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Thread: Illegal Seizure of Firearm by SHP

  1. #1
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    Illegal Seizure of Firearm by SHP

    Hello All,

    It's been a while since I've been on here, so I figured I would start trying to catch up on all of the latest in the community. As I was reading another posting, (http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...izure-question) regarding a potential illegal seizure, it brought back to memory an incident I had a few years ago, when I first found this site and began newly OC'ing (back when my knowledge base of gun laws was very "green"). Anyway, I had just purchased a BMW SUV that I had transported from FL to NC. Myself and my business partner were dressed in suits, and traveling on 440, here in Raleigh. I was on my way to get tags for the vehicle, so I had the license plate from my other vehicle on this car, as advised to do by my insurance company.

    As I was traveling on 440, I was in the left (inner) lane, traveling at a fairly good pace. I came up on an unmarked SHP in the lane to my right, so I slowed down. He got hung up behind another car, so I was able to keep going, traveling the speed limit, moving out in front of him. All of sudden, he jumped in behind me, and I told my partner "I'm getting ready to get pulled." Sure enough, after about a mile, the blue lights came on. As he walked up to the vehicle, I had already placed my holstered firearm in the left corner of the dash. It was obviously clearly in view, as he stopped abruptly, put his hand on his gun, took a defensive position, and yelled "keep your hands on the wheel and do not move." Again, we're two guys wearing suits, driving a BMW...not your typical thug or gang banger attire.

    He gets to the window, and says "do not make any sudden moves, and do not move your hands." I politely said "I won't."

    He says "do you know why I pulled you?" I said, well I wasn't speeding, so I'm assuming because of my tag (which, at the time I didn't think about that being a little odd). Why would he randomly run my tags as I drove past him, doing the speed limit?

    Anyway, I advised him of the situation with the new vehicle, and I advised him that I had all of the paperwork, and that I was headed to the DMV to get a new license plate. I had the bill of sale, title, etc, which I offered to show him, to prove the vehicle was indeed mine.

    He then asked for my license, which I provided. He then advised me that he was going to remove the weapon "for his safety, and not to make any sudden moves."

    I said "ok", not knowing any better, and advised him that I carry in condition one, and to please be careful. Once he had possession of my firearm, he asked for my permit. I looked at him puzzled and advised him that I didn't have a CHP permit, and furthermore it was legal to open carry in NC. He balked back and said "sir you're wrong, I need to see your permit."

    I again corrected him, and informed him that he was the one that was wrong. He then told me he would be back in minute. Keep in mind too, this was an SHP Sergeant!

    When he came back, he had my gun (Springfield XD sub) in 3 parts (slide, frame and mag). He said "hold your hand out," to which he proceeded to drop 16 hollow point rounds into my hand. He then took the slide, and placed it on the rear floorboard of the vehicle, and tossed (not placed) the frame into the backseat. He then, again, asked to see my permit. I again attempted to correct him, several times to no avail.

    I finally said, "look, in order to purchase a handgun, without a CHP, you must have a purchase permit. Once you purchase the firearm, the FFL keeps the purchase permit, and there's not permit required to OC."

    He then said "sir you don't know what you're talking about, but from here on out, you should carry the receipt to have proof of the purchase."

    I of course sighed, and said "officer I'm not required by law to do that either."

    He then said, "well if you have the receipt with you, next time maybe you won't have to go through this, and have your gun run to make sure it isn't stolen."

    At this point, I was really frustrated, as I needed to get back on the road or else I was going to be late for an extremely important meeting. He then, of course, handed me a citation, and told me that I "was not to reach for the gun," and that he was going to drive away first, and once he was out of site, that I could again have access to my firearm...

    Thoughts? Again, be easy, as I had just began to carry, and this was my first encounter with LEO while carrying. Knowing what I know now, I would've handled the situation completely different...

  2. #2
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    You obviously know the drill now and this occured too far back to do anything about it so what is the point?

    Strange - you said you driving at the speed limit, yet he have you a citation...for what?
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member XD40sc's Avatar
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    You have his information (on the citation) and you must contact his supervisors about his ignorance of the law.

    You should have the actual statute to quote when you make the call. This is inexcusable for what is supposed to be our elite LEO force in NC. I could understand if this was some po-dunk-ville city kitty or reserve deputy, but a NC Trooper

    Or perhaps instead of carrying the bill of sale, print out the law and stick it in the glove box to hand to him, in case you get to chat with that idiot again.

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    I wonder what good the 2nd amendment is if the gov't, which is the reason why we have the 2nd amendment, can just ask you to hand it over ...

  5. #5
    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ItsMyRight2Carry View Post
    I said "ok", not knowing any better, and advised him that I carry in condition one, and to please be careful. Once he had possession of my firearm, he asked for my permit. I looked at him puzzled and advised him that I didn't have a CHP permit, and furthermore it was legal to open carry in NC. He balked back and said "sir you're wrong, I need to see your permit."

    I again corrected him, and informed him that he was the one that was wrong. He then told me he would be back in minute. Keep in mind too, this was an SHP Sergeant!

    When he came back, he had my gun (Springfield XD sub) in 3 parts (slide, frame and mag). He said "hold your hand out," to which he proceeded to drop 16 hollow point rounds into my hand. He then took the slide, and placed it on the rear floorboard of the vehicle, and tossed (not placed) the frame into the backseat. He then, again, asked to see my permit. I again attempted to correct him, several times to no avail.

    I finally said, "look, in order to purchase a handgun, without a CHP, you must have a purchase permit. Once you purchase the firearm, the FFL keeps the purchase permit, and there's not permit required to OC."

    He then said "sir you don't know what you're talking about, but from here on out, you should carry the receipt to have proof of the purchase."

    I of course sighed, and said "officer I'm not required by law to do that either."

    He then said, "well if you have the receipt with you, next time maybe you won't have to go through this, and have your gun run to make sure it isn't stolen."

    At this point, I was really frustrated, as I needed to get back on the road or else I was going to be late for an extremely important meeting. He then, of course, handed me a citation, and told me that I "was not to reach for the gun," and that he was going to drive away first, and once he was out of site, that I could again have access to my firearm...
    My first thoughts are pretty simple...this trooper should seek another line of work. He is sadly mistaken about the law, but even if we work with his misunderstanding, he was going to leave you with a weapon that he was certain it was illegal for you to have with you in the manner that you had it? This is like letting a drunk driver drive home...if it wasn't for his ignorance... (*shakes head*) ... grr...
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

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    He "can" take your gun for officer safety, well within his rights. Now running your serial numbers is NOT. That is a illegal search. He needs a warrant or PC. Contact his supervisor and feel things out. File a complaint against him. Talk to a lawyer.

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    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by muccione View Post
    He "can" take your gun for officer safety, well within his rights. Now running your serial numbers is NOT. That is a illegal search. He needs a warrant or PC. Contact his supervisor and feel things out. File a complaint against him. Talk to a lawyer.

    Well...remember, the OP did say this was a few years ago...so this is an "older and wiser now" kinda post.
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

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    Yea, the point of my post was more for informative purposes, so that some of the newbies that read about my experience may learn something. The citation was for some BS improper plates or something. Had to go waste half a day in the Wake County courthouse, just to show evidence to the DA that I had proper plates and registration. It was dismissed, of course.

    Thanks for the input guys!

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    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
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    all of my encounters with the NCHP, have been when the subject of carry, has been, "eh, don't really care".

    had one one time, when i handed him my CHP (technically it was concealed), he said he thought it was ridiculous to have a CHP and not carry
    Luke 22:36 ; 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

    "guns are like a Parachute, if you don't have one when you need it, you will not need one again"
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    i you call a CHP a CCW then you are really stupid. period.

  10. #10
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    This is the first problem I have heard of with the state police. I have been stopped by the DOT division of state police and they have never said a word about my firearm. They can take it for safety, and there is little doubt they will run the numbers. I would have left it on my hip instead placing it on the dash, but that is my decision. Everybody else has to decide how they would handle it.
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    Regular Member Vwfinatic273's Avatar
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    ********

    That is ridiculous. Don't ever let them take or touch your firearm it is against your fourth ammendment as well. Constitutional education goes further than the obvious second ammendment laws he violated of yours. If that was a few years ago it's too late to file a complaint however he knew what he was doing was questionable because he disassembled your firearm and let you go. If he was so sure you were breaking the law he would have arrested you!

  12. #12
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vwfinatic273 View Post
    That is ridiculous. Don't ever let them take or touch your firearm it is against your fourth ammendment as well. Constitutional education goes further than the obvious second ammendment laws he violated of yours. If that was a few years ago it's too late to file a complaint however he knew what he was doing was questionable because he disassembled your firearm and let you go. If he was so sure you were breaking the law he would have arrested you!
    Sound like you are advocating physical resistance - that would be ill advised.

    Holding court on the street will also have little benefit. There are better ways.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member BroadwayJoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    There are better ways.
    Just curious what other ways or how you could politely deny them from taking it?

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Sound like you are advocating physical resistance - that would be ill advised.

    Holding court on the street will also have little benefit. There are better ways.
    Quote Originally Posted by BroadwayJoe View Post
    Just curious what other ways or how you could politely deny them from taking it?
    "Better ways" refers to the preceding sentence regarding not holding court in the street. If the officer determines that you are physically resisting him, you will likely get shiny wrist jewelery and beans n' green wienies for breakfast.

    Highly recommend a good digital recorder running 100% of the time you are away from home.

    Inform (not deny) the officer that w/o a warrant you do not consent to any search of yourself or property, nor consent to any seizure thereof. If he proceeds, I will go through optional steps as my attorney directs......after the fact.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 07-03-2013 at 10:55 PM.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member BroadwayJoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Highly recommend a good digital recorder running 100% of the time you are away from home..
    100% of the time? Curious as to why not just a turn on a when needed/encountered situation.

    I have been looking at a dash cam for the car, there are some really cost effective options out there. Currently, I have my cell phone ready for video record when driving, but nothing as far as a personal device really. Do you recommend video or audio for a personal device? I assume video would not only be expensive, but would also eat up storage and battery.

  16. #16
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroadwayJoe View Post
    100% of the time? Curious as to why not just a turn on a when needed/encountered situation.

    I have been looking at a dash cam for the car, there are some really cost effective options out there. Currently, I have my cell phone ready for video record when driving, but nothing as far as a personal device really. Do you recommend video or audio for a personal device? I assume video would not only be expensive, but would also eat up storage and battery.
    There is no time delay or needing to have hands free if the recorder is already running - no "wait a second while I turn my recorder on."

    Cheap Chinese dash cams available for $20.00 - they work. If I am in or about my vehicle, the cam is running.
    Note: You can pay $98.00 for the same, exact unit if that makes you feel better
    http://compare.ebay.com/like/1810679...Types&var=sbar

    Daily carry (on person) of a full time cam is IMO impractical.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 07-06-2013 at 05:46 AM.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Ricky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by papa bear View Post
    all of my encounters with the NCHP, have been when the subject of carry, has been, "eh, don't really care".

    had one one time, when i handed him my CHP (technically it was concealed), he said he thought it was ridiculous to have a CHP and not carry
    Same here papa bear. While I was stopped for a tag violation( had new sticker in dash) a SHP approached and I stated I had my firearm on my right side and would need to reach there to unlatch my seat beat in order to retrieve my wallet. Very professional and never even bothered him as he said 'that's fine just leave it there". Came back to car handed me my license and casually said have a nice day...Great encounter

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    Quote Originally Posted by ItsMyRight2Carry View Post
    SNIP

    He then asked for my license, which I provided. He then advised me that he was going to remove the weapon "for his safety, and not to make any sudden moves."...


    He then said, "well if you have the receipt with you, next time maybe you won't have to go through this, and have your gun run to make sure it isn't stolen."

    Hahahahahahahaa!!! Copper gave that away, didn't he.
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