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Thread: Just moved to Michigan. Need to register pistols (complicated)

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    Just moved to Michigan. Need to register pistols (complicated)

    Some months back, I recall a thread that discussed the pros/cons of doing the pistol documentation a certain way, i.e. one that would ensure that a proper background check would be done that would satisfy a certain aspect of Michigan law. I forgot exactly which, but I think it had to do with being considered 'licensed to possess a pistol' under one of the Michigan statutes. Now I might have been reading about legislation that was passed that had a provision to 'simplify' the pistol purchase process, yet not signed by the governor, in which case this whole question is moot. Sorry in that event.

    Keep in mind that I don't have a valid CPL from my previous state of residence and I'm at least 6 months away from obtaining a Michigan CPL. I'd still like to OC in the meantime while avoiding running afoul of some obscure provision in the law.

    Thanks,

    David

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Once you're here and have established residency go to your police station, tell them you just moved to MI and that you need X number of Licenses to Purchase, Carry, Possess, or Transport a Pistol (one for each pistol you own).

    Fill out the forms as both seller and purchaser, sign them, and either drop off the required copies to the station where they were issued or mail them back to that same station.

    Bronson
    Last edited by Bronson; 06-27-2013 at 04:27 PM.
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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    The License to purchase, possess, transport and all that crap associated with pistol registration, yes, is gone. Since our new governer, Michigan has actually been moving further away from gun rights under the guise of expanding them. This means that without a CPL, you are subject to the federal gun free school zones act. An out of state CPL will give you all the same rights to OC as you would with a michigan CPL, but no vehicle carry, and no protection against the GFSZA.

    Following the law for 6 months leading up to getting a CPL will suck. If you're moving somewhere other than wayne, you may perhaps experience success going to gun board and asking to have the 6 month period waved "so you don't have to open carry" or some other reasoning. But maybe not too.
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    Regular Member Ezerharden's Avatar
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    Actually the Permit to Purchase is still in effect, the only thing that was really changed was that if you went to an FFL you didn't need to get one from the police beforehand, the FFL will do it. If you buy from a private seller you still need the permit from the police.

    28.422a Individuals not required to obtain license; completion of record by seller; duties of purchaser; noncompliance as state civil infraction; penalty; entering information into pistol entry database; obtaining copy of information; exemption; material false statement as felony; penalty; rules; definitions.
    Sec. 2a.

    (1) The following individuals are not required to obtain a license under section 2 to purchase, carry, possess, use, or transport a pistol:

    (a) An individual licensed under section 5b.

    (b) A federally licensed firearms dealer.

    (c) An individual who purchases a pistol from a federally licensed firearms dealer in compliance with 18 USC 922(t).

    (2) If an individual described in subsection (1) purchases or otherwise acquires a pistol, the seller shall complete a record in triplicate on a form provided by the department of state police. The record shall include the purchaser's concealed weapon license number or, if the purchaser is a federally licensed firearms dealer, his or her dealer license number. If the purchaser is not licensed under section 5b and is not a federally licensed firearms dealer, the record shall include the dealer license number of the federally licensed firearms dealer who is selling the pistol. The purchaser shall sign the record. The seller may retain 1 copy of the record. The purchaser shall receive 2 copies of the record and forward 1 copy to the police department of the city, village, or township in which the purchaser resides, or, if the purchaser does not reside in a city, village, or township having a police department, to the county sheriff, within 10 days following the purchase or acquisition. The return of the copy to the police department or county sheriff may be made in person or may be made by first-class mail or certified mail sent within the 10-day period to the proper address of the police department or county sheriff. A purchaser who fails to comply with the requirements of this subsection is responsible for a state civil infraction and may be fined not more than $250.00. If a purchaser is found responsible for a state civil infraction under this subsection, the court shall notify the department of state police. If the purchaser is licensed under section 5b, the court shall notify the licensing authority of that determination.

    (3) Within 10 days after receiving the record copy returned under subsection (2), the police department or county sheriff shall electronically enter the information into the pistol entry database as required by the department of state police if it has the ability to electronically enter that information. If the police department or county sheriff does not have that ability, the police department or county sheriff shall provide that information to the department of state police in a manner otherwise required by the department of state police. Any police department or county sheriff that provided pistol descriptions to the department of state police under former section 9 of this act shall continue to provide pistol descriptions to the department of state police under this subsection. Within 48 hours after entering or otherwise providing the information on the record copy returned under subsection (2) to the department of state police, the police department or county sheriff shall forward the copy of the record to the department of state police. The purchaser has the right to obtain a copy of the information placed in the pistol entry database under this subsection to verify the accuracy of that information. The police department or county sheriff may charge a fee not to exceed $1.00 for the cost of providing the copy. The purchaser may carry, use, possess, and transport the pistol for 30 days beginning on the date of purchase or acquisition only while he or she is in possession of his or her copy of the record. However, the person is not required to have the record in his or her possession while carrying, using, possessing, or transporting the pistol after this period.
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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Just moved to Michigan. Need to register pistols (complicated)

    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    The License to purchase, possess, transport and all that crap associated with pistol registration, yes, is gone. Since our new governer, Michigan has actually been moving further away from gun rights under the guise of expanding them. This means that without a CPL, you are subject to the federal gun free school zones act. An out of state CPL will give you all the same rights to OC as you would with a michigan CPL, but no vehicle carry, and no protection against the GFSZA.

    Following the law for 6 months leading up to getting a CPL will suck. If you're moving somewhere other than wayne, you may perhaps experience success going to gun board and asking to have the 6 month period waved "so you don't have to open carry" or some other reasoning. But maybe not too.
    Bad advise and completely inaccurate... This could get someone in a ton of trouble. Ezhardens and Bronsons posts are the ones to pay attention too.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

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    Ok, my memory has been jogged a bit. Is there any advantage to going through an FFL (with possible extra hassle/expense) than doing everything through the local Sheriff's office?

    Again, I seem to remember some discussion somewhere about it being important that a background check being done (which I presume the FFL will do), then again that discussion that I'm half-remembering might have been associated with proposed legislation that never made it into law.

  7. #7
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Just moved to Michigan. Need to register pistols (complicated)

    Quote Originally Posted by OC4me View Post
    Ok, my memory has been jogged a bit. Is there any advantage to going through an FFL (with possible extra hassle/expense) than doing everything through the local Sheriff's office?

    Again, I seem to remember some discussion somewhere about it being important that a background check being done (which I presume the FFL will do), then again that discussion that I'm half-remembering might have been associated with proposed legislation that never made it into law.
    There is no reason to involve an FFL. Just get the blasted purchase permits and fill em out and mail in the Leo copies. Pretty simple stop over thinking this lol!
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    The License to purchase, possess, transport and all that crap associated with pistol registration, yes, is gone. Since our new governer, Michigan has actually been moving further away from gun rights under the guise of expanding them. This means that without a CPL, you are subject to the federal gun free school zones act. An out of state CPL will give you all the same rights to OC as you would with a michigan CPL, but no vehicle carry, and no protection against the GFSZA.

    Following the law for 6 months leading up to getting a CPL will suck. If you're moving somewhere other than wayne, you may perhaps experience success going to gun board and asking to have the 6 month period waved "so you don't have to open carry" or some other reasoning. But maybe not too.
    What in the H-E-Double hockey sticks are you talking about?
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
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    Re: Just moved to Michigan. Need to register pistols (complicated)

    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    What in the H-E-Double hockey sticks are you talking about?
    I think he's saying that, in his reading of the law, the changes made to the License to purchase, carry, possess, or transport a pistol have eliminated its use as an exception to the Federal Gun Free Zones Act. Also, he believes that since there is a 6 month wait after establishing residency before a person can apply for a CPL, a person is only able to open carry. If a person has a license to conceal a pistol from another state and they have established residency in Michigan, the person is exempt from MCL 750.234d, but may not conceal (transport as a person without a CPL does) and is subject to the Federal Gun Free Zones Act.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    . . . the changes made to the License to purchase, carry, possess, or transport a pistol have eliminated its use as an exception to the Federal Gun Free Zones Act . . .
    Bingo! I think that might be it! So if the above happens to be the case, I believe I recall that the exemption was still valid if the background check was either performed through an FFL or the Sheriff's office, I just can't remember which. If I remember correctly now, there was some legal (hair-splitting) rational behind it in the FGFZA statute.
    Last edited by OC4me; 07-01-2013 at 09:22 AM.

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC4me View Post
    Bingo! I think that might be it! So if the above happens to be the case, I believe I recall that the exemption was still valid if the background check was either performed through an FFL or the Sheriff's office, I just can't remember which. If I remember correctly now, there was some legal (hair-splitting) rational behind it in the FGFZA statute.
    You can't just go to an FFL and have them perform a NICS check for guns you already own....that route is only for people that are purchasing the gun(s) through the FFL.

    In your situation, i.e., you already own the guns you'll need to go through the police dept....like has already been written.

    You're making this way more difficult than it needs to be.

    Bronson
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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Re: Just moved to Michigan. Need to register pistols (complicated)

    Quote Originally Posted by OC4me View Post
    Bingo! I think that might be it! So if the above happens to be the case, I believe I recall that the exemption was still valid if the background check was either performed through an FFL or the Sheriff's office, I just can't remember which. If I remember correctly now, there was some legal (hair-splitting) rational behind it in the FGFZA statute.
    As Bronson stated this is wrong an FFL has no bearing on guns you already own or private sales. Both of these require a purchase permit from any MI police agency. Note not all do them and not all realize yet that you can get a PP from any police agency that processes them.

    It would have been better had Michigander not posted that train wreck of a post as it has only served to confuse the OP.

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    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    While people will argue this to the core, they are wrong.

    If you are a U.S. Citizen with a license to carry (issues by ANY state outside of Michigan). You are exempt from registration as per M.C.L. 28.432(f).

    People will scare you about legislative intent but the Supreme Court said they can't use that against you due to the Rule of Lenity.

    Rule of Lenity: In construing an ambiguous criminal statute, the court should resolve the ambiguity in favor of the defendant. See McNally v. United States, 483 U.S. 350 (1987)

    All that being said, I would recommend getting at least one purchase permit and completing that process so you are exempt from the federal gun free schools act.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    The License to purchase, possess, transport and all that crap associated with pistol registration, yes, is gone. Since our new governer, Michigan has actually been moving further away from gun rights under the guise of expanding them. This means that without a CPL, you are subject to the federal gun free school zones act. An out of state CPL will give you all the same rights to OC as you would with a michigan CPL, but no vehicle carry, and no protection against the GFSZA.

    Following the law for 6 months leading up to getting a CPL will suck. If you're moving somewhere other than wayne, you may perhaps experience success going to gun board and asking to have the 6 month period waved "so you don't have to open carry" or some other reasoning. But maybe not too.

    When I moved to MI, I moved to Wayne county. I immediately applied for a CPL, the 6 month window was never mentioned and I was issued a license without issue (other then it being lost in the mail).

    I don't think they enforce the 6 month thing. They obviously do not in Wayne Co.
    Last edited by Jared; 07-05-2013 at 02:47 PM.

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    Regular Member Mosnar87's Avatar
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    Re: Just moved to Michigan. Need to register pistols (complicated)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jared View Post
    When I moved to MI, I moved to Wayne county. I immediately applied for a CPL, the 6 month window was never mentioned and I was issued a license without issue (other then it being lost in the mail).

    I don't think they enforce the 6 month thing. They obviously do not in Wayne Co.
    Did you have a CPL or equivalent in your previous state of residence?

    One of the exceptions to the 6 month waiting period is (at the gun boards discretion) the option to waive the waiting period for those with a CPL in their previous state of residence.

    I used this exception myself when I returned to MI from OK.

    ETA; Relevant section of MCL is MCL28.425b (7) (b)
    http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-28-425b

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    Last edited by Mosnar87; 07-06-2013 at 03:14 AM. Reason: Added Cite.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mosnar87 View Post
    Did you have a CPL or equivalent in your previous state of residence?

    One of the exceptions to the 6 month waiting period is (at the gun boards discretion) the option to waive the waiting period for those with a CPL in their previous state of residence.

    I used this exception myself when I returned to MI from OK.

    ETA; Relevant section of MCL is MCL28.425b (7) (b)
    http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-28-425b

    Sent from my Samsung Galaxy IIIs using Tapatalk 2.
    No, they never asked what other licenses I had, there was no spot on the application for that. I just don't think they checked or care to. The 6 month rule makes no sense anyway. Anothdf stupid law passss by a bunch of overpaid morons in Lansing.

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    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jared View Post
    While people will argue this to the core, they are wrong.

    If you are a U.S. Citizen with a license to carry (issues by ANY state outside of Michigan). You are exempt from registration as per M.C.L. 28.432(f).

    People will scare you about legislative intent but the Supreme Court said they can't use that against you due to the Rule of Lenity.

    Rule of Lenity: In construing an ambiguous criminal statute, the court should resolve the ambiguity in favor of the defendant. See McNally v. United States, 483 U.S. 350 (1987)

    All that being said, I would recommend getting at least one purchase permit and completing that process so you are exempt from the federal gun free schools act.
    If you're a resident of Michigan, ALL of your handguns (meaning modern firearms, not black powder, cap and ball, and/or flintlocks) have to be registered. With or without a CPL.
    Last edited by Big Gay Al; 07-07-2013 at 08:51 PM.
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  18. #18
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Just moved to Michigan. Need to register pistols (complicated)

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Gay Al View Post
    If you're a resident of Michigan, ALL of your handguns have to be registered. With or without a CPL.
    I think you're missing the point if what Jared is saying.

    Can you cite the law for your claim?
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Regular Member Elm Creek Smith's Avatar
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    Re: Just moved to Michigan. Need to register pistols (complicated)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mosnar87 View Post
    I used this exception myself when I returned to MI from Oklahoma.
    Why would you leave Oklahoma?

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    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    I think you're missing the point if what Jared is saying.

    Can you cite the law for your claim?
    Tell me the last time you didn't have to fill out an RI-60 when buying a handgun? The registration wasn't eliminated, only the so-called "safety inspection."

    And with certain exceptions, it's all listed in HB5225 also known as Public Act 377 of 2012

    ENROLLED HOUSE BILL No. 5225
    AN ACT to amend 1927 PA 372, entitled “An act to regulate and license the selling, purchasing, possessing, and
    carrying of certain firearms, gas ejecting devices, and electro-muscular disruption devices; to prohibit the buying,
    selling, or carrying of certain firearms, gas ejecting devices, and electro-muscular disruption devices without a license
    or other authorization; to provide for the forfeiture of firearms and electro-muscular disruption devices under certain
    circumstances; to provide for penalties and remedies; to provide immunity from civil liability under certain circumstances;
    to prescribe the powers and duties of certain state and local agencies; to prohibit certain conduct against individuals
    who apply for or receive a license to carry a concealed pistol; to make appropriations; to prescribe certain conditions for
    the appropriations; and to repeal all acts and parts of acts inconsistent with this act,” by amending sections 2 and 2a
    (MCL 28.422 and 28.422a), section 2 as amended by 2010 PA 20 and section 2a as amended by 2010 PA 210; and to repeal
    acts and parts of acts.
    The People of the State of Michigan enact:
    Sec. 2. (1) Except as otherwise provided in this act, a person shall not purchase, carry, possess, or transport a pistol
    in this state without first having obtained a license for the pistol as prescribed in this section.
    (2) A person who brings a pistol into this state who is on leave from active duty with the armed forces of the United
    States or who has been discharged from active duty with the armed forces of the United States shall obtain a license
    for the pistol within 30 days after his or her arrival in this state.
    (3) The commissioner or chief of police of a city, township, or village police department that issues licenses to
    purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistols, or his or her duly authorized deputy, or the sheriff or his or her duly
    authorized deputy, in the parts of a county not included within a city, township, or village having an organized police
    department, in discharging the duty to issue licenses shall with due speed and diligence issue licenses to purchase, carry,
    possess, or transport pistols to qualified applicants unless he or she has probable cause to believe that the applicant
    would be a threat to himself or herself or to other individuals, or would commit an offense with the pistol that would
    violate a law of this or another state or of the United States. An applicant is qualified if all of the following circumstances
    exist:
    (a) The person is not subject to an order or disposition for which he or she has received notice and an opportunity
    for a hearing, and which was entered into the law enforcement information network under any of the following:
    (i) Section 464a of the mental health code, 1974 PA 258, MCL 330.1464a.

    (7) This section does not apply to the purchase of pistols from wholesalers by dealers regularly engaged in the
    business of selling pistols at retail, or to the sale, barter, or exchange of pistols kept as relics or curios not made for
    modern ammunition or permanently deactivated. This section does not prevent the transfer of ownership of pistols that
    are inherited if the license to purchase is approved by the commissioner or chief of police, sheriff, or their authorized
    deputies, and signed by the personal representative of the estate or by the next of kin having authority to dispose of
    the pistol.
    (8) An individual who is not a resident of this state is not required to obtain a license under this section if all of the
    following conditions apply:
    (a) The individual is licensed in his or her state of residence to purchase, carry, or transport a pistol.
    (b) The individual is in possession of the license described in subdivision (a).
    (c) The individual is the owner of the pistol he or she possesses, carries, or transports.
    (d) The individual possesses the pistol for a lawful purpose as that term is defined in section 231a of the Michigan
    penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.231a.
    (e) The individual is in this state for a period of 180 days or less and does not intend to establish residency in this
    state.
    (9) An individual who is a nonresident of this state shall present the license described in subsection (8)(a) upon the
    demand of a police officer. An individual who violates this subsection is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by
    imprisonment for not more than 90 days or a fine of not more than $100.00, or both.
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  21. #21
    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elm Creek Smith View Post
    Why would you leave Oklahoma?

    ECS


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  22. #22
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Just moved to Michigan. Need to register pistols (complicated)

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Gay Al View Post
    Tell me the last time you didn't have to fill out an RI-60 when buying a handgun? The registration wasn't eliminated, only the so-called "safety inspection."

    And with certain exceptions, it's all listed in HB5225 also known as Public Act 377 of 2012
    I don't have a foreign CPL. See MCL 28.432(f). Ergo I have to register.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Gay Al View Post
    And with certain exceptions, it's all listed in HB5225 also known as Public Act 377 of 2012
    But, but the strict letter of the lasw, 28.422 (the law requiring a PP & registration) is rendered null if you meet any of the requirements listed in 28.432.

    28.432 Inapplicability of MCL 28.422; amendatory act as "Janet Kukuk act".

    Sec. 12.


    (1) Section 2 does not apply to any of the following:
    "Section 2" is 28.422 in its entirety.

    So if you meet one of the qualifiers in 28.432 you are exempt, completely, from 28.422.

    It just so happens that sub-heading (f) in 28.432 is:

    (f) A United States citizen holding a license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by another state.
    So what Jared is getting at is that by the strict wording of the law if ANY U.S. citizen has a license to carry a concealed pistol issued by ANY other state then they would be exempt from the entire MI PP/registration scheme. Notice it doesn't say "state of residence" but simply "another state." That's the kicker.

    I'm too poor to be the test case on that one.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

  24. #24
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    So what Jared is getting at is that by the strict wording of the law if ANY U.S. citizen has a license to carry a concealed pistol issued by ANY other state then they would be exempt from the entire MI PP/registration scheme. Notice it doesn't say "state of residence" but simply "another state." That's the kicker.

    I'm too poor to be the test case on that one.

    Bronson
    No more of a legal stretch than OC in a PFZ with a CPL...
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  25. #25
    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    But, but the strict letter of the lasw, 28.422 (the law requiring a PP & registration) is rendered null if you meet any of the requirements listed in 28.432.



    "Section 2" is 28.422 in its entirety.

    So if you meet one of the qualifiers in 28.432 you are exempt, completely, from 28.422.

    It just so happens that sub-heading (f) in 28.432 is:



    So what Jared is getting at is that by the strict wording of the law if ANY U.S. citizen has a license to carry a concealed pistol issued by ANY other state then they would be exempt from the entire MI PP/registration scheme. Notice it doesn't say "state of residence" but simply "another state." That's the kicker.

    I'm too poor to be the test case on that one.

    Bronson
    Yeah, that's the problem. I'm sure certain county prosecutors would be happy to get someone trying to utilize that statement. And I'm too poor as well to test it.
    Big Gay Al
    Coordinator, Michigan Pink Pistols
    Big Gay Al's Big Gay (Gun) Blog
    Fabrique Nationale d'Herstal FNX-45 .45ACP 16 rounds of hurt.

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