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Thread: July 1st: Just around the corner - HB 1833: CHP law totally reformatted

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    July 1st: Just around the corner - HB 1833: CHP law totally reformatted

    Just realized we are only days away from July 1st. Upon reviewing the gun laws for this year, there really weren't any big victories, aside from the defeats of the many anti-gun bills, which considering the current climate in the anti-gun world and liberal media, is probably a pretty big victory all by itself.

    Of particular note is the subject bill, HB 1833, which after several years of trying, was finally passed. Say goodbye to the good old 18.2-308 as you have grown to know and love it over the years, it's all different now, while supposedly meaning the same thing. In a way, I sort of feel like we're replacing the KJV with the NIV... sorry if that analogy offends anyone!

    They usually don't publish the new laws until July 1st exactly, but I haven't checked.

    TFred

    HB 1833 Concealed weapons and concealed handgun permits; reorganizing & recodifying law related to carrying.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Just realized we are only days away from July 1st. Upon reviewing the gun laws for this year, there really weren't any big victories, aside from the defeats of the many anti-gun bills, which considering the current climate in the anti-gun world and liberal media, is probably a pretty big victory all by itself.

    Of particular note is the subject bill, HB 1833, which after several years of trying, was finally passed. Say goodbye to the good old 18.2-308 as you have grown to know and love it over the years, it's all different now, while supposedly meaning the same thing. In a way, I sort of feel like we're replacing the KJV with the NIV... sorry if that analogy offends anyone!

    They usually don't publish the new laws until July 1st exactly, but I haven't checked.

    TFred

    HB 1833 Concealed weapons and concealed handgun permits; reorganizing & recodifying law related to carrying.
    I have lots to take care of before the 1st (Most should be done today).....but reading new P4P is on my agenda right after calling Janet Napolitano for a hot date! Sorry TFred..Irresistible Impulse.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Just realized we are only days away from July 1st. Upon reviewing the gun laws for this year, there really weren't any big victories, aside from the defeats of the many anti-gun bills, which considering the current climate in the anti-gun world and liberal media, is probably a pretty big victory all by itself.

    Of particular note is the subject bill, HB 1833, which after several years of trying, was finally passed. Say goodbye to the good old 18.2-308 as you have grown to know and love it over the years, it's all different now, while supposedly meaning the same thing. In a way, I sort of feel like we're replacing the KJV with the NIV... sorry if that analogy offends anyone!

    They usually don't publish the new laws until July 1st exactly, but I haven't checked.

    TFred

    HB 1833 Concealed weapons and concealed handgun permits; reorganizing & recodifying law related to carrying.
    Are you ordering the bound, hardback library edition or will you just pick up a paper back copy?
    Going to take awhile to learn the "what & where" of this
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    Regular Member Esanders2008's Avatar
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    July 1st: Just around the corner - HB 1833: CHP law totally reformatted

    I just read though it, and it looks clean to me.
    ...To make my bullets go faster!

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Are you ordering the bound, hardback library edition or will you just pick up a paper back copy?
    Going to take awhile to learn the "what & where" of this
    I ordered the very soft (toilet paper grade) so that I could put it to good use.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

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    Campaign Veteran roscoe13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esanders2008 View Post
    I just read though it, and it looks clean to me.
    Nothing that matters has changed, seems like a big waste of time, paper & taxpayer dollars to me...

    Roscoe
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good." - George Washington

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roscoe13 View Post
    Nothing that matters has changed, seems like a big waste of time, paper & taxpayer dollars to me...

    Roscoe
    I think over time we will be happy with it. The current code is WAY convoluted, and combines all aspects of the process in one big, very intertwined and confusing section. This breaks the various parts out into separate sections, and I hope once we get used to it, will be much easier for all (maybe even wayward LEOs?) to read and understand.

    TFred

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    I think over time we will be happy with it. The current code is WAY convoluted, and combines all aspects of the process in one big, very intertwined and confusing section. This breaks the various parts out into separate sections, and I hope once we get used to it, will be much easier for all (maybe even wayward LEOs?) to read and understand.

    TFred
    Wayward LEO's can't read...that's why they're wayward!

    I don't understand why it would be better. On the very few occasions I decide to look at the statute, I go to it and long as it is, it's all there. Breaking it up into different categories just means you have to look harder and probably miss something in the process.

    I don't understand the purpose other than something to brag about at fundraisers.

    Kinda like the Bumble on Rudolf....."Looky what he can do"

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    I think over time we will be happy with it. The current code is WAY convoluted, and combines all aspects of the process in one big, very intertwined and confusing section. This breaks the various parts out into separate sections, and I hope once we get used to it, will be much easier for all (maybe even wayward LEOs?) to read and understand.

    TFred
    I just hate looking for things that aren't where I think I left them - kinda like looking for my glasses so I can find my truck keys. The glasses are supposed to be on my face and the keys in my pocket....always. Got used to that one big "key ring" called § 18.2-308.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 06-24-2013 at 05:35 PM. Reason: diction
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    I just hate looking for things that aren't where I think I left them - kinda like looking for my glasses so I can find my truck keys. The glasses are supposed to be on my face and the keys in my pocket....always. Got used to that one big "key ring" called § 18.2-308.
    Understand all too well.

    For those who might want to keep a copy for reference and search, just go to the page, right-click somewhere and Save As an htm or html file on your local computer.

    Once July 1st rolls around, the old version won't be on-line any longer, I suspect.

    TFred

    http://leg1.state.va.us/000/cod/18.2-308.HTM

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    I like the structure. Far easier to read than the old version.

    I do have one question. In 18.2-308.02, there is no requirement stated to appear in person to submit an initial application, so one could infer that the process could be accomplished by mail, whereas 18.2-308.010 specifically allows renewal by mail.

    Since there is no stated requirement to appear in person, could a CC Clerk actually require it?

    ETA: The application (7/1/2013 version) is also posted. The name section asks for a separate list of names used. I assume that includes maiden names of female spouses. Has anyone actually included a separate list, or just shown it in () in the Last Name field?
    Last edited by 2a4all; 06-30-2013 at 12:30 PM.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2a4all View Post
    I like the structure. Far easier to read than the old version.

    I do have one question. In 18.2-308.02, there is no requirement stated to appear in person to submit an initial application, so one could infer that the process could be accomplished by mail, whereas 18.2-308.010 specifically allows renewal by mail.

    Since there is no stated requirement to appear in person, could a CC Clerk actually require it?

    ETA: The application (7/1/2013 version) is also posted. The name section asks for a separate list of names used. I assume that includes maiden names of female spouses. Has anyone actually included a separate list, or just shown it in () in the Last Name field?
    Very interested in hearing opinions on this. I have a friend who may be willing to test the waters, doubly fun as it allows for more poking of our illustrious Petersburg Clerk's Office with pointy sticks.

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    Regular Member 45acpForMe's Avatar
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    Question about schools

    With the code change they moved the vehicle closed container under the concealed handgun section of the code:

    10. Any person who may lawfully possess a firearm and is carrying a handgun while in a personal, private motor vehicle or vessel and such handgun is secured in a container or compartment in the vehicle or vessel; and

    So under the old law since the vehicle statute was outside the CHP section and anyone could possess a loaded handgun in an approved closed container in their vehicle while on school grounds. Now it seems to be only CHP holders can do that? Am I missing anything?

    Also, the way I read it before was you could have a loaded handgun in your "closed container" on school grounds and exit your vehicle but again now do you only get that exception if you have a CHP. Sorry Peter but it may be more justification for people to get a CHP with the change.
    Last edited by 45acpForMe; 07-01-2013 at 06:52 PM.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 45acpForMe View Post
    With the code change they moved the vehicle closed container under the concealed handgun section of the code:

    10. Any person who may lawfully possess a firearm and is carrying a handgun while in a personal, private motor vehicle or vessel and such handgun is secured in a container or compartment in the vehicle or vessel; and

    So under the old law since the vehicle statute was outside the CHP section and anyone could possess a loaded handgun in an approved closed container in their vehicle while on school grounds. Now it seems to be only CHP holders can do that? Am I missing anything?

    Also, the way I read it before was you could have a loaded handgun in your "closed container" on school grounds and exit your vehicle but again now do you only get that exception if you have a CHP. Sorry Peter but it may be more justification for people to get a CHP with the change.
    I don't see how you are drawing these conclusions.

    Paragraph 10 is still on the somewhat long list of Exceptions. The introduction to the paragraph states:

    "C. Except as provided in subsection A of § 18.2-308.012, this section shall not apply to:
    10. Any person who may lawfully possess a firearm and is carrying a handgun while in a personal, private motor vehicle or vessel and such handgun is secured in a container or compartment in the vehicle or vessel;"

    The school exception is derived from 18.2-308.1, which states:

    "The exemptions set out in § 18.2-308 shall apply, mutatis mutandis, to the provisions of this section."

    Since Paragraph 10 is still included in 18.2-308, it should still apply to the school section as well.

    JMHO from a plain text reading of the code.

    TFred

    ETA: I really am confused at how you came to your conclusions... I re-read your post about a half a dozen times... part of the problem is this: "under the old law since the vehicle statute was outside the CHP section". This is not true, and they didn't "move" the closed container paragraph anywhere. The closed container exception has always been just that, an exception to the otherwise prohibited act of carrying a handgun in a concealed manner.
    Last edited by TFred; 07-01-2013 at 07:18 PM.

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    Regular Member 45acpForMe's Avatar
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    TFred, I will happily be wrong. I was just asking for others to clarify. The school section states that an unloaded gun in a closed container is fine. If the assumption that a loaded firearm in a closed container was already ok in the over-lording section then maybe the unloaded firearm in a closed container should have been removed from that code section as redundant.
    My assumptions were from reading other threads on the "cleanup" of the code may have a bad side affect of this exception being voided. I can read the code and come to the same conclusions that you do but what you or I or (most people here) understand may not be what a judge or prosecutor believe.

    Hopefully it is a non-issue.
    ETA: I may be wrong about the code moving too but that was what I was under the impression that the revision did based on other threads.
    Last edited by 45acpForMe; 07-01-2013 at 07:27 PM.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 45acpForMe View Post
    With the code change they moved the vehicle closed container under the concealed handgun section of the code:

    10. Any person who may lawfully possess a firearm and is carrying a handgun while in a personal, private motor vehicle or vessel and such handgun is secured in a container or compartment in the vehicle or vessel; and

    So under the old law since the vehicle statute was outside the CHP section and anyone could possess a loaded handgun in an approved closed container in their vehicle while on school grounds. Now it seems to be only CHP holders can do that? Am I missing anything?

    Also, the way I read it before was you could have a loaded handgun in your "closed container" on school grounds and exit your vehicle but again now do you only get that exception if you have a CHP. Sorry Peter but it may be more justification for people to get a CHP with the change.


    No need to be sorry, I think you're right.
    I predicted this months ago and there will be other problems as well just as there will be with the confidentiality statute.

    I've said before, you have to be careful about what you ask for because you just might get it.

    I think the lines have been pretty well drawn now and there will be people getting CHP's and people refusing. Some have a good reason for one, some are the spy kids but everyone, OC and CC suffers from bad legislation.

    The sad part is an awful lot of kids are being raised to go along to get along. If you want a really good example of it, read the recent posts. One of our biggest complainers about the Government went along to get along and it didn't work out.

    Not OC related but a good example of how our perception of freedom has changed. It's really just a 7 letter word without the walk...a very good read:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/30/op...m.html?hp&_r=0

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    Quote Originally Posted by 45acpForMe View Post
    With the code change they moved the vehicle closed container under the concealed handgun section of the code:

    10. Any person who may lawfully possess a firearm and is carrying a handgun while in a personal, private motor vehicle or vessel and such handgun is secured in a container or compartment in the vehicle or vessel; and

    So under the old law since the vehicle statute was outside the CHP section and anyone could possess a loaded handgun in an approved closed container in their vehicle while on school grounds. Now it seems to be only CHP holders can do that? Am I missing anything?

    Also, the way I read it before was you could have a loaded handgun in your "closed container" on school grounds and exit your vehicle but again now do you only get that exception if you have a CHP. Sorry Peter but it may be more justification for people to get a CHP with the change.
    It's actually quite simple, and no different than with the old formatting. There are three exceptions to the prohibition of carrying on school property:

    1) CHP holder can carry inside a vehicle, as long as they do not get out. (18.2-308.1 C vii)
    2) Any non-prohibited person can have a loaded firearm secured in a container while they are in a personal, private motor vehicle. (18.2-308 C 10)
    3) Any person can have an unloaded firearm in a car in a closed container whether or not they are in the car as well. (18.2-308.1 C vi)

    The key is that the general exception only applies to a person "while in a personal, private motor vehicle".

    So, if you have a CHP, you can be actively carrying as long as you don't get out of the car. If you don't have a CHP, you can have it loaded in a secured container as long as you don't get out of the car. Anyone can have it unloaded and in a closed container as long as it stays in the car (whether you stay in the car or not).
    Alma 43:47 - "And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed...."
    Self defense isn't just a good idea, it's a commandment.

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    Regular Member 45acpForMe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grylnsmn View Post
    It's actually quite simple, and no different than with the old formatting. There are three exceptions to the prohibition of carrying on school property:

    1) CHP holder can carry inside a vehicle, as long as they do not get out. (18.2-308.1 C vii)
    2) Any non-prohibited person can have a loaded firearm secured in a container while they are in a personal, private motor vehicle. (18.2-308 C 10)
    3) Any person can have an unloaded firearm in a car in a closed container whether or not they are in the car as well. (18.2-308.1 C vi)

    The key is that the general exception only applies to a person "while in a personal, private motor vehicle".

    So, if you have a CHP, you can be actively carrying as long as you don't get out of the car. If you don't have a CHP, you can have it loaded in a secured container as long as you don't get out of the car. Anyone can have it unloaded and in a closed container as long as it stays in the car (whether you stay in the car or not).
    If it is in a closed container (loaded or not) why would it matter if you got out of the car? I understand that if you are carrying on your person with a CHP you can not get out of the car because the gun would either come with you which is illegal or you would have to transfer it to a closed container which would be hard to do without exposing it. If the gun is in a closed container with you in the car and it is legal, where would you say the code says that if you leave the car it would be illegal? I am assuming you aren't leaving small children in the car or something like that when you exit the car. If I exit the car I am no longer possessing the firearm as it is no longer in my reach.
    Last edited by 45acpForMe; 07-01-2013 at 10:21 PM.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grylnsmn View Post
    It's actually quite simple, and no different than with the old formatting. There are three exceptions to the prohibition of carrying on school property:

    1) CHP holder can carry inside a vehicle, as long as they do not get out. (18.2-308.1 C vii)
    2) Any non-prohibited person can have a loaded firearm secured in a container while they are in a personal, private motor vehicle. (18.2-308 C 10)
    3) Any person can have an unloaded firearm in a car in a closed container whether or not they are in the car as well. (18.2-308.1 C vi)

    The key is that the general exception only applies to a person "while in a personal, private motor vehicle".

    So, if you have a CHP, you can be actively carrying as long as you don't get out of the car. If you don't have a CHP, you can have it loaded in a secured container as long as you don't get out of the car. Anyone can have it unloaded and in a closed container as long as it stays in the car (whether you stay in the car or not).
    Quote Originally Posted by 45acpForMe View Post
    If it is in a closed container (loaded or not) why would it matter if you got out of the car? I understand that if you are carrying on your person with a CHP you can not get out of the car because the gun would either come with you which is illegal or you would have to transfer it to a closed container which would be hard to do without exposing it. If the gun is in a closed container with you in the car and it is legal, where would you say the code says that if you leave the car it would be illegal? I am assuming you aren't leaving small children in the car or something like that when you exit the car. If I exit the car I am no longer possessing the firearm as it is no longer in my reach.
    I can't speak for someone else, but I suspect the red text above is a mis-type. The secured container section does not require one to either have or not have a CHP, nor does it require one to stay in the car.

    ETA: Hmm, thinking more about this... maybe he is right... the secured container provision does only address while one is in the car, and once you exit, then I believe his point is that you revert back to the other sections which require the firearm to be unloaded.

    ETA(2): The secure container text says: "10. Any person who may lawfully possess a firearm and is carrying a handgun while in a personal, private motor vehicle or vessel and such handgun is secured in a container or compartment in the vehicle or vessel;"

    So if you are not "while in a ... motor vehicle", the exception is not met. And there are no other code sections which allow you to store a loaded firearm in a car on school grounds... at least none that I am aware of!

    TFred
    Last edited by TFred; 07-01-2013 at 10:32 PM.

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    Regular Member 45acpForMe's Avatar
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    I understand what you are saying. Great, more manipulation of a handgun for no good reason. I wonder how many firearms went off accidentally while stored in a closed container on school property???? I wish we could just get rid of the gun free zones (federal and state) altogether!

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    I can't speak for someone else, but I suspect the red text above is a mis-type. The secured container section does not require one to either have or not have a CHP, nor does it require one to stay in the car.

    ETA: Hmm, thinking more about this... maybe he is right... the secured container provision does only address while one is in the car, and once you exit, then I believe his point is that you revert back to the other sections which require the firearm to be unloaded.

    ETA(2): The secure container text says: "10. Any person who may lawfully possess a firearm and is carrying a handgun while in a personal, private motor vehicle or vessel and such handgun is secured in a container or compartment in the vehicle or vessel;"

    So if you are not "while in a ... motor vehicle", the exception is not met. And there are no other code sections which allow you to store a loaded firearm in a car on school grounds... at least none that I am aware of!

    TFred
    Quote Originally Posted by 45acpForMe View Post
    I understand what you are saying. Great, more manipulation of a handgun for no good reason. I wonder how many firearms went off accidentally while stored in a closed container on school property???? I wish we could just get rid of the gun free zones (federal and state) altogether!
    That is my read also. If you are going to get out of your vehicle on school property, then you had best prepare and unload and secure it before you enter the parking lot/driveway.

    With a CHP you are good to drive in to pick up someone, but don't jump out to help them if they fall - you'll become an instant criminal

    Totally agree - down with GFZSs. They only make the children "unsafe at any speed."
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    Quote Originally Posted by 45acpForMe View Post
    If it is in a closed container (loaded or not) why would it matter if you got out of the car? I understand that if you are carrying on your person with a CHP you can not get out of the car because the gun would either come with you which is illegal or you would have to transfer it to a closed container which would be hard to do without exposing it. If the gun is in a closed container with you in the car and it is legal, where would you say the code says that if you leave the car it would be illegal? I am assuming you aren't leaving small children in the car or something like that when you exit the car. If I exit the car I am no longer possessing the firearm as it is no longer in my reach.
    It matters because both the CHP exception in 18.2-308.1(C)(vii) and the general loaded and secured in a closed container exception in 18.2-308(C)(10) place a conditional modifier on the possession, specifically that it be while in a motor vehicle. The school-specific unloaded closed container provision in 18.2-308.1(C)(vi) does not have a "while" limitation.

    The full text of each part:
    Quote Originally Posted by 18.2-308.1(C)(vi)
    The provisions of this section shall not apply to ... (vi) a person who possesses an unloaded firearm that is in a closed container, or a knife having a metal blade, in or upon a motor vehicle, or an unloaded shotgun or rifle in a firearms rack in or upon a motor vehicle;
    Quote Originally Posted by 18.2-308(C)(10)
    C. Except as provided in subsection A of § 18.2-308.012, this section shall not apply to:

    ...

    10. Any person who may lawfully possess a firearm and is carrying a handgun while in a personal, private motor vehicle or vessel and such handgun is secured in a container or compartment in the vehicle or vessel;
    Quote Originally Posted by 18.2-308.1(C)(vii)
    The provisions of this section shall not apply to ... (vii) a person who has a valid concealed handgun permit and possesses a concealed handgun while in a motor vehicle in a parking lot, traffic circle, or other means of vehicular ingress or egress to the school;
    Note that the first school-specific provision (18.2-308.1 C vi) doesn't restrict it to while the person is in a motor vehicle, while the other two do (text listed in red).
    Alma 43:47 - "And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed...."
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    Regular Member ocholsteroc's Avatar
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    "§ 18.2-308. Carrying concealed weapons; exceptions; penalty.

    A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation, (i) any pistol, revolver, or other weapon designed or intended to propel a missile of any kind by action of an explosion of any combustible material;
    "


    Does other weapon mean shotgun can be concealed in a bag on you/hiking in the woods? was "other weapon" on the old law?

    Thanks.
    How come a DUI you can get your driver licence back, which it is a privilege. But if commiting a felon, even something non violent like stealing, you are denied your constitutional rights for the rest of your life?
    If you don't support the Second Amendment to the Constitution, what other parts of the Constitution do you reject?
    More restrictions on guns? how about restrictions on chainsaws and knives?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ocholsteroc View Post
    "§ 18.2-308. Carrying concealed weapons; exceptions; penalty.

    A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation, (i) any pistol, revolver, or other weapon designed or intended to propel a missile of any kind by action of an explosion of any combustible material;
    "


    Does other weapon mean shotgun can be concealed in a bag on you/hiking in the woods? was "other weapon" on the old law?

    Thanks.
    No, and yes. A CHP ONLY exempts you from the handgun part of the prohibition...

    Roscoe
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good." - George Washington

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