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Thread: Soon to be open carrier

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    Cool Soon to be open carrier

    Let me introduce myself! My name is Jason, I live in Milwaukee and am currently 17, I turn 18 in one week and I'd like to start my open carry journey. I have a few questions and concerns as anyone newcomer would! But let me tell you why I want to open carry.

    Two years ago on my birthday, June 28th, I was attacked outside of my house. (I live by statefair park) The perp. was wielding a knife and I had no weapon only being 16. I was taking out the trash after my birthday party and it was late around 10:00pm when the guy approached me asking for money for food. I kindly told him I had no money on me and I stood my ground not acting scared. Well then he got really close and that is when he pulled the knife and asked me if I was going to invite him inside. My mother was inside and there was no way I was letting him get near her so I had grabbed his knife hand and just started punching him in the head as many times as I could before he got his knife hand free and ran away. I've always been told if you get in a knife fight you are going to get cut, it is true.. I had a 6" gash on my left arm that I hadn't noticed until my mom asked where all the blood was from and then I realized I was cut. After calling the cops and going to the E.R for broken knuckles and stitches, I realized if I would have been carrying, it all would have been avoided. Also the police found the guy in the freodtert hospital with a few teeth missing..

    So now I am almost old enough to carry, I decided I am going to do so.
    I am pretty up to date on laws such as I cannot go in state parks or fed or tax payer buildings, and 1k feet from a school.. But being in Milwaukee, has anyone ever had a bad run in with the LEO's? I know Ed Flynn is against open carry and all, but I feel I need to protect myself. I'd just like to see who all open carries in Milwaukee.

  2. #2
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Welcome aboard.
    This thread is stickied, and has a wealth of information:
    New to OC in WI, here's what you should know

    Quote Originally Posted by Miltown OC
    being in Milwaukee, has anyone ever had a bad run in with the LEO's? I know Ed Flynn is against open carry and all, but I feel I need to protect myself. I'd just like to see who all open carries in Milwaukee.
    Short answer is "yes", but they should know better by now.
    And to meet some of us there's the first Sunday meet-n-greet at the Delavan Starbuck's,
    and another at a Culver's in Franklin on the 21st of July. [4220 W Oakwood Park Ct, Franklin]
    Both of those are Sunday from 1-3pm.
    Carry welcome & encouraged but not mandatory.


    ETA: Here's my story about being wrongfully arrested by MPD. My opinion of them is not favorable. That's (barely) held in check by knowing someone who's an officer & is a really nice guy.
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...e-PD-right-now

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ed-with-941-23
    Last edited by MKEgal; 06-23-2013 at 11:30 PM.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Jason did I talk to you on HPFF?

    Never mind, the poster on HPFF is a female. Just a coincidence, she just turned 18 and is from WI, and asked about OC.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 06-23-2013 at 11:35 PM.
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    Thanks MKEgal, I read your wrongful arrest and am astonished. I just want you all to know that I am not out to be a rights activist, if a cop asks me for ID I will gladly present ID and the comply with everything he says. I am also not looking for trouble, but some of the area's I fish are pretty ghetto (menominee river hank arron state trail) and I have been messed with before. MKEgal I'd love to chat with you on open carry. Do you have a skype?

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miltown OC
    I am not out to be a rights activist, if a cop asks me for ID I will gladly present ID and the comply with everything he says
    It is of course your choice what to do with your life,
    but please consider that by doing so you are reinforcing their ideas of how subjects should behave & making encounters harder for the rest of us.

    Also understand that they're allowed to lie to you, and are not talking to you because they like you - they're investigating & hoping you'll say something they can use to charge you with a crime.

    (ETA: meeting someone socially is completely different. If you're a friend, I don't care where you work or how you're dressed while we're chatting.)

    I'd love to chat with you on open carry. Do you have a skype?
    Since I don't know what that is, the answer must be 'no'.
    (I just googled it. It involves video, so the answer is definitely no.)
    Last edited by MKEgal; 06-25-2013 at 01:00 AM.

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    Skype has the chat box, I do not video chat but I understand. Where all do you carry? Any place you wouldn't go? And also you have to understand, people who are ******** to cops by saying "I DO NOT CONSENT TO SEARCHES, AM I FREE TO GO? WHY ARE YOU DETAINING ME?" do not help us either. Treat a leo with respect, and usually it is mutual.. Usually. I just do not care to cause a scene.

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    And trust me, giving a civil servant more authority then he should has is the last thing I would ever do. I'd just rather be respectful and until a officer is a jerk to me, I will be nice to him. But if a officer just starts chewing me out and blah blah blah like they did with you, I wouldn't say a word.

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    The school zone nonsense will be the hardest obstacle in the city. Under the law even an off duty police officer cannot legally be armed 1000 feet from a school unless he/she has a CCL.

    The other problem is ignorance. I've talked to a couple of seasoned cops who were surprised to learn that one can posses a handgun in Wisconsin @ 18.

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    Regular Member Sorcice's Avatar
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    Soon to be open carrier

    Quote Originally Posted by Miltown OC View Post
    And also you have to understand, people who are ******** to cops by saying "I DO NOT CONSENT TO SEARCHES, AM I FREE TO GO? WHY ARE YOU DETAINING ME?" do not help us either. Treat a leo with respect, and usually it is mutual.. Usually. I just do not care to cause a scene.
    As said above, your free to do what ya like in regards to how you carry and interact with LEOs but please realize when you give up all your rights to "not cause a scene, it encourages LEOs to trample other's rights along with letting them know you are a sheep. To clarify, I'm not saying be an a-hole. But asking if you are being detained and if you are free to go or staying silent is much better than spilling your guts and implicating yourself unwittingly. Since it has not been linked so far please take a look at this http://youtu.be/6wXkI4t7nucvideo when you get a chance. It explains why it is important to keep quiet. Personally the only thing I'd ever tell a LEO (I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advise) if I was involved in a shooting is "I was forced to stop a threat. I'd like to see a lawyer before any further statements are made."
    Lastly, if you are ever in the Madison area I'd be happy to meet with you so you can ask any lingering questions. PM me if interested.

    Practice often. Stay safe.

    -Sorcice

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    I do not see how showing a ID is giving up all my rights. I am not arguing or anything and I agree with you 100% and I think you changed my mind about complying with a LEO.. I am just a 18 year old kid and the last thing I need is my mom getting a call from the cops saying I am downtown on disorderly conduct charges haha. With that being said, I have never had a problem with MKE cops and I never plan on a problem but hope for the best prepare for the worst right?

    Sor. so if I do get stopped for a MWAG call. If the cop comes up to me and is kind and just ask's to see ID to prove my age (I look like I am 16 lol) should I just kindly deny?

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    Regular Member Sorcice's Avatar
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    Soon to be open carrier

    You can do what you want. But carry a recorder that is always on. Digital ones nowadays will run a whole day on one charge or can be voice activated. I personally use my phone with a locked black screen and use the recorder as a decoy. If you get an MWAG call:
    1. Keep your hands in front of you and DO NOT go anywhere near your holster.
    2. If you are not driving you don't need an ID. I have to have mine on me because of my ccl if I'm concealing but before I got that I'd leave my ID in the car. You can't give them what you don't have.
    3. Ask for reasonable articulable suspicion "RAS" of a crime that has happened or is about to happen. Carry is not a prohibited act unless in a area noted by law. Know your laws.
    4. Ask if you are being detained or free to go. If they don't answer by the end of the second time I repeat it I say "have a nice day" do an about face and walk away. They can ask you whatever they want. It's considered consensual until you say something to implicate yourself. As MKE said they are professional investigators. They interview people for a living. Don't try to outsmart them. Stick to key questions or nothing at all.

    5. If asked anything(with exception to #6) before me asking for RAS I always say "I'm sorry but I do not answer questions of an investigative nature."

    6. When asked if it is loaded or why I carry by LEO or random person I usually go with "well as strong as I think I am, carrying a cop around on my shoulder is murder on the back so I opted for the next best line of defense."
    It calms the random gun shy person and lightens the mood for MWAG calls.

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    Regular Member Sorcice's Avatar
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    Soon to be open carrier

    Since I didn't technically answer your question. Part one- I wouldn't but its up to you. Part two- same thing but I did cover the situation in previous post.
    Last edited by Sorcice; 06-24-2013 at 02:16 PM.

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    O.k. So I am going to put my ID in the car glove box from now on. What should I do if I am being detained? Just be silent?

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    Regular Member Sorcice's Avatar
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    Soon to be open carrier

    If being detained ask what RAS he has to do so and inform that "you do not consent to search or seizure or for your gun serial to be ran but you will not resist in a physical manor." Then invoke the right to remain silent until a lawyer is present for any questioning.

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    Welcome to the blog Jason. I am sorry to hear your story and glad you weren't injured more seriously. You have some seasoned people up there. I see that one has replied to you already. Fortunately I have a constitutional original intent leo police Sargent as a friend who always encourages me to oc and gives me ammo. I know your town leos may give you a hard time..but don't back down if they tell you you can't oc etc... Hope your record is clean and if so get a WI CC license to keep you safe from those pesky GFSZs. That way you can carry as you wish.

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    I would get a CC but not being 21 makes it impossible!

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miltown OC
    I do not see how showing a ID is giving up all my rights.
    It's not. Only the 4A, potentially 5A.
    But it does allow the officer(s) to control you, because you're not just going to walk away w/o your ID, are you? You're going to stand there & wait while they run a background check, wants & warrants, etc.
    Or you can try just showing it to them, not let them take it from your hand. Bet they won't like that. I know the TSA doesn't.

    "No law allows officers to arrest for obstruction on a personís refusal to give his or her name. Mere silence is insufficient to constitute obstruction."
    Henes v. Morrissey (WI, 1995).
    That's in the commentary under the obstruction statute: http://docs.legis.wi.gov/statutes/statutes/946/IV/41

    For your concern about a disorderly conduct charge, read the statute. You cannot be charged with DC simply for being armed.
    http://docs.legis.wi.gov/statutes/statutes/947/01
    (1) Whoever, in a public or private place, engages in violent, abusive, indecent, profane, boisterous, unreasonably loud or otherwise disorderly conduct under circumstances in which the conduct tends to cause or provoke a disturbance is guilty of a Class B misdemeanor.

    (2) Unless other facts and circumstances that indicate a criminal or malicious intent on the part of the person apply, a person is not in violation of, and may not be charged with a violation of, this section for loading, carrying, or going armed with a firearm, without regard to whether the firearm is loaded or is concealed or openly carried.
    so if I do get stopped for a MWAG call. If the cop comes up to me and is kind and just ask's to see ID to prove my age (I look like I am 16 lol) should I just kindly deny?
    You can do whatever you want.
    If the officer thinks you're under 18, I'd say that's RAS of a crime (948.60 possession of a firearm by a minor). If s/he says "you look like you're under 18, & it's generally a crime for a minor to possess a firearm", I'd tend to show the ID. [everyone pick your jaws up now]

    But if the officer thinks you have to be 21, then s/he doesn't know the law, and showing that you're 18 isn't going to help much. That raises a different problem.
    Do you want to try to educate, do you know the statute so the officer can look it up in his/her book & see that you're telling the truth?
    Do you want to ask for a supervisor, who will hopefully know the law?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sorcice
    They can ask you whatever they want. It's considered consensual until you say something to implicate yourself
    I disagree, slightly.
    It's consensual until he thinks he's not free to walk away. Then he's being detained.
    That's why it's good to ask "why am I being detained" rather than "am I being detained".
    If the officer says "you're not being detained", walk away.
    If s/he says "because XYZ", then you get to decide whether to talk, show ID, call your lawyer, whatever.

    * * * * *

    "Stopping a car for no other reason than to check the license and registration was unreasonable under the 4th amendment."
    Delaware v. Prouse, 1979


    "Police conduct does not need to be egregious or outrageous in order to be coercive. Subtle pressures are considered to be coercive if they exceed the defendantís ability to resist. Pressures that are not coercive in one set of circumstances may be coercive in another set of circumstances."
    WI v. Hoppe, 2003


    "Mr. St. Johnís lawful possession of a loaded firearm in a crowded place could not, by itself, create a reasonable suspicion sufficient to justify an investigatory detention."
    St. John v. McColley


    The Third Circuit found that an individualís lawful possession of a firearm in a crowded place did not justify a search or seizure.
    United States v. Ubiles (3rd Cir. 2000)


    The Tenth Circuit found that an investigatory detention initiated by an officer after he discovered that the defendant lawfully possessed a loaded firearm lacked sufficient basis because the firearm alone did not create a reasonable suspicion of criminal activity.
    United States v. King (10th Cir. 1993)

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    MKEgal, thanks so much for clearing up a lot of questions.. Now onto open carry in the car.. If I remember correctly, Scott Walker passed the law where we can open carry with a loaded handgun in a moving vehicle now.. When I am sitting in my car, will they consider it concealed because it's blocked by my center counsel? Or should I just put the damned thing on the seat?

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Even though they lost the case against me,
    IMO yes, Milwaukee PD officers have been told that any gun in a car is automatically concealed & will arrest anyone found OC in a car w/o a carry license.

    They & the DA's office are deliberately ignoring the transport statute upgrade which was part of Act 35,
    as well as the WI Constitutional amendment in 1998 protecting RKBA,
    as well as Act 51(?) which again amended the transport statute and allowed for long guns to be unloaded & unencased in a vehicle.

    I'd say either put it on a non-slip pad on the dash, or do the old unload-and-encase dance (which of course endangers people around you).
    The latter protects you from "gun-free" school zones.

    From my experience, they won't simply say you were OC in the car, they will find some way to claim that you had it covered... plus it was in a car & they don't have x-ray vision so they couldn't see through the side of the car & the seat you were sitting in and that makes it concealed. (Yes, they really did that.)

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    So if I keep it on the dash, I should be ok?

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    Regular Member Plankton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miltown OC View Post
    So if I keep it on the dash, I should be ok?
    Not within 1000 feet of a school. Then it must be unloaded and encased.
    Liberty or death. We're sorry, there are no other options available at this time..........
    "Safety is the new Liberty, and recklessness is the new Freedom, and alcoholism is the new Doug Huffman."

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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    Even though they lost the case against me,
    IMO yes, Milwaukee PD officers have been told that any gun in a car is automatically concealed & will arrest anyone found OC in a car w/o a carry license.

    They & the DA's office are deliberately ignoring the transport statute upgrade which was part of Act 35,
    as well as the WI Constitutional amendment in 1998 protecting RKBA,
    as well as Act 51(?) which again amended the transport statute and allowed for long guns to be unloaded & unencased in a vehicle.
    I can't speak for MPD but this isn't true for the agency I work for. Nor is it true by what an ADA told us at a training session in July 2012. Nor is it true according to what Assistant Attorney General Dave perlman stated at the Act 35 conference I attended.

    We are not looking to arrest someone by stretching what is/isn't concealed in a vehicle. And we had considerable intercourse on what was concealed and what isn't. What it comes down to is we're to consider a gun legal/legally carried unless it is overwhelmingly obvious that it is not legal/legally carried. And open carry in a vehicle w/o permit is legal. We were told anything above the door handle where someone immediately outside the vehicle could see it was to be considered open.

    All this nonsense is why we all need to mind our p's&q's and not do anything stupid. After a few years of the ccw law when folks realize there aren't wild west gun fights and blood flowing in the streets we can switch to constitutional carry like we should have gotten in the first place and all this worry about what is concealed and where will be a non-issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
    I can't speak for MPD but this isn't true for the agency I work for. Nor is it true by what an ADA told us at a training session in July 2012. Nor is it true according to what Assistant Attorney General Dave perlman stated at the Act 35 conference I attended.

    We are not looking to arrest someone by stretching what is/isn't concealed in a vehicle. And we had considerable intercourse on what was concealed and what isn't. What it comes down to is we're to consider a gun legal/legally carried unless it is overwhelmingly obvious that it is not legal/legally carried. And open carry in a vehicle w/o permit is legal. We were told anything above the door handle where someone immediately outside the vehicle could see it was to be considered open.

    All this nonsense is why we all need to mind our p's&q's and not do anything stupid. After a few years of the ccw law when folks realize there aren't wild west gun fights and blood flowing in the streets we can switch to constitutional carry like we should have gotten in the first place and all this worry about what is concealed and where will be a non-issue.
    How do you explain what happened to MKE? Rogue cops?

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    The only thing I could think of the cops being dicks to her about was loitering.. If I was a cop and saw a random car in a parking lot I'd be a little suspicious also. But they just nailed her with charges because they are dicks.

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