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Why is Utah a GREEN state?

TigerLily

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kurt555gs

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You can open carry a single action revolver like my Ruger Super Blackhawk in Utah with all six holes of the cylinder full of bullets without a permit.

Carthago Delenda Est
 

Gil223

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Weber County Utah
You can open carry a single action revolver like my Ruger Super Blackhawk in Utah with all six holes of the cylinder full of bullets without a permit.

Carthago Delenda Est
You can do that only if you enjoy state provided food and lodging.
76-10-502. When weapon deemed loaded. (1) For the purpose of this chapter, any pistol, revolver, shotgun, rifle, or other weapon described in this part shall be deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile in the firing position. (2) Pistols and revolvers shall also be deemed to be loaded when an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile is in a position whereby the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired. (3) A muzzle loading firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinders.
You will need to have TWO holes open, the one directly under the hammer, and the next one to come up. Apparently, Utah does not consider the rotation of the cylinder to be a separate action from the cocking of the hammer. Our "Utah Unloaded" open carry statute is worded a bit clumsily, but I doubt that a judge would consider that to be an acceptable excuse for loaded OC w/o a permit. Pax...
 

Gil223

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Thank you very much. I've been open carrying WITHOUT a bullet in my chamber. I'm thinking my safety on my .45 would qualify as the second action.

Thanks again. I learned something!
And you would be wrong, TigerLily. You would still have an "unexpended round in the firing position", regardless of how many actions it may take to discharge it (see my previous post this thread). Pax...
 
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JoeSparky

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And you would be wrong, TigerLily. You would still have an "unexpended round in the firing position", regardless of how many actions it may take to discharge it (see my previous post this thread). Pax...

IF it is a mechanical safety that must be released by a mechanical action SEPARATE from a trigger pull then the release of the safety WOULD be the first action required, racking the slide the second, and the trigger pull the third action to fire..... Fully in compliance with the law with regard to a Semi-auto handgun! In fact, it would be fully in compliance even without the safety! TigerLily specified "NO ROUND IN THE CHAMBER"
 

Gil223

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IF it is a mechanical safety that must be released by a mechanical action SEPARATE from a trigger pull then the release of the safety WOULD be the first action required, racking the slide the second, and the trigger pull the third action to fire..... Fully in compliance with the law with regard to a Semi-auto handgun! In fact, it would be fully in compliance even without the safety! TigerLily specified "NO ROUND IN THE CHAMBER"
You might want to consider rereading TigerLily's statement and mine. She seems to be under the impression that she CAN OC with a round chambered (assuming) without a permit. The law states
76-10-502. When weapon deemed loaded. (1) For the purpose of this chapter, any pistol, revolver, shotgun, rifle, or other weapon described in this part shall be deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile in the firing position.
The issue here is not so much one of how many actions, but a chambered round for a non-permit holder. If there is a round chambered there is no need to rack the slide, and if there is no round chambered there is no need to set the safety in the first place, which negates the need to release it.
:banghead: Pax...
 

JoeSparky

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You might want to consider rereading TigerLily's statement and mine. She seems to be under the impression that she CAN OC with a round chambered (assuming) without a permit. The law states The issue here is not so much one of how many actions, but a chambered round for a non-permit holder. If there is a round chambered there is no need to rack the slide, and if there is no round chambered there is no need to set the safety in the first place, which negates the need to release it.
:banghead: Pax...

Here is the EXACT line from TigerLily's post.....
TigerLily said:
I've been open carrying WITHOUT a bullet in my chamber.
what did I miss?
 

Gil223

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Weber County Utah
Here is the EXACT line from TigerLily's post.....

what did I miss?
She has ""been open carrying WITHOUT a bullet in my chamber". Since she didn't specify, and most people in this forum seem to find the idea of CFP's a distasteful abuse of 2A, I assumed that she does not have a CFP. IF she does not, then she may not legally carry with a bullet in the chamber of her .45acp without being in violation of UC 76-10-502(1). A round chambered is a violation of the law without a CFP, because it IS in the "firing position", just as a round in the cylinder opening under the hammer of a revolver is considered a "loaded firearm". If she has a CFP her question is irrelevant because she can then carry fully loaded. Capisci? :) Pax...
 

JoeSparky

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She has ""been open carrying WITHOUT a bullet in my chamber". Since she didn't specify, and most people in this forum seem to find the idea of CFP's a distasteful abuse of 2A, I assumed that she does not have a CFP. IF she does not, then she may not legally carry with a bullet in the chamber of her .45acp without being in violation of UC 76-10-502(1). A round chambered is a violation of the law without a CFP, because it IS in the "firing position", just as a round in the cylinder opening under the hammer of a revolver is considered a "loaded firearm". If she has a CFP her question is irrelevant because she can then carry fully loaded. Capisci? :) Pax...

Again, she says she has be carrying with an EMPTY CHAMBER... seems fairly specific to me about the manner of her carry.

Now, IF she were to carry with a round in the chamber WHILE on a public road without a permit issued by any State or County while in UTAH she would be in violation of the law. She has NOT said that she was doing this!
 
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Gil223

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Weber County Utah
Again, she says she has be carrying with an EMPTY CHAMBER... seems fairly specific to me about the manner of her carry.

Now, IF she were to carry with a round in the chamber WHILE on a public road without a permit issued by any State or County while in UTAH she would be in violation of the law. She has NOT said that she was doing this!
HAD BEEN... which implies she is now going to do something different, further impying a chambered round! She HAS NOT said that she hasn't done that, either. If she is only carrying on her own property then none of it makes any difference - it is therefore implied that she either IS, or is INTENDING to OC in public areas. Pax...

P.S. A round in the chamber makes it loaded according to the previously cited statute.
 
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JoeSparky

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HAD BEEN... which implies she is now going to do something different, further impying a chambered round! She HAS NOT said that she hasn't done that, either. If she is only carrying on her own property then none of it makes any difference - it is therefore implied that she either IS, or is INTENDING to OC in public areas. Pax...

P.S. A round in the chamber makes it loaded according to the previously cited statute.

No sir, "I've been...." or I have been, is not I HAD been. I see NO IMPLICATION in her post of a change, merely a statement of what she HAS been doing.
 
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kurt555gs

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I learned something in this post. I assumed the two actions away clause was all that is necessary. Apparently, a round in the firing chamber, even in a single action revolver is most important. Good thing I have a non resident Utah permit.

Carthago Delenda Est
 
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JoeSparky

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I learned something in this post. I assumed the two actions away clause was all that is necessary. Apparently, a round in the firing chamber, even in a single action revolver is most important. Good thing I have a non resident Utah permit.

Carthago Delenda Est

yep, that law has 2 parts, one specifies "more than one action to fire" and the other specifies No live round in the chamber or under the hammer.

BTW, if you have a single action NAA revolver or similar with a "safety rest" for the hammer BETWEEN cylinders then you can carry fully loaded even without a permit as you must cock the hammer (step one) and then pull the trigger (step two) to make the gun fire. This satisfies BOTH portions of the law!
 

Gil223

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No sir, "I've been...." or I have been, is not I HAD been. I see NO IMPLICATION in her post of a change, merely a statement of what she HAS been doing.
Apparently you learned to read in Pleasant Grove... too bad. Her statement, "I've been open carrying...", is ambiguous, and I addressed it in the past tense using "had". TigerLily did not say, "I AM open carrying...". Using your unusual logic, then perhaps she stopped open carrying completely. The POINT is that according to UC 76-10-502(1), a ROUND IN THE CHAMBER IS CONSIDERED LOADED IN UTAH! It's NOT whether or not she is open carrying. Somebody told her it was not illegal. If you want to bail her out of jail, that's on you - just keep on confusing the issue.

You're getting mired down in the minutiae of semantics. Her inquiry was not out of concern for anything but Utah requiring a permit for OC - which it does not. She had been misinformed in post #4, which took us off course from the OP, and into the realm of various conditions of carry. There are no exceptions for this make/model or that make/model in the law - including your Super Blackhawk. UC76-10-502 is worded in such a way that any single one of the conditions explained in (1), (2) or (3) is a condition which renders a firearm LOADED in the state of Utah, and can lead to the arrest of the person carrying said firearm. Meeting any of the three conditions - it does not require all conditions -puts an un-permitted OC'er afoul of the law. ("Condition 1" is considered loaded with or without a safety, simply because it is deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile in the firing position.) :banghead:
 
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JoeSparky

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Apparently you learned to read in Pleasant Grove... too bad. Her statement, "I've been open carrying...", is ambiguous, and I addressed it in the past tense using "had". TigerLily did not say, "I AM open carrying...". Using your unusual logic, then perhaps she stopped open carrying completely. The POINT is that according to UC 76-10-502(1), a ROUND IN THE CHAMBER IS CONSIDERED LOADED IN UTAH! It's NOT whether or not she is open carrying. Somebody told her it was not illegal. If you want to bail her out of jail, that's on you - just keep on confusing the issue.

You're getting mired down in the minutiae of semantics. Her inquiry was not out of concern for anything but Utah requiring a permit for OC - which it does not. She had been misinformed in post #4, which took us off course from the OP, and into the realm of various conditions of carry. There are no exceptions for this make/model or that make/model in the law - including your Super Blackhawk. UC76-10-502 is worded in such a way that any single one of the conditions explained in (1), (2) or (3) is a condition which renders a firearm LOADED in the state of Utah, and can lead to the arrest of the person carrying said firearm. Meeting any of the three conditions - it does not require all conditions -puts an un-permitted OC'er afoul of the law. ("Condition 1" is considered loaded with or without a safety, simply because it is deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile in the firing position.) :banghead:

While I agree with your analysis if the law u don't see her statement as ambiguous our suggesting that she is or has changed her manner of carry ( round in chamber or not)
You have made a few assumptions however. I may live in Pleasant Grove but it is not where I learned to read. I don't own a super Blackhawks and never said I did.
However if the hammer is not Over a cylinder at rest there is No round in firing position so with a single action revolver one Can legally open carry a revolver with all cylinders loaded. It will be carried in a manner in compliance with Utah's unloaded on a public road requirement for those without a permit.

Basically, our "discussion" has been related to my not seeing your assertion that the OP's post indicated she was or had changed the manner in which she carried. I still don't see where she indicated a change, only a statement of how it was done previously.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Gil223

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Jan 5, 2012
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Weber County Utah
While I agree with your analysis if the law u don't see her statement as ambiguous our suggesting that she is or has changed her manner of carry ( round in chamber or not)
The ambiguity entered in when she failed to specify if she did or did not have a CFP. Being a OC forum, I found it logical to assume that she - like so many in this forum - felt no need for a CFP. Many (if not most) in here seem to feel that a CFP is an infringement upon 2A.

However if the hammer is not Over a cylinder at rest there is No round in firing position so with a single action revolver one Can legally open carry a revolver with all cylinders loaded. It will be carried in a manner in compliance with Utah's unloaded on a public road requirement for those without a permit.
I'm not sure I follow this one... when the hammer is at rest, it is always over a cylinder.

Basically, our "discussion" has been related to my not seeing your assertion that the OP's post indicated she was or had changed the manner in which she carried. I still don't see where she indicated a change, only a statement of how it was done previously.
Does not "a statement of how it was done previously", imply that the act - "it" - is no longer practiced... that something involved in the practice of "it" has changed? (I find it a bit ironic that the person requesting answers seems to have disengaged herself from the thread she began. She could "fill-in-the-blanks" for us.) Pax...
 
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JoeSparky

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The ambiguity entered in when she failed to specify if she did or did not have a CFP. Being a OC forum, I found it logical to assume that she - like so many in this forum - felt no need for a CFP. Many (if not most) in here seem to feel that a CFP is an infringement upon 2A.

I'm not sure I follow this one... when the hammer is at rest, it is always over a cylinder.

Does not "a statement of how it was done previously", imply that the act - "it" - is no longer practiced... that something involved in the practice of "it" has changed? (I find it a bit ironic that the person requesting answers seems to have disengaged herself from the thread she began. She could "fill-in-the-blanks" for us.) Pax...

As to the first paragraph... I can buy an assumption of no permit to conceal, but it is NOT absolute. But this has no predictive value with regard to her statment of how she has carried her .45 in the past (with an empty chamber). Now adding her comment about a safety, I could be comfortable assuming that she carries a Semi-auto. But, again, this is an assumption.
2nd paragraph... I have a revolver that allows the hammer to rest BETWEEN chambers in the cylinder. It must manually be placed in this "SAFETY REST NOTCH". When the hammer is in this notch there is NO CHAMBER UNDER THE HAMMER AND THEREFORE, NO LIVE ROUND UNDER THE hammer and no way for the gun to fire upon being dropped. One must manually move the hammer back into the full cocked position which rotates the cylinder into proper position/timing before one is able to pull/squeeze the trigger causing the gun to fire. When carried in this manner with NO LIVE ROUND UNDER THE HAMMER and more than one mechanical action required to fire one is able to carry this in full compliance with the Utah UNLOADED requirement for one without a permit.

3rd paragraph... We will have to agree to disagree. I don't see any PREDICTION of future change of action in a simple statement of I'VE DONE "THIS" IN THE PAST. Example... "I've worn my seat belt while driving in the past." It is a simple statement describing something in the past, nothing more! There just isn't enough info to extrapolate any change in the future WITHOUT FURTHER INFO which I haven't seen.

Lastly, TigerLily mentioned that she was going to discuss this on her upcoming show (podcast I believe) which occurred prior to my seeing the post so it does not surprise me that she has not returned.

BTW--- never did TL specify what she was carrying as to Revolver or Semi-Auto... only as to caliber of a .45! If a semi-auto without a permit she would be in full compliance to UTAH unloaded with and empty chamber and a fully loaded mag inserted. As to a single action type revolver where one must manually cock the hammer if the hammer can be a "safety notch" on the cylinder BETWEEN chambers as described above it can be carried with all chambers loaded, the hammer resting between chambers, and be in full compliance of the Utah unloaded requirement. This is not possible with a double action revolver which must have the chamber under the hammer without a live round and the next in sequence also minus a live round to be in compliance with this Utah law.
 
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Gil223

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As to the first paragraph... I can buy an assumption of no permit to conceal, but it is NOT absolute. But this has no predictive value with regard to her statment of how she has carried her .45 in the past (with an empty chamber). Now adding her comment about a safety, I could be comfortable assuming that she carries a Semi-auto. But, again, this is an assumption.
2nd paragraph... I have a revolver that allows the hammer to rest BETWEEN chambers in the cylinder. It must manually be placed in this "SAFETY REST NOTCH". When the hammer is in this notch there is NO CHAMBER UNDER THE HAMMER AND THEREFORE, NO LIVE ROUND UNDER THE hammer and no way for the gun to fire upon being dropped. One must manually move the hammer back into the full cocked position which rotates the cylinder into proper position/timing before one is able to pull/squeeze the trigger causing the gun to fire. When carried in this manner with NO LIVE ROUND UNDER THE HAMMER and more than one mechanical action required to fire one is able to carry this in full compliance with the Utah UNLOADED requirement for one without a permit.

3rd paragraph... We will have to agree to disagree. I don't see any PREDICTION of future change of action in a simple statement of I'VE DONE "THIS" IN THE PAST. Example... "I've worn my seat belt while driving in the past." It is a simple statement describing something in the past, nothing more! There just isn't enough info to extrapolate any change in the future WITHOUT FURTHER INFO which I haven't seen.

Lastly, TigerLily mentioned that she was going to discuss this on her upcoming show (podcast I believe) which occurred prior to my seeing the post so it does not surprise me that she has not returned.

BTW--- never did TL specify what she was carrying as to Revolver or Semi-Auto... only as to caliber of a .45! If a semi-auto without a permit she would be in full compliance to UTAH unloaded with and empty chamber and a fully loaded mag inserted. As to a single action type revolver where one must manually cock the hammer if the hammer can be a "safety notch" on the cylinder BETWEEN chambers as described above it can be carried with all chambers loaded, the hammer resting between chambers, and be in full compliance of the Utah unloaded requirement. This is not possible with a double action revolver which must have the chamber under the hammer without a live round and the next in sequence also minus a live round to be in compliance with this Utah law.
Para 1 - I agree with your assumption, as I have never heard of a true "safety" on a .45 revolver (with the singular exception of the Taurus revolver's built-in, keyed action lock on post-1996 handguns - which is highly impractical for anyone carrying a sidearm for s/d).

Para 2 - I'm guessing that the "safety notch" to which you refer is nothing more than the half-cock position. I'm not sure that half-cock would satisfy the requirements of the law for a non-permitted person to carry with a full cylinder. Besides which, half-cock is no more "at rest" than full-cock. It just necessitates one additional physical motion before one can discharge the revolver. IANAL, but I can read... and since our Utah law is significantly less than specific on the mechanics involved in defining acceptable safeties and the differences between the various types of handguns, the area is dark gray to me. The upside, I suppose, is that it is not a federal law, and a misunderstanding would be disposed of as a non-disqualifying misdemeanor.

Para 3 -(shrug)

:) Pax...
 
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