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Thread: Why is Utah a GREEN state?

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    Regular Member TigerLily's Avatar
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    Why is Utah a GREEN state?

    According to your page: http://www.opencarry.org/?page_id=103 Utah requires a permit to o.c. Did something change? Or am I misunderstanding the chart? Please advise. Thank you. I'll be covering this news report on my radio show today and am making the argument that open carry gals are less likely to be violated. http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/vi...shake.cnn.html 347-324-3704 @ noon mountain time.
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    Campaign Veteran ak56's Avatar
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    Loaded open carry requires a permit in Utah.

    http://www.opencarry.org/?page_id=306

    Utah allows unlicensed open carry of a firearm that is at least 2 actions from firing. For example, a semi-auto may have a full mag but the chamber must be empty. Permit holder may open carry as well, but their firearms may be fully loaded.
    No right is held more sacred, or is more carefully guarded, by the common law than the right of every individual to the possession and control of his own person, free from all restraint or interference of others, unless by clear and unquestionable authority of law. Union Pacific Rail Co. vs Botsford as quoted in Terry v Ohio.


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    Regular Member TigerLily's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ak56 View Post
    Loaded open carry requires a permit in Utah.

    http://www.opencarry.org/?page_id=306
    Thank you very much. I've been open carrying WITHOUT a bullet in my chamber. I'm thinking my safety on my .45 would qualify as the second action.

    Thanks again. I learned something!
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    Re: Why is Utah a GREEN state?

    You can open carry a single action revolver like my Ruger Super Blackhawk in Utah with all six holes of the cylinder full of bullets without a permit.

    Carthago Delenda Est

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    Regular Member Gil223's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kurt555gs View Post
    You can open carry a single action revolver like my Ruger Super Blackhawk in Utah with all six holes of the cylinder full of bullets without a permit.

    Carthago Delenda Est
    You can do that only if you enjoy state provided food and lodging.
    76-10-502. When weapon deemed loaded. (1) For the purpose of this chapter, any pistol, revolver, shotgun, rifle, or other weapon described in this part shall be deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile in the firing position. (2) Pistols and revolvers shall also be deemed to be loaded when an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile is in a position whereby the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired. (3) A muzzle loading firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinders.
    You will need to have TWO holes open, the one directly under the hammer, and the next one to come up. Apparently, Utah does not consider the rotation of the cylinder to be a separate action from the cocking of the hammer. Our "Utah Unloaded" open carry statute is worded a bit clumsily, but I doubt that a judge would consider that to be an acceptable excuse for loaded OC w/o a permit. Pax...
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    Regular Member Gil223's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TigerLily View Post
    Thank you very much. I've been open carrying WITHOUT a bullet in my chamber. I'm thinking my safety on my .45 would qualify as the second action.

    Thanks again. I learned something!
    And you would be wrong, TigerLily. You would still have an "unexpended round in the firing position", regardless of how many actions it may take to discharge it (see my previous post this thread). Pax...
    Last edited by Gil223; 06-29-2013 at 02:35 AM. Reason: Typo...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gil223 View Post
    And you would be wrong, TigerLily. You would still have an "unexpended round in the firing position", regardless of how many actions it may take to discharge it (see my previous post this thread). Pax...
    IF it is a mechanical safety that must be released by a mechanical action SEPARATE from a trigger pull then the release of the safety WOULD be the first action required, racking the slide the second, and the trigger pull the third action to fire..... Fully in compliance with the law with regard to a Semi-auto handgun! In fact, it would be fully in compliance even without the safety! TigerLily specified "NO ROUND IN THE CHAMBER"
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    Regular Member Gil223's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    IF it is a mechanical safety that must be released by a mechanical action SEPARATE from a trigger pull then the release of the safety WOULD be the first action required, racking the slide the second, and the trigger pull the third action to fire..... Fully in compliance with the law with regard to a Semi-auto handgun! In fact, it would be fully in compliance even without the safety! TigerLily specified "NO ROUND IN THE CHAMBER"
    You might want to consider rereading TigerLily's statement and mine. She seems to be under the impression that she CAN OC with a round chambered (assuming) without a permit. The law states
    76-10-502. When weapon deemed loaded. (1) For the purpose of this chapter, any pistol, revolver, shotgun, rifle, or other weapon described in this part shall be deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile in the firing position.
    The issue here is not so much one of how many actions, but a chambered round for a non-permit holder. If there is a round chambered there is no need to rack the slide, and if there is no round chambered there is no need to set the safety in the first place, which negates the need to release it.
    Pax...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gil223 View Post
    You might want to consider rereading TigerLily's statement and mine. She seems to be under the impression that she CAN OC with a round chambered (assuming) without a permit. The law states The issue here is not so much one of how many actions, but a chambered round for a non-permit holder. If there is a round chambered there is no need to rack the slide, and if there is no round chambered there is no need to set the safety in the first place, which negates the need to release it.
    Pax...
    Here is the EXACT line from TigerLily's post.....
    Quote Originally Posted by TigerLily
    I've been open carrying WITHOUT a bullet in my chamber.
    what did I miss?
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
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    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

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    Regular Member Gil223's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    Here is the EXACT line from TigerLily's post.....

    what did I miss?
    She has ""been open carrying WITHOUT a bullet in my chamber". Since she didn't specify, and most people in this forum seem to find the idea of CFP's a distasteful abuse of 2A, I assumed that she does not have a CFP. IF she does not, then she may not legally carry with a bullet in the chamber of her .45acp without being in violation of UC 76-10-502(1). A round chambered is a violation of the law without a CFP, because it IS in the "firing position", just as a round in the cylinder opening under the hammer of a revolver is considered a "loaded firearm". If she has a CFP her question is irrelevant because she can then carry fully loaded. Capisci? Pax...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gil223 View Post
    She has ""been open carrying WITHOUT a bullet in my chamber". Since she didn't specify, and most people in this forum seem to find the idea of CFP's a distasteful abuse of 2A, I assumed that she does not have a CFP. IF she does not, then she may not legally carry with a bullet in the chamber of her .45acp without being in violation of UC 76-10-502(1). A round chambered is a violation of the law without a CFP, because it IS in the "firing position", just as a round in the cylinder opening under the hammer of a revolver is considered a "loaded firearm". If she has a CFP her question is irrelevant because she can then carry fully loaded. Capisci? Pax...
    Again, she says she has be carrying with an EMPTY CHAMBER... seems fairly specific to me about the manner of her carry.

    Now, IF she were to carry with a round in the chamber WHILE on a public road without a permit issued by any State or County while in UTAH she would be in violation of the law. She has NOT said that she was doing this!
    Last edited by JoeSparky; 06-29-2013 at 05:47 PM.
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    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

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    Regular Member Gil223's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    Again, she says she has be carrying with an EMPTY CHAMBER... seems fairly specific to me about the manner of her carry.

    Now, IF she were to carry with a round in the chamber WHILE on a public road without a permit issued by any State or County while in UTAH she would be in violation of the law. She has NOT said that she was doing this!
    HAD BEEN... which implies she is now going to do something different, further impying a chambered round! She HAS NOT said that she hasn't done that, either. If she is only carrying on her own property then none of it makes any difference - it is therefore implied that she either IS, or is INTENDING to OC in public areas. Pax...

    P.S. A round in the chamber makes it loaded according to the previously cited statute.
    Last edited by Gil223; 06-29-2013 at 07:11 PM. Reason: Typo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gil223 View Post
    HAD BEEN... which implies she is now going to do something different, further impying a chambered round! She HAS NOT said that she hasn't done that, either. If she is only carrying on her own property then none of it makes any difference - it is therefore implied that she either IS, or is INTENDING to OC in public areas. Pax...

    P.S. A round in the chamber makes it loaded according to the previously cited statute.
    No sir, "I've been...." or I have been, is not I HAD been. I see NO IMPLICATION in her post of a change, merely a statement of what she HAS been doing.
    Last edited by JoeSparky; 06-29-2013 at 07:52 PM.
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
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    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

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    Re: Why is Utah a GREEN state?

    I learned something in this post. I assumed the two actions away clause was all that is necessary. Apparently, a round in the firing chamber, even in a single action revolver is most important. Good thing I have a non resident Utah permit.

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    Last edited by kurt555gs; 06-29-2013 at 08:01 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kurt555gs View Post
    I learned something in this post. I assumed the two actions away clause was all that is necessary. Apparently, a round in the firing chamber, even in a single action revolver is most important. Good thing I have a non resident Utah permit.

    Carthago Delenda Est
    yep, that law has 2 parts, one specifies "more than one action to fire" and the other specifies No live round in the chamber or under the hammer.

    BTW, if you have a single action NAA revolver or similar with a "safety rest" for the hammer BETWEEN cylinders then you can carry fully loaded even without a permit as you must cock the hammer (step one) and then pull the trigger (step two) to make the gun fire. This satisfies BOTH portions of the law!
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
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    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
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    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    No sir, "I've been...." or I have been, is not I HAD been. I see NO IMPLICATION in her post of a change, merely a statement of what she HAS been doing.
    Apparently you learned to read in Pleasant Grove... too bad. Her statement, "I've been open carrying...", is ambiguous, and I addressed it in the past tense using "had". TigerLily did not say, "I AM open carrying...". Using your unusual logic, then perhaps she stopped open carrying completely. The POINT is that according to UC 76-10-502(1), a ROUND IN THE CHAMBER IS CONSIDERED LOADED IN UTAH! It's NOT whether or not she is open carrying. Somebody told her it was not illegal. If you want to bail her out of jail, that's on you - just keep on confusing the issue.

    You're getting mired down in the minutiae of semantics. Her inquiry was not out of concern for anything but Utah requiring a permit for OC - which it does not. She had been misinformed in post #4, which took us off course from the OP, and into the realm of various conditions of carry. There are no exceptions for this make/model or that make/model in the law - including your Super Blackhawk. UC76-10-502 is worded in such a way that any single one of the conditions explained in (1), (2) or (3) is a condition which renders a firearm LOADED in the state of Utah, and can lead to the arrest of the person carrying said firearm. Meeting any of the three conditions - it does not require all conditions -puts an un-permitted OC'er afoul of the law. ("Condition 1" is considered loaded with or without a safety, simply because it is deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile in the firing position.)
    Last edited by Gil223; 06-30-2013 at 02:47 AM. Reason: Typo, of course...
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    Why is Utah a GREEN state?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gil223 View Post
    Apparently you learned to read in Pleasant Grove... too bad. Her statement, "I've been open carrying...", is ambiguous, and I addressed it in the past tense using "had". TigerLily did not say, "I AM open carrying...". Using your unusual logic, then perhaps she stopped open carrying completely. The POINT is that according to UC 76-10-502(1), a ROUND IN THE CHAMBER IS CONSIDERED LOADED IN UTAH! It's NOT whether or not she is open carrying. Somebody told her it was not illegal. If you want to bail her out of jail, that's on you - just keep on confusing the issue.

    You're getting mired down in the minutiae of semantics. Her inquiry was not out of concern for anything but Utah requiring a permit for OC - which it does not. She had been misinformed in post #4, which took us off course from the OP, and into the realm of various conditions of carry. There are no exceptions for this make/model or that make/model in the law - including your Super Blackhawk. UC76-10-502 is worded in such a way that any single one of the conditions explained in (1), (2) or (3) is a condition which renders a firearm LOADED in the state of Utah, and can lead to the arrest of the person carrying said firearm. Meeting any of the three conditions - it does not require all conditions -puts an un-permitted OC'er afoul of the law. ("Condition 1" is considered loaded with or without a safety, simply because it is deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile in the firing position.)
    While I agree with your analysis if the law u don't see her statement as ambiguous our suggesting that she is or has changed her manner of carry ( round in chamber or not)
    You have made a few assumptions however. I may live in Pleasant Grove but it is not where I learned to read. I don't own a super Blackhawks and never said I did.
    However if the hammer is not Over a cylinder at rest there is No round in firing position so with a single action revolver one Can legally open carry a revolver with all cylinders loaded. It will be carried in a manner in compliance with Utah's unloaded on a public road requirement for those without a permit.

    Basically, our "discussion" has been related to my not seeing your assertion that the OP's post indicated she was or had changed the manner in which she carried. I still don't see where she indicated a change, only a statement of how it was done previously.


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    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

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    Regular Member Gil223's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    While I agree with your analysis if the law u don't see her statement as ambiguous our suggesting that she is or has changed her manner of carry ( round in chamber or not)
    The ambiguity entered in when she failed to specify if she did or did not have a CFP. Being a OC forum, I found it logical to assume that she - like so many in this forum - felt no need for a CFP. Many (if not most) in here seem to feel that a CFP is an infringement upon 2A.

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    However if the hammer is not Over a cylinder at rest there is No round in firing position so with a single action revolver one Can legally open carry a revolver with all cylinders loaded. It will be carried in a manner in compliance with Utah's unloaded on a public road requirement for those without a permit.
    I'm not sure I follow this one... when the hammer is at rest, it is always over a cylinder.

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    Basically, our "discussion" has been related to my not seeing your assertion that the OP's post indicated she was or had changed the manner in which she carried. I still don't see where she indicated a change, only a statement of how it was done previously.
    Does not "a statement of how it was done previously", imply that the act - "it" - is no longer practiced... that something involved in the practice of "it" has changed? (I find it a bit ironic that the person requesting answers seems to have disengaged herself from the thread she began. She could "fill-in-the-blanks" for us.) Pax...
    Last edited by Gil223; 06-30-2013 at 09:23 PM. Reason: Close open parens
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gil223 View Post
    The ambiguity entered in when she failed to specify if she did or did not have a CFP. Being a OC forum, I found it logical to assume that she - like so many in this forum - felt no need for a CFP. Many (if not most) in here seem to feel that a CFP is an infringement upon 2A.

    I'm not sure I follow this one... when the hammer is at rest, it is always over a cylinder.

    Does not "a statement of how it was done previously", imply that the act - "it" - is no longer practiced... that something involved in the practice of "it" has changed? (I find it a bit ironic that the person requesting answers seems to have disengaged herself from the thread she began. She could "fill-in-the-blanks" for us.) Pax...
    As to the first paragraph... I can buy an assumption of no permit to conceal, but it is NOT absolute. But this has no predictive value with regard to her statment of how she has carried her .45 in the past (with an empty chamber). Now adding her comment about a safety, I could be comfortable assuming that she carries a Semi-auto. But, again, this is an assumption.
    2nd paragraph... I have a revolver that allows the hammer to rest BETWEEN chambers in the cylinder. It must manually be placed in this "SAFETY REST NOTCH". When the hammer is in this notch there is NO CHAMBER UNDER THE HAMMER AND THEREFORE, NO LIVE ROUND UNDER THE hammer and no way for the gun to fire upon being dropped. One must manually move the hammer back into the full cocked position which rotates the cylinder into proper position/timing before one is able to pull/squeeze the trigger causing the gun to fire. When carried in this manner with NO LIVE ROUND UNDER THE HAMMER and more than one mechanical action required to fire one is able to carry this in full compliance with the Utah UNLOADED requirement for one without a permit.

    3rd paragraph... We will have to agree to disagree. I don't see any PREDICTION of future change of action in a simple statement of I'VE DONE "THIS" IN THE PAST. Example... "I've worn my seat belt while driving in the past." It is a simple statement describing something in the past, nothing more! There just isn't enough info to extrapolate any change in the future WITHOUT FURTHER INFO which I haven't seen.

    Lastly, TigerLily mentioned that she was going to discuss this on her upcoming show (podcast I believe) which occurred prior to my seeing the post so it does not surprise me that she has not returned.

    BTW--- never did TL specify what she was carrying as to Revolver or Semi-Auto... only as to caliber of a .45! If a semi-auto without a permit she would be in full compliance to UTAH unloaded with and empty chamber and a fully loaded mag inserted. As to a single action type revolver where one must manually cock the hammer if the hammer can be a "safety notch" on the cylinder BETWEEN chambers as described above it can be carried with all chambers loaded, the hammer resting between chambers, and be in full compliance of the Utah unloaded requirement. This is not possible with a double action revolver which must have the chamber under the hammer without a live round and the next in sequence also minus a live round to be in compliance with this Utah law.
    Last edited by JoeSparky; 07-01-2013 at 10:41 AM.
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    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    As to the first paragraph... I can buy an assumption of no permit to conceal, but it is NOT absolute. But this has no predictive value with regard to her statment of how she has carried her .45 in the past (with an empty chamber). Now adding her comment about a safety, I could be comfortable assuming that she carries a Semi-auto. But, again, this is an assumption.
    2nd paragraph... I have a revolver that allows the hammer to rest BETWEEN chambers in the cylinder. It must manually be placed in this "SAFETY REST NOTCH". When the hammer is in this notch there is NO CHAMBER UNDER THE HAMMER AND THEREFORE, NO LIVE ROUND UNDER THE hammer and no way for the gun to fire upon being dropped. One must manually move the hammer back into the full cocked position which rotates the cylinder into proper position/timing before one is able to pull/squeeze the trigger causing the gun to fire. When carried in this manner with NO LIVE ROUND UNDER THE HAMMER and more than one mechanical action required to fire one is able to carry this in full compliance with the Utah UNLOADED requirement for one without a permit.

    3rd paragraph... We will have to agree to disagree. I don't see any PREDICTION of future change of action in a simple statement of I'VE DONE "THIS" IN THE PAST. Example... "I've worn my seat belt while driving in the past." It is a simple statement describing something in the past, nothing more! There just isn't enough info to extrapolate any change in the future WITHOUT FURTHER INFO which I haven't seen.

    Lastly, TigerLily mentioned that she was going to discuss this on her upcoming show (podcast I believe) which occurred prior to my seeing the post so it does not surprise me that she has not returned.

    BTW--- never did TL specify what she was carrying as to Revolver or Semi-Auto... only as to caliber of a .45! If a semi-auto without a permit she would be in full compliance to UTAH unloaded with and empty chamber and a fully loaded mag inserted. As to a single action type revolver where one must manually cock the hammer if the hammer can be a "safety notch" on the cylinder BETWEEN chambers as described above it can be carried with all chambers loaded, the hammer resting between chambers, and be in full compliance of the Utah unloaded requirement. This is not possible with a double action revolver which must have the chamber under the hammer without a live round and the next in sequence also minus a live round to be in compliance with this Utah law.
    Para 1 - I agree with your assumption, as I have never heard of a true "safety" on a .45 revolver (with the singular exception of the Taurus revolver's built-in, keyed action lock on post-1996 handguns - which is highly impractical for anyone carrying a sidearm for s/d).

    Para 2 - I'm guessing that the "safety notch" to which you refer is nothing more than the half-cock position. I'm not sure that half-cock would satisfy the requirements of the law for a non-permitted person to carry with a full cylinder. Besides which, half-cock is no more "at rest" than full-cock. It just necessitates one additional physical motion before one can discharge the revolver. IANAL, but I can read... and since our Utah law is significantly less than specific on the mechanics involved in defining acceptable safeties and the differences between the various types of handguns, the area is dark gray to me. The upside, I suppose, is that it is not a federal law, and a misunderstanding would be disposed of as a non-disqualifying misdemeanor.

    Para 3 -(shrug)

    Pax...
    Last edited by Gil223; 07-01-2013 at 01:33 PM. Reason: Typo
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  21. #21
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    Why is Utah a GREEN state?

    Gil223
    What I described in para2 is most definitely NOT a half cocked position. Look at the NAA website and their description of this safety feature on their mini revolvers.


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  22. #22
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    So, does Utah deserve "green state" status?

    Side note, a Glock with a loaded magazine inserted would may qualify as having two separate acts (meaning operator overt actions) to fire unless you consider the slide movement rearward and then forward to charge the weapons as two separate acts. or the "safety" is considered a seperate act after charging the weapon. Please describe the apparent two actions that must take place for a Glock to satisfy the requirements of the statute.

    It appears that the cited law needs to be changed.....this is likely a understatement.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Gil223's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    So, does Utah deserve "green state" status?

    Side note, a Glock with a loaded magazine inserted would may qualify as having two separate acts (meaning operator overt actions) to fire unless you consider the slide movement rearward and then forward to charge the weapons as two separate acts. or the "safety" is considered a seperate act after charging the weapon. Please describe the apparent two actions that must take place for a Glock to satisfy the requirements of the statute.

    It appears that the cited law needs to be changed.....this is likely a understatement.
    1. Rack the slide (it goes forward on its own, as part of a single mechanical action)
    2. Depress the trigger safety and continue to squeeze the trigger (mechanical actions 2 & 3. The trigger cannot be moved without the prior and separate mechanical action of depressing the trigger safety. Glocks also have 2 completely internal safeties, the "striker safety" and the "drop safety") Pax...
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  24. #24
    Regular Member Gil223's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    Gil223
    What I described in para2 is most definitely NOT a half cocked position. Look at the NAA website and their description of this safety feature on their mini revolvers.
    I have seen the NAA line, and you are correct about the "safety slot" (I just haven't known anybody OC'ing a NAA .22 rimfire Mini as their EDCWOC). I am unaware of any medium-to-large bore revolvers that have the safety slot feature. Can you direct me to one? Pax...

    P.S. I am NOT KNOCKING YOUR CHOICE - I once owned a Colt 4th Model Derringer .22 short (people get so sensitive about innocuous comments)! Everyone has the right to choose - OC/CC, Make, Model and Caliber - for themselves.
    Last edited by Gil223; 07-02-2013 at 09:01 PM.
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  25. #25
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    Why is Utah a GREEN state?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gil223 View Post
    I have seen the NAA line, and you are correct about the "safety slot" (I just haven't known anybody OC'ing a NAA .22 rimfire Mini as their EDCWOC). I am unaware of any medium-to-large bore revolvers that have the safety slot feature. Can you direct me to one? Pax...

    P.S. I am NOT KNOCKING YOUR CHOICE - I once owned a Colt 4th Model Derringer .22 short (people get so sensitive about innocuous comments)! Everyone has the right to choose - OC/CC, Make, Model and Caliber - for themselves.
    I never said I OC'd my NAA 1864 mini revolver. I was just using it as an example where one COULD carry with the cylinder fully loaded without a permit and still be in compliance with Utah's unloaded on a public road requirement for those without a permit.

    I have considered a custom holster for a S&W 500 magnum with a second holster attached for my NAA mini revolver in 22 magnum---- sort of a MAGNUM squared rig!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

    Life Member NRA
    Life Member GOA
    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

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