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Thread: shooting low with full size guns

  1. #1
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    shooting low with full size guns

    I have a predicament that I hope I might get a little help with. I currently own three handguns, a sig P238, Walther PPX, and Glock 17. I currently carry the P238, but I have been looking for a larger caliber/higher capacity handgun to carry. I don't feel comfortable with the PPX as it has no safeties and a very light trigger.

    Which is why I bought the Glock. As it turns out, I hate the Glock trigger and I tend to pull rounds to the side when firing it. But here is the crux of my problem:
    When I shoot any of the full size weapons I shoot low approximately 6 inches at seven yards. I have shot several other full size guns that friends have but I always shoot low. My friend and I went to the range and at the end of the session I put the target at 25 yards and tried to hit the head with his beretta Px4. I hit the chest with every round. I had 4 rounds left in .380 and I attempted the same thing with the P238. Hit the head once and missed close with the other 3 rounds all at head level but to the left and right.

    I've heard that this can be due to anticipating recoil. I have considered this, but the PPX is the softest shooting firearm I have. The P238 has some muzzle flip and the perceived recoil is next to nothing on the PPX. So, I don't know.

    But I would like to carry a 9mm. If all else fails, I guess I could go with the P938. Everything I've heard is that it is virtually the same weapon as the P238. If I'm comfortable with the P238 I should do ok with the P938. But I really would like a higher capacity firearm.

    If anyone had any thoughts or suggestions I'd really appreciate it.

    Thanks in advance and have a wonderful day.

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    Welcome to OCDO.

    I hear trigger control issues that are solved by lots of practice. Try an attached laser (not a target laser, maybe just a pen taped to the barrel) and pulling the trigger on a snap-cap until the dot on the wall is stable.

    When the trigger pull is smooth and gentle then adjust your sight picture. I was taught full-pumpkin, with the ten ring sitting on the front post. I have taught half-pumpkin, with the X sitting on the front post.

    Flinch issues can be diagnosed with snap-caps mixed into a magazine of live rounds. You'll see the flinch on a snap-cap! I don't know how to cure flinch. I have never used hearing protection for their effect on potential flinch.
    Last edited by Nightmare; 06-28-2013 at 04:30 PM.
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    Regular Member Whitney's Avatar
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    Full size 9 mm

    Quote Originally Posted by bhthib3381 View Post
    I have a predicament that I hope I might get a little help with. I currently own three handguns, a sig P238, Walther PPX, and Glock 17. I currently carry the P238, but I have been looking for a larger caliber/higher capacity handgun to carry. I don't feel comfortable with the PPX as it has no safeties and a very light trigger.

    Which is why I bought the Glock. As it turns out, I hate the Glock trigger and I tend to pull rounds to the side when firing it. But here is the crux of my problem:
    When I shoot any of the full size weapons I shoot low approximately 6 inches at seven yards. I have shot several other full size guns that friends have but I always shoot low. My friend and I went to the range and at the end of the session I put the target at 25 yards and tried to hit the head with his beretta Px4. I hit the chest with every round. I had 4 rounds left in .380 and I attempted the same thing with the P238. Hit the head once and missed close with the other 3 rounds all at head level but to the left and right.

    I've heard that this can be due to anticipating recoil. I have considered this, but the PPX is the softest shooting firearm I have. The P238 has some muzzle flip and the perceived recoil is next to nothing on the PPX. So, I don't know.

    But I would like to carry a 9mm. If all else fails, I guess I could go with the P938. Everything I've heard is that it is virtually the same weapon as the P238. If I'm comfortable with the P238 I should do ok with the P938. But I really would like a higher capacity firearm.

    If anyone had any thoughts or suggestions I'd really appreciate it.

    Thanks in advance and have a wonderful day.
    Take a look at this, CZ-82
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    Regular Member BrianB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhthib3381 View Post
    I have a predicament that I hope I might get a little help with. I currently own three handguns, a sig P238, Walther PPX, and Glock 17. I currently carry the P238, but I have been looking for a larger caliber/higher capacity handgun to carry. I don't feel comfortable with the PPX as it has no safeties and a very light trigger.

    Which is why I bought the Glock. As it turns out, I hate the Glock trigger and I tend to pull rounds to the side when firing it.
    What do you hate about the Glock trigger? The out-of-the-box Glock trigger can be improved considerably with a little jewelers rouge, a Dremel tool, and a polishing wheel. Google "glock 25 cent trigger job" (without the quotes) and you'll find plenty of videos with pointers.

    You said you pull rounds to the side when firing it - which side? Left is one thing, right is another. Make sure you're using the middle of the pad of your trigger finger to pull the trigger straight to the rear, moving only your trigger finger and no other part of your hand (don't squeeze your whole hand/fist as you near the point when you know the trigger will break).

    Quote Originally Posted by bhthib3381 View Post
    But here is the crux of my problem:
    When I shoot any of the full size weapons I shoot low approximately 6 inches at seven yards. I have shot several other full size guns that friends have but I always shoot low. My friend and I went to the range and at the end of the session I put the target at 25 yards and tried to hit the head with his beretta Px4. I hit the chest with every round. I had 4 rounds left in .380 and I attempted the same thing with the P238. Hit the head once and missed close with the other 3 rounds all at head level but to the left and right.

    I've heard that this can be due to anticipating recoil. I have considered this, but the PPX is the softest shooting firearm I have. The P238 has some muzzle flip and the perceived recoil is next to nothing on the PPX. So, I don't know.
    Most likely answer is "anticipating recoil" but can also be from squeezing your whole hand just as you break the trigger. Easy way to find out what it is is to have a friend surreptitiously hide a snap cap somewhere in your magazine before you shoot. When you "fire" that round (which of course results in nothing but a "click") you and your friend will see you do something that disturbs your sight alignment or sight picture before the bullet has left the barrel -- most likely pulling the gun down in anticipation of recoil.

    Quote Originally Posted by bhthib3381 View Post
    But I would like to carry a 9mm. If all else fails, I guess I could go with the P938. Everything I've heard is that it is virtually the same weapon as the P238. If I'm comfortable with the P238 I should do ok with the P938. But I really would like a higher capacity firearm.
    This makes me think lots of things. First, I wouldn't carry any firearm in public if I wasn't confident that under the comparative calm of range conditions I could hit anything I want with it, on demand. Conventional wisdom says that in a defensive shooting, due to adrenalin and other factors, you'll shoot only half as well as you do on the range. If you're 6 inches from where you want to hit on the range, you may be a foot from where you want in a defensive shooting. Of course we want to hit the bad guy where we intend to (for maximum chance of stopping the fight) but we also want to make sure that it's the bad guy we hit and not some innocent bystander. A foot variance from point of aim makes doing both of those things a lot less likely.

    Next, the bigger concern about P238 vs. Glock 17 (or whatever) is that the P238 is a .380. Unless you need a micro gun for concealment purposes I'm not a big fan of .380 for defensive use if there are other options. Yes, the P238 also has a small "capacity", but the rounds you'd be carrying are also quite anemic (compared to a decent defensive 9mm round, or better yet a good .40 S&W round).

    Don't take offense a this next part, but how did you learn to shoot? A lot of folks teach themselves, or have "always been around guns" or were taught by a friend/relative that doesn't actually know proper shooting technique, etc. I'm not trying to be condescending -- many moons ago I was one of those gun owners that "liked to shoot" but actually had no idea how to shoot properly. The more you practice shooting incorrectly the harder it is to unlearn those bad techniques and replace them with good ones. If possible try to find a qualified instructor in your area to spend a little time with. It's amazing what even a couple hours of quality instruction will do to solve the kind of problems you describe.

    It is my opinion that actual shooting generally makes you a worse shooter - especially when you're new. What makes you a better shooter is plenty of "perfect dry practice". With an unloaded gun you work on the fundamentals of shooting: sight alignment, sight picture, trigger control, follow through (add in breath control, speed, etc. once you've mastered those). Get your brain used to the idea that when the trigger breaks, nothing "bad" happens (gun doesn't go boom). You can practice that perfect follow through -- sight alignment and sight picture remain perfect until the hammer/striker has fallen -- because there is no boom to disturb it. Then when you do go do some live practice to validate your dry practice, if you can keep the "gun won't go boom" mindset it makes it easier to do proper follow through with a loaded gun.

    When I have students that have the problems like what you mention I'll put snap caps randomly throughout the mag and watch the gun closely to see what they do when they "fire" the dummy round, or I'll manipulate the gun and pretend to chamber a round when I really haven't, etc. Once I've "fooled" them several times and they've dropped the hammer on an empty chamber (and flinched or whatever they're doing wrong) eventually they are not flinching anymore. Then I'll manipulate the gun and tell them it's empty when it's really not. Nine times out of ten, when they fire the "empty" gun (that isn't) then they'll score a perfect hit and realize they can do it.

    I'm an NRA instructor and tend to recommend NRA classes simply because I know what their content is. Certainly there are a ton of other qualified instructors and/or programs out there. Consider taking the "NRA Basic Pistol Shooting Course". You can use this page to see if there is one near you.

    I could have written a thousand more words of advice on the topic, but this is already too long.

    Good luck!

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Twenty five cents can cure your problem. Dry fire with a quarter on the slide. Of course this could be a problem because the Glock has to be reset between dry firing. Or buy a air soft to learn trigger control. The more expensive airsoft are almost identical to the firearms they mimic.

    You don't need to shoot a lot of rounds to become a very good shot. If you do not have the basics down thousands of rounds of ammunition is waste of money. Shooting a firearm is a extension of the body, every part of the body is important for control. From grip, to posture, to breathing, and of course the most important control of the brain.
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    Thanks for all the replies. Gives me a lot to think about.

    Brian,
    My P238 has relatively little travel and a nice clean break. It's stiff but not a problem. The PPX has a longer travel but it's a very light trigger. I don't have a problem with either of these. The Glock has a long travel and a stiff pull. I've tried dry fire practice on it and I just can't get it down. My nephew shoots well with it, so this will be his gun. I agree whole-heartedly with you that if I don't feel comfortable with a weapon, I shouldn't carry with it. Which is the reason I'm looking to get something I'm better at.

    I usually pull rounds to the right. I know it when I do it and I do it several times a magazine with the glock. I just don't care for this one.


    I'm going to take your suggestion and have a buddy load some snap caps into magazines for me. I will probably also set up a video camera to try to get a good view of what I'm doing when I pull the trigger.

    Agree somewhat about the .380. Currently it's the only weapon I'm really comfortable with so I have to make do. But this is the reason I'm thinking of going to the P938. Same platform as the P238 but in 9mm. I'm also thinking about maybe a 1911 in 9mm. I hear the P238 trigger is similar to the 1911's.

    I learned to shoot a rifle in the military. Haven't shot handguns since my teens. I agree that I should get classes, but due to my job I can't really schedule any classes in advance. If I'm home and the class is happening I can try to take one. But if it requires scheduling in advance, it's a no-go.(Thanks for the list, there is a class in my area).

    Thanks again for all of the responses and advice. I appreciate the time you all took to help out.
    Wish you all a wonderful weekend and a happy fourth.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    The P238 is the same as a Colt Mustang, which was designed as mini 1911. Considering that is the gun you shoot well with you should consider a 1911. You can get a RIA for reasonable. I built mine years ago from milsurp parts, but the RIA is a good deal, except for it is not US made, but neither is a Glock. Depending on what you want to spend there is a fair choice on caliber for 1911's. RIA sells 38 super, and I think 9mm as well as 45. A 9mm frame can swap barrels with the 38 super, 9mm, and 9X23, but the latter may be too hot for a cast frame. The good thing about a 1911 is dry firing is simple and will not harm the gun.

    If you are pulling to the right it sounds like grip problems with longer pulls. Do you have smaller hands?
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Regular Member Gil223's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhthib3381 View Post
    But I would like to carry a 9mm. If all else fails, I guess I could go with the P938. Everything I've heard is that it is virtually the same weapon as the P238. If I'm comfortable with the P238 I should do ok with the P938. But I really would like a higher capacity firearm.

    If anyone had any thoughts or suggestions I'd really appreciate it.

    Thanks in advance and have a wonderful day.
    Walking Wolf has a good idea with the RIA 1911. RIA has a good reputation, and seem to build a reliable pistol. Here's another thought about the RIA - the 22 TCM Standard/MicroMag Series 9mm. The 22TCM centerfire is a "convertible" - a centerfire .22TCM cartridge (which at 2,000+ fps has been rated as good or better than the 5.7) would give you negligable recoil while you worked on your grip. It comes as a combo, with a 9mm barrel and slide for a more serious carry arm. On the other hand, 22TCM ammunition is currently only available from Armscor and in 40gr JHP, and is somewhat difficult to find. CheaperThanDirt.com normally carries it @ <$30 per 50 rnds, but as of this writing they are "OUT OF STOCK". There's also the possibility that the 22TCM will become one of those "flash-in-the-pan" calibers... BUT you'll still have a 9mm. The pistol itself is difficult to find, and runs about $850 for the combo pkg - IF you can find it. The upside is that you have exactly the same grip angle, safety location, etc, when you change calibers, so there should be no "learning curve" at all.
    Here's a couple of photos:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Details are available @ https://us.armscor.com/products/22-t...-micro-mag-9mm and a detailed review can be found @ http://www.gunblast.com/RockIsland-22TCM.htm

    I'm interested in one of these myself.. there's a youtube video that shows a 22TCM hitting a watermelon, and it comes apart like it was hit by a 12guage! None of my local shops has - or has even had - a 22TCM. Pax...
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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    So you decided to come over here from handgunforum.com to ask the same question, eh?

    Welcome aboard, you will get a lot of info here. Study the target wheel in this link to see where you probably have to address your problem.

    http://www.google.com/search?q=trigg...tm%3B450%3B455

    You should not be shooting low at only seven yards, or most any practical handgun distance, with a handgun. I saw this happen in the extreme at a range several years back with a Glock 19. The fellow next to me was pulling the trigger straight through from the first stage to firing. While you DO what to get to that point because an extreme encounter is NOT going to suffer you time to pre-stage your trigger, when you're new at this, and he was, it can produce unwanted results. He kept hitting the ground from a rest at 25 yards.

    Start off by carefully pre-staging your trigger (Glock) to the second stage. Then ease into the second stage while maintaining a solid hold on the gun. Watch your trigger finger's contact with the trigger and try your best to isolate that finger from your grip. Many people do find the Glock trigger to be difficult when they are new to this. To get by this, do a lot of dry fire practice at home with a dime on the front of the slide. That dime should stay pu and not drop from the gun or shift to the left or right. If needed, the Glock trigger is simple to modify (God knows, I have done a lot of this with Glocks).
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

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    Thanks for all of the advice.

    It appears that the consensus is that I am not prestaging the triggers before firing and/or anticipating recoil.

    I will work of both of these my next time to the range and in the meantime I will have to do some dry fire practice. Thanks for the tips. I will try out as many of these suggestions as I can.

    Again, thanks for the advice. You guys have been most helpful.

    And southernboy, I did post this on handgunforums.net. I had one person reply that it might not be the me, it might be weapons. He then made the suggestion that he had filed down his front sight to accommodate. I thanked him for his advice but acknowledged that the problem was not the weapon but something that I am probably doing wrong. The three weapons I am talking about are made by glock, walther, and beretta. These are not low quality manufacturers and the chances that I have three weapons that are inaccurate is extremely unlikely especially considering other people shoot them just fine. After I said that I had another person tell me that I was definitely the problem. I was aware of that. One other member, I suspect was you, also later posted the same wheel that you did.
    Granted, I might not have given much time for responses, but I was very dismayed with someone telling me to file the sights on my handguns. I don't believe that was the greatest advice. So, I brought my question here. I would have deleted it on the other site, but I don't really know how to do that.
    All that being said, sorry if I stepped on toes by posting to this site after posting to another. Won't happen again. But thanks for your post. I have actually printed it out and will keep a small laminated copy with me for my friends and family to look at when we shoot. Very handy indeed.
    Hope you all have a great weekend.

  11. #11
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhthib3381 View Post
    Thanks for all of the advice.

    It appears that the consensus is that I am not prestaging the triggers before firing and/or anticipating recoil.

    I will work of both of these my next time to the range and in the meantime I will have to do some dry fire practice. Thanks for the tips. I will try out as many of these suggestions as I can.

    Again, thanks for the advice. You guys have been most helpful.

    And southernboy, I did post this on handgunforums.net. I had one person reply that it might not be the me, it might be weapons. He then made the suggestion that he had filed down his front sight to accommodate. I thanked him for his advice but acknowledged that the problem was not the weapon but something that I am probably doing wrong. The three weapons I am talking about are made by glock, walther, and beretta. These are not low quality manufacturers and the chances that I have three weapons that are inaccurate is extremely unlikely especially considering other people shoot them just fine. After I said that I had another person tell me that I was definitely the problem. I was aware of that. One other member, I suspect was you, also later posted the same wheel that you did.
    Granted, I might not have given much time for responses, but I was very dismayed with someone telling me to file the sights on my handguns. I don't believe that was the greatest advice. So, I brought my question here. I would have deleted it on the other site, but I don't really know how to do that.
    All that being said, sorry if I stepped on toes by posting to this site after posting to another. Won't happen again. But thanks for your post. I have actually printed it out and will keep a small laminated copy with me for my friends and family to look at when we shoot. Very handy indeed.
    Hope you all have a great weekend.
    You do know that I was funnin' with ya'.... right??

    I didn't read your post on the other website and I am sorry I didn't. You were asking a perfectly valid and good question and deserved answers in kind, in my opinion. I agree that filing down the front sight post is a bad idea and will not fix techniques that are the real issues needing to be addressed. Don't dispare. You'd be amazed at the number of people who have a weening in period with handguns or a certain handgun in particular. Practice the proper technique, watch your hold (grip), try your best to isolate your trigger finger, and use those sights. Your front sight is your eye target for being in focus. You will get there.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

  12. #12
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    You do know that I was funnin' with ya'.... right??

    I didn't read your post on the other website and I am sorry I didn't. You were asking a perfectly valid and good question and deserved answers in kind, in my opinion. I agree that filing down the front sight post is a bad idea and will not fix techniques that are the real issues needing to be addressed. Don't dispare. You'd be amazed at the number of people who have a weening in period with handguns or a certain handgun in particular. Practice the proper technique, watch your hold (grip), try your best to isolate your trigger finger, and use those sights. Your front sight is your eye target for being in focus. You will get there.
    Actually for self defense I suggest he NOT use the sights. He should get a CO2 airsoft, with bright colored BBs. His problem is not sight alignment, it is everything else, but mostly his grip. Anybody, or everybody can hit a small target at combat distance without sights, once the fundamentals have been achieved. My wife trains with a cheap airsoft from Walmart without using the sights. She can hit a empty pound container from my protein powder at 7 yards. Sights are good for target shooting, hunting, not so much for close quarters combat. The next best thing to using no sights is using only the front sight. Use a coin without using the sights to get your trigger control down.

    I used to shoot rabbits and squirrels with a 1849 pocket pistol as a teenager, I never used sights. I pointed the pistol at what I intended to shoot.

    OP work on your grip, and then take that back to the rest of your body. All handguns should be a extension of your arm, you should be able at the very least be able to hit with a handgun what you can with a rubber band from a pointed finger. Use a variety of tools, a slingshot is a good training tool. No sights, and the accuracy comes from the extension of the arm through to sling shot itself. Same for a bow, the draw weight of the bow will force a proper grip, this is the grip you want. Another way to get the grip is to pick up a five gallon bucket of water. The weight will force the wrist straight. Pick up the bucket with the trigger finger straight as you would hold a firearm. Then pretend to pull the trigger, these are all methods I have used to teach people to hit a target with instinct.The bucket also strengthens the arm used for shooting, a dumbbell might work the same.

    From the elbow, there should be a straight line to the muzzle, until you get that you will never achieve the accuracy you desire. Adjust the finger on the trigger, not the grip to adjust the trigger to the finger. Some handguns are just too big for some people, and some are too small. Tie a string on the muzzle, hold the handgun. Have someone pull that string back to the place they take blood, the crook of the arm. If that string is not in perfect alignment you will not have the instinct to hit the target, and will show up even when you use sights.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 06-30-2013 at 12:30 PM.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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  13. #13
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Actually for self defense I suggest he NOT use the sights. He should get a CO2 airsoft, with bright colored BBs. His problem is not sight alignment, it is everything else, but mostly his grip. Anybody, or everybody can hit a small target at combat distance without sights, once the fundamentals have been achieved. My wife trains with a cheap airsoft from Walmart without using the sights. She can hit a empty pound container from my protein powder at 7 yards. Sights are good for target shooting, hunting, not so much for close quarters combat. The next best thing to using no sights is using only the front sight. Use a coin without using the sights to get your trigger control down.

    I used to shoot rabbits and squirrels with a 1849 pocket pistol as a teenager, I never used sights. I pointed the pistol at what I intended to shoot.

    OP work on your grip, and then take that back to the rest of your body. All handguns should be a extension of your arm, you should be able at the very least be able to hit with a handgun what you can with a rubber band from a pointed finger. Use a variety of tools, a slingshot is a good training tool. No sights, and the accuracy comes from the extension of the arm through to sling shot itself. Same for a bow, the draw weight of the bow will force a proper grip, this is the grip you want. Another way to get the grip is to pick up a five gallon bucket of water. The weight will force the wrist straight. Pick up the bucket with the trigger finger straight as you would hold a firearm. Then pretend to pull the trigger, these are all methods I have used to teach people to hit a target with instinct.The bucket also strengthens the arm used for shooting, a dumbbell might work the same.

    From the elbow, there should be a straight line to the muzzle, until you get that you will never achieve the accuracy you desire. Adjust the finger on the trigger, not the grip to adjust the trigger to the finger. Some handguns are just too big for some people, and some are too small. Tie a string on the muzzle, hold the handgun. Have someone pull that string back to the place they take blood, the crook of the arm. If that string is not in perfect alignment you will not have the instinct to hit the target, and will show up even when you use sights.
    In immediate SD situations I completely agree with this. In an immediate SD encounter, one is not going to have the luxury of time to try to gain a sight picture. Sending rounds into your assailant is what's going to matter. If do have time on your side, so much the better.

    But he is trying to get to first base and once he can clear all of the bases, he can then start practicing on point shooting. I found that this tends to come naturally with good practice. I am comfortable getting meaningful hits within the magic seen yard distance with point shooting. What I find myself doing is using the slide as a guide to where my rounds are going to go.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

  14. #14
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    In immediate SD situations I completely agree with this. In an immediate SD encounter, one is not going to have the luxury of time to try to gain a sight picture. Sending rounds into your assailant is what's going to matter. If do have time on your side, so much the better.

    But he is trying to get to first base and once he can clear all of the bases, he can then start practicing on point shooting. I found that this tends to come naturally with good practice. I am comfortable getting meaningful hits within the magic seen yard distance with point shooting. What I find myself doing is using the slide as a guide to where my rounds are going to go.
    The problem with sights is that people can, and some do, line sights up by making the very mistakes that cause them the problems. I learned to shoot with a Jr Bow when I was little, without sights, like most kids then I had a sling shot. None of them had sights, yet I got very good. I started shooting with a pellet gun as I got older. And found I could hit anything I pointed at, without the sights. I never used the front post on a shotgun, it was always just point and fire. Once I got to getting my first handgun, that old 1849 Colt I found it took little time to adjust the technique to the little handgun. It did not have much of sights anyway.

    Even though the bow is gripped with the offhand, it is still probably the best lesson for shooting technique.
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  15. #15
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    In my few outings shooting trap and skeet, I can't say I ever recall using the front bead sight. It was just sight down the barrel and fire. But it has been some years since I shot trap and skeet so my memory could be drifting on this one. As for handguns I often wonder and worry about the high stress on using your sights. Granted, if you have the time then this is the best way to go. But let's face it. If an attack comes to someone, they are going to go through some distinct steps before they get into the game. The more you train, the less time one will likely spend on these steps. But generally, one goes from disbelief to action with a few things in between so getting on the sights is probably not going to happen. And if that is how someone has trained, then there is a danger in lost time while the instinct demands sight picture. Getting that gun out and into action is the primary focus. Everything else pales in light of this.... unless you can get to cover or concealment first.

    Good points there WalkingWolf. The sling shot (what boy didn't have one), the bow, and BB guns. All good starters. I had a Wham-O slingshot (actually several) when I had the money but most of mine were made from tree branches. I had a Daisy Eagle BB gun and later the Benjamin Hot Shot Model 30/30 BB gun. Now that one was pretty powerful. Had a ball growing up.

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    Walking Wolf:
    Thanks for the advice, I'm going to practice the exercises that you provided. Just wondering. How tight a grip do you recommend? I hold the weapon firmly but I do not white-knuckle it by any means. I'm curious as to what you suggest.

    Southernboy:
    I figured you might be joking but you know how it is with text, sarcasm doesn't come across that well. I figured I'd explain rather than making a snarky answer in return.

    Again, thanks to everyone for all of the advice. Hope you all have a wonderful 4th of July.

  17. #17
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhthib3381 View Post
    Walking Wolf:
    Thanks for the advice, I'm going to practice the exercises that you provided. Just wondering. How tight a grip do you recommend? I hold the weapon firmly but I do not white-knuckle it by any means. I'm curious as to what you suggest.

    Southernboy:
    I figured you might be joking but you know how it is with text, sarcasm doesn't come across that well. I figured I'd explain rather than making a snarky answer in return.

    Again, thanks to everyone for all of the advice. Hope you all have a wonderful 4th of July.
    If the gun is shaking in your hand you are holding too tight, no you do not want white knuckle but a firm grip. If you practice dry firing you will notice the difference. A firm grip will lessen felt recoil, which will help with anticipating the recoil. The most important is that the grip is firm enough that you are not pulling the gun to the side with trigger pull. Which is usually what happens when the shot is low and to the right.

    Keep in mind to that shooting should be fun, so don't get overly frustrated if you do not master it over night.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
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  18. #18
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    I always have fun shooting. I usually shoot with my nephew and/or my brother. We are a competitive family and everything is a competition for bragging rights. The winner of everything gets to sh**-talk, so I must get better. Mainly because my nephew is in his mid-teens and he picked up a gun for the first time after Christmas. His father bought him a .22 rifle. He picked up his first handgun a few months ago when I bought my glock.
    It's crazy how good he is with it, especially considering how inexperienced he is with firearms. I mean except for video games. The first time he shot the handgun, his father remarked that he couldn't believe he was better than us on his first time out.

    So, while I enjoy shooting and do so every time I get the chance and the ammunition, I have to get better so that I can do the bragging.

  19. #19
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Hmmmmm~Video games, well I guess one could get good from playing them. I dunno though, I never liked them much.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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    I don't know. He was pretty good. I'm going to try to get us into some classes. I think he could be pretty darn good. On his second magazine from a handgun he put two into the bullseye and only missed the black once at about 10 yards. Considering the only targets we were able to find were rifle targets and they were kinda small, I think he did quite well.

    His groups suck, and that can be corrected with technique, but I think the instincts are there.
    Last edited by bhthib3381; 07-02-2013 at 12:57 AM.

  21. #21
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    It is call anticipating the recoil you are forcing the gun forward and downwards just before the shot trying to stop the gun for recoiling.

    Front sight, front sight, front sight keeping the front sight where it is suppose to be and trigger control well solve this.

    When one gets the basics down then you can start speeding up and point shooting or using a flash sight picture.

    Too many shooters start out to fast with out learning proper trigger control and sight picture.
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  22. #22
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    Thanks everyone,

    Just to let you all know, I went to the range yesterday. The problem was mostly not prestaging the trigger.

    When I did prestage, the shots were center mass. I did anticipate recoil on a few shots. And I still didn't prestage the trigger on a few shots. Now that I was looking for the problem, I saw the barrel dip every time.

    I'm going to practice more with the Glock, but when I have the money, I'm going to get a 1911. I still hate the trigger. I hate the pretravel and the trigger reset feels awful to me compared to my P238.

    But thanks again everyone. I still have to work on my technique, but you guys have given me a great place to start.

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