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Thread: Because enquiring minds want to know

  1. #1
    Regular Member Yooper's Avatar
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    Because enquiring minds want to know

    Quick question that I think I know the answer to, but want the educated guesses of the masses to confirm...

    If 1 person in a vehicle (driver) has a CPL, and the gun is on the dash/under the drivers seat/ in the center console. Does that person need to either take it with them, or lock it up prior to leaving the vehicle?

    Example: I have a CPL, wife doesn't, kids don't (obviously). Stop to get gas, pistol is under the seat. By stepping out of the car, is there a crime by those in the car of having a loaded, uncased firearm in the vehicle?
    Rand Paul 2016

  2. #2
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    Yup.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Yooper's Avatar
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    Thanks, that's what I figured, just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing any kind of AG opinion or something to the contrary.
    Rand Paul 2016

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Because enquiring minds want to know

    That's a complicated question. Do they have possession?

    Possession (as told by lawyers on MGO) requires knowledge of the gun's presence and ability to exercise dominion over the firearm. If they don't know the gun is there, it could be argued they don't have possession.

    Of course, the safest course (legally) is to not have the gun there when you're not in the vehicle and they are.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by casper View Post
    Yup.
    What would the charge(s) be for the occupants of the vehicle?

    TIA

    CCJ

  6. #6
    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    If you get out of the car and shut the door, you being the firearm owner have surrendered control of the gun, and can not prevent others from accessing it. Of course if you were in the car and the gun was under the seat or in the console, a passenger could still reach for it if they knew it was there.

    It's an attempt to define ownership, prevent unauthorized use, or what have you, and it's really almost useless to define it as a crime because it's a 'non-event', it's just sitting there.

    I would imagine that the person charged would not be the people in the car who may or may not know about it, but you the owner of the gun, the owner of the permit.

    IANAL, and I'm not sure even a lawyer could answer this but the main thing is that you lose control of it being outside the car. Now if the people inside knew about it and locked the doors, preventing you from getting it there could be a chance both you and the passengers would be arrested IF a LEO came on the scene and knew the fact.

    Truth is, though, how likely is it that you pull up for gas, get out leaving the door open, pump the gas with a CC and then get back in and drive away?

    Therefore, avoid leaving it behind in the car while you are elsewhere. Common sense approach.

    Contrast this if you were driving and alone and you had the gun in the console or under the seat and got out - would the gun now be illegal because it was separated from its owner? Your passenger who doesn't know about it, gets in the car and suddenly it's a crime? It's crazy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    That's a complicated question. Do they have possession?

    Possession (as told by lawyers on MGO) requires knowledge of the gun's presence and ability to exercise dominion over the firearm. If they don't know the gun is there, it could be argued they don't have possession.

    Of course, the safest course (legally) is to not have the gun there when you're not in the vehicle and they are.

    This is the most correct answer.

    If I left a gun in my car and my wife decided to take it to the store real quick - unless she KNOWS it's there AND can access it, she's not in possession of the gun, legally speaking.

    If, say, she KNEW about it but it was in a lockbox she didn't have a key for - she does not possess it.
    If she DIDNT KNOW about it and it was wide open sitting in the glove box, she does not possess it.

    Fortunately, I have a wife that has a CPL.

  8. #8
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    See

    National Safe Deposit Co. v Stead (1914)

    US v Nenadich (1988)

    US v DeRose ( 1996)

    CCJ

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Re: Because enquiring minds want to know

    The good news is one day soon (hopefully) MI will have some sort of constitutional carry, in addition to a cpl, thus making your worries a thing of the past. Viva freedom! Viva Michigan...you can do it! You can do it!
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZ2HcRl4wSk
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    "You must be the change you wish to see in the world" by Mahatma Gandhi

    “Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values. Your values become your destiny.” by Mahatma Gandhi

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    Regular Member Ezerharden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    The good news is one day soon (hopefully) MI will have some sort of constitutional carry, in addition to a cpl, thus making your worries a thing of the past. Viva freedom! Viva Michigan...you can do it! You can do it!
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZ2HcRl4wSk
    Would "soon" be measured in months, years, decades or centuries? At the rate the current Michigan .gov is moving, I am betting between decades and centuries.
    Want to keep informed of Open Carry events in your area? Go to www.miopencarry.org/update

    I carry a gun because a Police Officer is too heavy.

    For Drama free gun rights discussion, see http://forums.michiganopencarry.org/

  11. #11
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Because enquiring minds want to know

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezerharden View Post
    Would "soon" be measured in months, years, decades or centuries? At the rate the current Michigan .gov is moving, I am betting between decades and centuries.
    My bet: nothing of consequence pro-gun happens until at least 2018 =\
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  12. #12
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Re: Because enquiring minds want to know

    Well let's hope sooner is no more than a year or two. In 5 years AZ went from some really stupid CCW (CPL) laws to much better ones and constitutional carry. Why? Some had to do with culture, but most had to do with a small group of rights advocates called AZCDL. Today they have over 9,000 paying members, and have aa huge influence in the capital building. I see no reason why MI cannot flow this path. A single large group could get huge things done in Lansing. One group moving in unity, simple if we could just stop the bickering long enough to pull it off.
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    "You must be the change you wish to see in the world" by Mahatma Gandhi

    “Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values. Your values become your destiny.” by Mahatma Gandhi

  13. #13
    Regular Member Ezerharden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    My bet: nothing of consequence pro-gun happens until at least 2018 =\
    That soon? I was thinking more like 2050.
    Want to keep informed of Open Carry events in your area? Go to www.miopencarry.org/update

    I carry a gun because a Police Officer is too heavy.

    For Drama free gun rights discussion, see http://forums.michiganopencarry.org/

  14. #14
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Re: Because enquiring minds want to know

    Well let's hope both your and the Q's guesses are off. Think about it this way? If a NEW super group got together via coalition, or other means. Say their numbers reach 5,000 @ $30 per year = $150,000 not counting other fund raisers (raffles, etc...). That buys a lot of sway in a capital. Friends money talks! The rest is just static to law-makers who are often more concerned with raising $ instead of doing their duty to follow the will of the people.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "You must be the change you wish to see in the world" by Mahatma Gandhi

    “Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values. Your values become your destiny.” by Mahatma Gandhi

  15. #15
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Because enquiring minds want to know

    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    Well let's hope both your and the Q's guesses are off. Think about it this way? If a NEW super group got together via coalition, or other means. Say their numbers reach 5,000 @ $30 per year = $150,000 not counting other fund raisers (raffles, etc...). That buys a lot of sway in a capital. Friends money talks! The rest is just static to law-makers who are often more concerned with raising $ instead of doing their duty to follow the will of the people.
    Once Snyder is reelected, he will have no motivation to do anything pro-gun as he will be term limited out. Even a coalition of 3 million wouldn't matter.
    Last edited by TheQ; 06-30-2013 at 02:15 PM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  16. #16
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Re: Because enquiring minds want to know

    So just give up - is the message? Here in AZ the effort was not only lobbying, it was public messaging also. Guns save lives bill boards, public outreach programs, etc..etc... it's real easy to say what cannot be done. Others have faced very similar barriers in other states and won. So IMHO, there is no reason MI can't. The only thing truly stopping the people of MI are, the people of MI.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "You must be the change you wish to see in the world" by Mahatma Gandhi

    “Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values. Your values become your destiny.” by Mahatma Gandhi

  17. #17
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Re: Because enquiring minds want to know

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezerharden View Post
    That soon? I was thinking more like 2050.
    I'm with you, Ezerharden.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Once Snyder is reelected
    I don't think that'll happen.

  19. #19
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Re: Because enquiring minds want to know

    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Once Snyder is reelected, he will have no motivation to do anything pro-gun as he will be term limited out. Even a coalition of 3 million wouldn't matter.
    Is he motivated now? In fact, taking his comments when he vetoed SB 59 regarding his time as an RA, I wouldn't be surprised if he supports some "anti" legislation that on some off chance gets to his desk.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  20. #20
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Because enquiring minds want to know

    Quote Originally Posted by zigziggityzoo View Post
    I don't think that'll happen.
    I don't see the favored Democrat being any better for gun owners.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  21. #21
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Because enquiring minds want to know

    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    Is he motivated now? In fact, taking his comments when he vetoed SB 59 regarding his time as an RA, I wouldn't be surprised if he supports some "anti" legislation that on some off chance gets to his desk.
    This next election cycle doesn't hold anything promising for gun owners regarding governor in the R or D camp. If by some odd chance a Libertarian Party person gets elected -- well!...we may have a ballgame then!
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    I don't see the favored Democrat being any better for gun owners.

    True, but there's no chance he'll get much of the indy/Undy vote after RTW.
    Last edited by zigziggityzoo; 07-01-2013 at 04:34 PM.

  23. #23
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Because enquiring minds want to know

    Quote Originally Posted by zigziggityzoo View Post
    True, but there's no chance he'll get much of the indy/Undy vote after RTW.
    Agreed. Many union folk are also gun owners. It's sad he won't take the chance he has to secure the vote of gun owners.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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