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Thread: ak pistol oc

  1. #1
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    ak pistol oc

    What are the opinions on how one would legally oc with a loaded ak pistol?

    www.arsenalinc.com/usa/SAM7K_PISTOL.html


    This is manufactured and imported as a pistol. Not a sbr/aow.... and not looking to.

    This is a legal PISTOL.

    I know its concealable and can be loaded in car with my cpl.

    But how does one legally oc with this PISTOL?

    It has a sling, either one or two point attachment?

    Can i legally throw it over my shoulder or around my neck?

    Thoughts on legal oc of this PISTOL are appreciated.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Schlepnier's Avatar
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    Thumbs down

    I also have an AR pistol and i'm pretty sure(but I am not a lawyer so talk to rapgood for that one) if you have it slung or in one of those custom holsters it is fine for carry, so long as your not holding it AKA brandishing.

    HOWEVER I also would tell you it is NOT PRACTICAL to carry it as an OC or even CC weapon for personal protection as it is to unwieldy to be useful.
    The 30rnd mag sticks out quite a ways on mine. while I love the way it feels to have a compact weapon which is also fun to shoot, it is really designed to be carried in hand which would be a NOGO for OC or CC.

    If your carrying for protection use a compact pistol, save the AR/AK pistols for the range, rallies, home defense, and the back country.
    Last edited by Schlepnier; 06-27-2013 at 04:37 AM.
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    Regular Member GreatWhiteLlama's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schlepnier View Post
    *snip*

    If your carrying for protection use a pistol, save the AR/AK pistols for the range, rallies, home defense, and the back country.
    +1
    Those are perfect for hiking, but a PITA for everyday carry.
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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Right, wrong, or otherwise, you're bound to get a lot of unwanted attention when openly carrying one of these (or an AR Pistol for that matter).

    An openly carried pistol/revolver (of the conventional type) is often unnoticed by others when the carrier is just going about their business in a normal manner.

    If you like bringing attention to yourself, you'll surely be successful. The question is will it be the kind you want?
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    Thank you for the three replies.

    However the question still stands...

    How does one legally open carry a legal pistol that happens to be of an unusual size?

    Is it legal to have a slung loaded pistol?

    I am trying to better understand what open carry can be outside of a holster?

    Should this be any different than a shoulder holster?

    I want the legal, not the opinion.

  6. #6
    Regular Member decklin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by standup View Post
    Thank you for the three replies.

    However the question still stands...

    How does one legally open carry a legal pistol that happens to be of an unusual size?

    Is it legal to have a slung loaded pistol?

    I am trying to better understand what open carry can be outside of a holster?

    Should this be any different than a shoulder holster?

    I want the legal, not the opinion.
    You should read through the posts again. They've already answered your questions.
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    @Decklin

    I noticed you provided no information.

    The first response says "pretty sure"...

    The next responses are all opinions about how they think about this weapon as a carry option.

    The question remains.

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    Regular Member tombrewster421's Avatar
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    ak pistol oc

    Quote Originally Posted by standup View Post
    @Decklin

    I noticed you provided no information.

    The first response says "pretty sure"...

    The next responses are all opinions about how they think about this weapon as a carry option.

    The question remains.
    If you can lawfully carry a slung rifle then you can do the same for a rifle design pistol. If the laws don't say you can't, then you can. Carry on!
    Guns don't kill people, bullets do!

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    Activist Member golddigger14s's Avatar
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    If you truly want a "legal" statement, your best recourse is to consult an actual lawyer. Most of us here are not lawyers, we are just your basic everyday keyboard ninjas with only opinions to go by.
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    Re: ak pistol oc

    IIRC someone on the Washington board here has in the past posted a picture of themselves at a rally with a pistol of that size in a belt/leg holster.... A rally with police present who did not give the person any trouble over it.

    That being said, nobody, and I truly mean nobody, not even the Washington State attorney general, can tell you that any given manner of open carry for that gun is legal.

    Why do I say this? Simple... Because, quite frankly, the written law on OC is vague, and there is almost no case law on the subject, so it remains vague.

    As an example, last I heard anyway, a guy in Vancouver was convicted for OC' ing near a store that had been robbed at gun point the day before. That may be overturned by now, or in the future, but even if it is, he will never get back the years of headaches it caused him.

    So the real answer is... Technically the law says you can not OC in a time, place, and manner that warrants alarm, and wtf that means to any given citizen, police officer, prosecuter, jury, or future State Supreme Court is a complete unknown.... In addition, it is fair to assume that, regardless, that size gun will be far more likely to cause all those groups to think it warrants alarm far more often than a smaller handgun.

    So you roll your dice and take your chances every single time you OC in this state, and the bigger the gun, the riskier the bet. (Fortunately though, most of the police in this state are no longer being stupid about this issue so smaller guns are almost no worry at all in practice).

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    More to the point - what is and what is not acceptable as a practice to be promoted or encouraged on OCDO. We've been that route for a while with an individual who danced around with the rules, carried an AK style pistol, even painted it orange - all of that did little good for the forum or the movement to normalize acceptance. Most felt he was bringing a negative reaction instead of a positive contribution. Ultimately he was banned.

    Mike and John have made it quite clear that "This web site is focused on the right to openly carry properly holstered handguns in daily American life." (condensed from rule #14) That has been the limiting factor on this site for some time.

    What may be legal in your state is really not the question. The idea behind OC as viewed by the site owners is to promote and defend OCing as we go about our normal everyday lives - to gain acceptance through normalization of seeing LAC in a non-threatening way - grocery shopping, taking the dog for a walk, gassing up the ol' truck.

    Exotic or unusual versions that don't fit the profile and/or is done as a "see what I can do and get away with it" is not going to find acceptance here. We are about improving our public relations, not radicalizing our image.

    Does that mean we condemn those that enjoy AK or AR style pistols? Not at all, but a small version EBR is not a fit for what for is considered to be the standard of excellence here.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 06-26-2013 at 11:23 PM.
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    Thank you for the more thoughtful responses.

    That is the reason i come here. I also respect the rules and value the goals.

    I can see a time and a place for when someone who owns an ar/ ak pistol may need to legally carry their pistol in public.

    Besides there are all kind of scenarios where you may have to open carry in a manner that is less than desirable, less than Sunday's best... and still need to be legal.

    We should talk about what that is in our own state.

    I was seeking rcw clarification after seeing those pistols offered on the above link.

    I am not trying to get away with anything. Its law abiding citizens that help prevent getting away.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arentol View Post
    --snipped--

    So the real answer is... Technically the law says you can not OC in a time, place, and manner that warrants alarm, and wtf that means to any given citizen, police officer, prosecuter, jury, or future State Supreme Court is a complete unknown.... In addition, it is fair to assume that, regardless, that size gun will be far more likely to cause all those groups to think it warrants alarm far more often than a smaller handgun.

    So you roll your dice and take your chances every single time you OC in this state, and the bigger the gun, the riskier the bet. (Fortunately though, most of the police in this state are no longer being stupid about this issue so smaller guns are almost no worry at all in practice).
    Quote Originally Posted by standup View Post
    --snipped--

    We should talk about what that is in our own state.

    I was seeking rcw clarification after seeing those pistols offered on the above link.

    I am not trying to get away with anything. Its law abiding citizens that help prevent getting away.
    If someone will provide a cite for arentol's reply - that will give you the best answer you are likely to get as OC is not always will defined.
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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Standup....come to Starbucks on Sundays....there are reasons to have AK or AR pistols that are valid reasons and there are places where it is more prudent to have them in your possession.


    And there is a Bill of Rights Rally July 6th at O'Donnell's Flea Market the old Toyota dealership off of Ellis.
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    Regular Member Schlepnier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    If someone will provide a cite for arentol's reply - that will give you the best answer you are likely to get as OC is not always will defined.
    Actually his quote is a little bit off-
    RCW 9.41.270:
    " It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons."

    Intent is key to this law which is why it is such a poorly written piece of legislation-, see below:


    - What is "Warranting alarm", why do people (firearms instructors, police officers, gun shop employees) say that this law makes it illegal t o open carry? In 1969, RCW 9.41.270 was passed in light of the intimidating actions of the Black Panther Party in both the State of California and in Seattle. Analysis of the legislative intent behind the bill and final law indicated that the Washington State Legislature never intended this to be a gun control bill, and stripped out in committee provisions of the bill which would have prohibited carry within 500 feet of any "public building" for fear it would ensnare a peaceable open carrier walking nearby, thereby violating a persons rights under Article 1, Section 24 of the Washington State Constitution. This is not to say that all forms of open carry are lawful. The key word is "peaceable". If your pistol is in a holster, and you're generally not touching it or making gripping movements (except of course, in an actual act of self defense), or opening a coat to expose your pistol to intimidate someone to do something, then the current body of case law (state v casad, state v. spencer, chan v seattle) generally makes such carry lawful.
    Last edited by Schlepnier; 06-27-2013 at 04:48 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by arentol View Post
    So......... you roll your dice and take your chances every single time you OC ...........
    This is Truth. You roll the dice every time.
    I like SBRs but cannot legally own one in Wa State, so I too, go the rifle platform pistol (AR) but not for my EDC. Grape was spot on when he reffered to.. "This web site is focused on the right to openly carry properly holstered handguns in daily American life." While an AK or AR pistol is decidedly high on the "tacticool" list it is not what is considered "Normal" carry.
    We work very hard to make the EDC of openly carried firearms "normal" again as it was in the past. Standup, come see us on sunday and join in the "Grand Normalization".
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Re: ak pistol oc

    Quote Originally Posted by Schlepnier View Post
    ....then the current body of case law (state v casad, state v. spencer, chan v seattle) generally makes such carry lawful.
    State v Casad isn't published so it doesn't help.
    Chan v Seattle is focused more on preemption and really doesn't flesh out OC much at all.
    State v Spencer is frustrating because while it does basically say OC is definitely legal, it also basically amounts to saying that your OC intent is less important than others perception of your intent. Thus actually reinforcing my point that if others think your manner of carry warrants alarm then you may be in trouble regardless. It also makes it clear that the state believes OC of larger and "scary looking" firearms is less legal than that of smaller "safe looking" firearms.


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    Last edited by arentol; 06-27-2013 at 10:55 AM.

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    One thing here that is very important, the difference between "Warrants" alarm and "Causes" alarm.
    If someone freaks out every time they see a tennis ball, is that a reasonable fear? I would say NO. therefore it is "causing" alarm. On the other hand if that was a reasonable fear, then it could be "Warranting" alarm.
    Big difference.
    Last edited by Trigger Dr; 06-27-2013 at 11:14 AM.

  19. #19
    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    I suggest you read State v. Spencer:

    http://forum.nwcdl.org/index.php?act...a=view;down=25

    It concerns carrying something other than a traditional pistol and in a manner that warrants alarm.
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    Campaign Veteran slapmonkay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    If someone will provide a cite for arentol's reply - that will give you the best answer you are likely to get as OC is not always will defined.
    Quote Originally Posted by RCW 9.41.270
    (1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.
    Court ruling, No. 35333-4-II State v. Casad. (Not Published)
    Quote Originally Posted by Stave v. Casad
    The court found that “several individuals have commented that they would find it strange, maybe shocking, to see a man carrying a gun down the street in broad daylight. Casad’s appellate counsel conceded that she would personally react with shock, but she emphasized that an individual’s lack of comfort with firearms does not equate to reasonable alarm. We Agree. It is not unlawful for a person to responsibly walk down the street with a visible firearm, even if this action would shock some people.
    Court ruling, 101 Wn.2d 259, STATE v. MACIOLEK, the court held:
    Quote Originally Posted by State v. Maciolek
    "If a weapon is displayed in a manner, under circumstances and at a time and place so that it poses a threat to another person, such a display would warrant alarm for the safety of another. Thus, narrowly construing the phrase to apply to only conduct that poses a threat to others gives the phrase a narrow and definite focus and saves it from vagueness."
    Court ruling, 75 Wn. App. 118, State v. Spencer:
    Quote Originally Posted by State v. Spencer
    The court found that the 9.41.270 statue (referenced in Section 9, as its authority), “only prohibits the carrying or displaying of weapons when objective circumstances would warrant alarm in a reasonable person.” Further it states, “the Legislature’s use of the word ‘warrants’ in the statue implies that there must be a sufficient objective basis for the alarm, i.e., circumstances must be such that a reasonable person would be alarmed.
    Last edited by slapmonkay; 06-28-2013 at 01:13 PM.
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    Okay, got it. Franz Kafka situation.

    For the record my edc is a cz75b. I oc everyday.

    I am a part of the grand normalization. I have changed the opinions of my family, friends and co workers.

    I do not own the above mentioned pistol, nor ever intend to edc with one.

    Please understand that asking questions is not acting foolishly or illegally or undermining the purpose of this site.

    Curiosity killed the cat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by standup View Post
    .......I am a part of the grand normalization. I have changed the opinions of my family, friends and co workers.


    Please understand that asking questions is not acting foolishly or illegally or undermining the purpose of this site....
    No question is ever wrong. Unanswered questions can get us all nervous and itchy so ask away mate. You are doing well with family and friends.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Regular Member rapgood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arentol View Post
    Why do I say this? Simple... Because, quite frankly, the written law on OC is vague, and there is almost no case law on the subject, so it remains vague.

    As an example, last I heard anyway, a guy in Vancouver was convicted for OC' ing near a store that had been robbed at gun point the day before. That may be overturned by now, or in the future, but even if it is, he will never get back the years of headaches it caused him.
    I respectfully disagree. I believe that the case law on open carry in Washington (vis-a-vis RCW 9.41.270) is quite clear, as slapmonkey describes briefly above and as I address below. (BTW - The last I checked, Josh's conviction in Vancouver was not overturned. Too bad, and someone please correct me if I'm mistaken. I would have liked to argue that appeal.)

    Quote Originally Posted by arentol View Post
    State v Casad isn't published so it doesn't help.
    Chan v Seattle is focused more on preemption and really doesn't flesh out OC much at all.
    State v Spencer is frustrating because while it does basically say OC is definitely legal, it also basically amounts to saying that your OC intent is less important than others perception of your intent. Thus actually reinforcing my point that if others think your manner of carry warrants alarm then you may be in trouble regardless. It also makes it clear that the state believes OC of larger and "scary looking" firearms is less legal than that of smaller "safe looking" firearms.
    State v. Maciolek actually narrowly constrains what "warrants alarm" means. It's just that many LEOs and a disheartening number of courts just plain don't like the holding in that case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trigger Dr View Post
    One thing here that is very important, the difference between "Warrants" alarm and "Causes" alarm.
    If someone freaks out every time they see a tennis ball, is that a reasonable fear? I would say NO. therefore it is "causing" alarm. On the other hand if that was a reasonable fear, then it could be "Warranting" alarm.
    Big difference.
    Although Casad is an unpublished opinion, the reasoning by that court is instructive. There, the court observed that, and as Casad's attorney argued, seeing someone walking down the street with a rifle might be "shocking," but without more, it doesn't rise to "warranting alarm." This is, essentially, what the Maciolek court held (just not in so many words).

    Quote Originally Posted by slapmonkay View Post
    Court ruling, No. 35333-4-II State v. Casad.
    Stave v. Casad
    The court found that “several individuals have commented that they would find it strange, maybe shocking, to see a man carrying a gun down the street in broad daylight. Casad’s appellate counsel conceded that she would personally react with shock, but she emphasized that an individual’s lack of comfort with firearms does not equate to reasonable alarm. We Agree. It is not unlawful for a person to responsibly walk down the street with a visible firearm, even if this action would shock some people.”
    Court ruling, 101 Wn.2d 259, STATE v. MACIOLEK, the court held:
    State v. Maciolek
    "If a weapon is displayed in a manner, under circumstances and at a time and place so that it poses a threat to another person, such a display would warrant alarm for the safety of another. Thus, narrowly construing the phrase to apply to only conduct that poses a threat to others gives the phrase a narrow and definite focus and saves it from vagueness."
    Court ruling, 75 Wn. App. 118, State v. Spencer (Not Published):
    State v. Spencer
    The court found that the 9.41.270 statue (referenced in Section 9, as its authority), “only prohibits the carrying or displaying of weapons when objective circumstances would warrant alarm in a reasonable person.” Further it states, “the Legislature’s use of the word ‘warrants’ in the statue implies that there must be a sufficient objective basis for the alarm, i.e., circumstances must be such that a reasonable person would be alarmed.”
    (actually, Spencer is a published opinion).

    The case closest to being on point with the open carry of an "assault rifle" is Spencer where Mr. Spencer was walking in a residential neighborhood at night while carrying his rifle in a “hostile, assaultive type manner with the weapon ready.” Similarly, in State v. Baggett, Mr. Baggett held a rifle at hip level, with the barrel pointing toward a police officer (what an idiot). State v. Baggett,103 Wn. App. 564, 566 (2000).
    In both cases, the defendants did something more than merely carry the weapons. I submit that the mere carry of a slung AR pistol, while perhaps shocking to some, is perfectly legal in Washington.

    If the OP gets arrested for merely carrying a slung weapon not in hand, I'll defend him without fee. That said, I discourage it as that type of carry simply invites trouble. Stick to a holstered weapon.

    However, I do believe that this site is the appropriate place to pose the question. We all learn from the dialogue by expanding the scope of our focus in new directions related to the stated forum intent.
    Rev. Robert Apgood, Esq.

    A right cannot be lost by exercising it. McDonald v. Chicago, 561 U.S. 3025, 130 S. Ct. 3020, 3021, 177 L. Ed. 2d 894 (2010) (citing Near v. Minn., 283 U.S. 697 (1931)).

    Although IAAL, anything I say here is not legal advice. No conversations we may have privately or otherwise in this forum constitute the formation of an attorney-client relationship, and are not intended to do so.

  24. #24
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    Campaign Veteran slapmonkay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rapgood View Post
    (actually, Spencer is a published opinion).
    Your right, that was suppose to go next to Casad.
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