YMMV

    ETA: I just looked at the satellite images for the area, and it is my opinion that they are separate. I would still be careful though.
    good info, my housei is within 1 foot of a school, wonder how that works...guess I just stay on my side of fence

  4. #4
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    13,580
    Quote Originally Posted by Esanders2008 View Post
    You are right to avoid asking a police officer. Your best bet would be to go to city hall and find out the boundaries of both the park and the school.

    Just a reminder, although not really enforced, one must be cautious about the federal GFSZ legislation. That park is DEFINITELY within 1000'.

    YMMV

    ETA: I just looked at the satellite images for the area, and it is my opinion that they are separate. I would still be careful though.
    I think he has a CHP which would exempt him from the GFZ.
    His home is exempted anyway.

    I don't know if the park is school property or not but I guarantee one out of every four people there are carrying illegally. (If it's the one I'm thinking of...almost Azalea and Chamberlyn)
    Last edited by peter nap; 06-23-2013 at 02:09 PM.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Esanders2008's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Virginia Beach, VA
    Posts
    576
    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    I think he has a CHP which would exempt him from the GFZ.
    His home is exempted anyway.

    I don't know if the park is school property or not but I guarantee one out of every four people there are carrying illegally. (If it's the one I'm thinking of...almost Azalea and Chamberlyn)
    Good point on the CHP, I had almost forgotten about that.
    ...To make my bullets go faster!

  6. #6
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    North Chesterfield, Va.
    Posts
    34,603
    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    I think he has a CHP which would exempt him from the GFZ.
    His home is exempted anyway.
    -snip--
    Quote Originally Posted by Esanders2008 View Post
    Good point on the CHP, I had almost forgotten about that.
    A CHP would qualify as an exemption to the 1000' GFSZ restriction, but still not protect him from carrying on school property.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Richmond
    Posts
    163
    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    I think he has a CHP which would exempt him from the GFZ.
    His home is exempted anyway.

    I don't know if the park is school property or not but I guarantee one out of every four people there are carrying illegally. (If it's the one I'm thinking of...almost Azalea and Chamberlyn)
    yes sir, thats the one. saw a man run from there and then fall dead on chamberlayne from gunshot wounds when I lived oon pony farm. A friend of mine owned that little shop in the parking lot until it was robbed so many times, think its a carpet or mttress place now....the hotdog shop is good, odd location

  8. #8
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    North Chesterfield VA
    Posts
    10,682
    According to the City Parks Dept the playground and basketball courts are part of the park.

    http://www.richmondgov.com/parks/Com...rPineCamp.aspx

    Amenities include a game room, computer lab, a multi-purpose room and restrooms. Located outside the community center are three basketball courts, a large children's playground, senior Fitness trail, one softball field and a soccer field.
    I'd contact the Parks Dept and ask for a survey map of the property just to make sure of the boundary between the school and the park.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  9. #9
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    7,705
    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    According to the City Parks Dept the playground and basketball courts are part of the park.

    http://www.richmondgov.com/parks/Com...rPineCamp.aspx

    I'd contact the Parks Dept and ask for a survey map of the property just to make sure of the boundary between the school and the park.

    stay safe.
    While perhaps a good idea, I predict any park employee is going to pretty much laugh at such a request. Does Richmond have a GIS service on line? Generally, web-based maps on public GIS sites are not "official" legal documents, but in practical terms, especially for publicly owned property, I don't think you're going to have much luck getting anything better or more accurate, unless you go do a title search at the courthouse.

    TFred

  10. #10
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    7,705
    Give this a try.

    It comes up with the school property "pinned" but if you click just to the north, the park comes up. Definitely two different pieces of property.

    TFred

  11. #11
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Houston
    Posts
    796
    This is one really good example I think of demonstrating the need to get something done about the whole 1000 foot thing. We have the same situation here in VA BH -- parks that are placed either on school grounds or tangent to that. One park that I'm very familiar with it is all but impossible to determine when you are on actual school grounds. Add to that there is more than one school there. Oh, and also -- the only parking that you can use is for both school and park and so according to what I've been told it is school grounds....or not...or is...or isn't. There is a ball field that the school claims is school property, and yet conflicting maps (on record with the city itself) show it to on one map to be school property and another it is not. And the elephant in the room here is that given how often encounters with a LEO involve problems (e.g., the LEO believing that it is illegal for one thing that isn't) I don't believe you're going to have the time to get the officer to look over plot lines after an urgent MWAG on school grounds.

    The law is a bad one. I think that we here understand and agree with that. I'm just wondering if it could be that these mixed use parks that are being put in place (and I can't believe that VA BH and the OP's park are unique -- I have to believe that with limited land availability and budget constraints that they are popping up in many states) could become a basis for the law not working. It's one thing, I think, to have to make a claim that simply walking past a school puts you at potential risk....and another to deny a citizen the lawful right to use a city park simply because the citizen is exercising a constitutional right.
    NRA Life Member

    "The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." Thomas Jefferson

  12. #12
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    7,705
    Quote Originally Posted by drdan01 View Post
    This is one really good example I think of demonstrating the need to get something done about the whole 1000 foot thing. We have the same situation here in VA BH -- parks that are placed either on school grounds or tangent to that. One park that I'm very familiar with it is all but impossible to determine when you are on actual school grounds. Add to that there is more than one school there. Oh, and also -- the only parking that you can use is for both school and park and so according to what I've been told it is school grounds....or not...or is...or isn't. There is a ball field that the school claims is school property, and yet conflicting maps (on record with the city itself) show it to on one map to be school property and another it is not. And the elephant in the room here is that given how often encounters with a LEO involve problems (e.g., the LEO believing that it is illegal for one thing that isn't) I don't believe you're going to have the time to get the officer to look over plot lines after an urgent MWAG on school grounds.

    The law is a bad one. I think that we here understand and agree with that. I'm just wondering if it could be that these mixed use parks that are being put in place (and I can't believe that VA BH and the OP's park are unique -- I have to believe that with limited land availability and budget constraints that they are popping up in many states) could become a basis for the law not working. It's one thing, I think, to have to make a claim that simply walking past a school puts you at potential risk....and another to deny a citizen the lawful right to use a city park simply because the citizen is exercising a constitutional right.
    In practical terms, I don't know of anyone who is actively working to repeal the GFSZA. And as long as there is a D in the office of the president, there's no point, because it would surely be vetoed, and there would be nowhere near enough votes in the Senate to override a veto.

    At this point, I suspect we are much more likely to see it overturned with some "perfect scenario" case making it to the SCOTUS. I have no idea if any of those are percolating their way up the chain right now.

    TFred

  13. #13
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    13,580
    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    In practical terms, I don't know of anyone who is actively working to repeal the GFSZA. And as long as there is a D in the office of the president, there's no point, because it would surely be vetoed, and there would be nowhere near enough votes in the Senate to override a veto.

    At this point, I suspect we are much more likely to see it overturned with some "perfect scenario" case making it to the SCOTUS. I have no idea if any of those are percolating their way up the chain right now.

    TFred
    I don't think you'll see either TFred. They aren't going to charge anyone because they know it won't stand up, so it isn't going to get overturned and Congress isn't going to change it because "We're on High Alert".

    It's the Boogy Man. It has a Chilling effect, it scares people, so it's doing what they want.

    What we need to do is work on the state law(s).
    Last edited by peter nap; 06-24-2013 at 08:55 AM.

  14. #14
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    North Chesterfield, Va.
    Posts
    34,603
    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    I don't think you'll see either TFred. They aren't going to charge anyone because they know it won't stand up, so it isn't going to get overturned and Congress isn't going to change it because "We're on High Alert".

    It's the Boogy Man. It has a Chilling effect, it scares people, so it's doing what they want.

    What we need to do is work on the state law(s).
    We also have the 4th Circuit Court recent decision on OC and RAS to our benefit.
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...and-Open-carry
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 06-24-2013 at 09:02 AM.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  15. #15
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    7,705
    There seem to be a lot of good pieces in place for such an eventual challenge. Wiki has started tracking convictions that have been upheld since the revised version, but I have not read through any of them to learn the circumstances. As PN implies, any prosecution under this law will be undertaken only in cases where it's just a small part of the overall crimes involved to ensure we don't get a clean "otherwise legal possession" case.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-Fre...990#Challenges

    TFred

  16. #16
    Campaign Veteran ak56's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Carnation, Washington, USA
    Posts
    748
    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    There seem to be a lot of good pieces in place for such an eventual challenge. Wiki has started tracking convictions that have been upheld since the revised version, but I have not read through any of them to learn the circumstances. As PN implies, any prosecution under this law will be undertaken only in cases where it's just a small part of the overall crimes involved to ensure we don't get a clean "otherwise legal possession" case.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-Fre...990#Challenges

    TFred
    Very brief analysis of the nine cases on the wikipedia site:


    1.Shot at car
    2. Felon in Possession
    3. Robbery
    4. Stopped on road, rifle aimed at synogogue - chase, multiple stashes of firearms/explosives.
    5. Possession of Cocaine with intent to distribute.
    6. Machine Gun
    7. Discharge of firearms in school zone, posession of firearms during crime of violence, use of firearm during crime of violence (found not guilty of attempted 1st degree murder).
    8. Discharged shotgun in vehicle in school parking lot.
    9. Conspiring to possess with intent to distribute cocaine, crack and heroin within 1000ft of school
    No right is held more sacred, or is more carefully guarded, by the common law than the right of every individual to the possession and control of his own person, free from all restraint or interference of others, unless by clear and unquestionable authority of law. Union Pacific Rail Co. vs Botsford as quoted in Terry v Ohio.


    Talk to your cats about catnip - before it's too late.

  17. #17
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    13,580
    Quote Originally Posted by ak56 View Post
    Very brief analysis of the nine cases on the wikipedia site:
    But surely there must be thousands of cases of people charged and convicted for driving through a school zone with a gun. There just have to be. That's one of the big reasons for getting a CHP.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •