Results 1 to 25 of 25

Thread: safety checkpoints

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    sparta ky
    Posts
    251

    safety checkpoints

    Just read that KSP will be doing safety checkpoints in Oldham, Trimble, Henry, Owen,
    Carroll and Gallatin Counties in July.

    I know they can not search my car but what about asking to see registration, proof of ins and DLs.
    Without a violation that they see what if any right do they have to stop me?
    Of course I will be OCing and I know that's OK.

    Mike

  2. #2
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    earth's crust
    Posts
    17,838
    I think that, since its a legal seizure (whatt??? yes, a legal seizure) they can ask for your info just like any other traffic stop.

    You do not have to talk of course.

  3. #3
    Regular Member CharleyCherokee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    WesternKy
    Posts
    294
    If they see the gun it is apparently ok for them to take you out of the car, steal your gun, and run your serial numbers to make sure you aren't a felon in possession of a stolen gun. I've heard that people who undergo this treatment are very thankful for it.
    A bullet may have your name on it, but shrapnel is addressed to whom it may concern.
    Why open carrying is a good idea: http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-14...encounter.html

  4. #4
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Louisa, Kentucky
    Posts
    1,694
    Quote Originally Posted by CharleyCherokee View Post
    If they see the gun it is apparently ok for them to take you out of the car, steal your gun, and run your serial numbers to make sure you aren't a felon in possession of a stolen gun. I've heard that people who undergo this treatment are very thankful for it.
    I would be sure to tell them that it is unlawful for them to seize your firearm, even if it is only for a short time.

    Does anyone know the legality of resisting an illegal action by police?
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    21

    safety checkpoints

    They will be doing these in Anderson Franklin Woodford and Fayette as well.ive been thru my fair share of these and never had an issue with a gun i just hand them my ccw drivers lic insurence etc. most of the time they just look at my plate to see if there expired and wave me on thru.
    Last edited by o3rugby1; 06-30-2013 at 09:40 PM.

  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Central KY
    Posts
    917
    I went through one a few months ago with no problem.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ed-River-Gorge

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Centertown
    Posts
    20
    All it will take is one Barney Fife participating in the stop, and he will do whatever he wishes. The local authority,
    prosecutor and the Judge, will back the officer. It won't matter that the officer is wrong in every action he takes.
    The average citizen has neither the time nor the money to fight the system long enough to come out on top. They
    know this, and that is what they will try every time. This is just my humble opinion, but I have seen it occur more
    than once.

  8. #8
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766
    Quote Originally Posted by ps1mhd View Post
    Just read that KSP will be doing safety checkpoints in Oldham, Trimble, Henry, Owen,
    Carroll and Gallatin Counties in July.

    I know they can not search my car but what about asking to see registration, proof of ins and DLs.
    Without a violation that they see what if any right do they have to stop me?
    Of course I will be OCing and I know that's OK.

    Mike

    Roadblock, roadblock, roadblock. No sense in going along with the government's Orwellian terminology.

    Just for flavor, try this: "safety roadblock". See? Suddenly it doesn't sound all warm and fuzzy.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  9. #9
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766
    Quote Originally Posted by ps1mhd View Post
    SNIP Without a violation that they see what if any right do they have to stop me?
    Not sure what you're asking, so I'll address two possibilities.

    First, if you're caught in a roadblock, you're already seized, so there's not much point in asking if they have further right to stop you for no visible violation--that's how they stopped you in the first place: fishing for violations they couldn't see while you're rolling down the road.

    Alternatively, if you're asking what right do they have to seize you in a suspicionless, fishing-expedition roadblock in the first place, the answer is, "Why, none, of course." But, that's never stopped 'em before. Government in this country has been grabbing more and more power literally since before ratification of the constitution. The US Supreme court approved of these safety roadblocks some years ago in direct violation of 4th Amendment probable cause and particularity principles.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  10. #10
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Centertown
    Posts
    20
    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post

    While what you say may be true, that doesn't mean that we can't file complaints with their bosses. They may go nowhere, but we might hit on that one officer that has a file full of complaints and they are looking for one more to can him or we hit that one boss who has respect for his oath of office and the rights of the people. In any case its worth doing just so we can say we tried everything. Doing nothing and whining about it accomplishes nothing.
    I didn't say anyone should quit carrying. However I do think everyone should understand and every one should be prepared.
    There are over zealous officers out there. No one knows who the are. No one should be surprised when they meet one. Have
    a recording device running. If possible have a cell phone taking video. It is very very difficult to hold ones temper while being treated like a criminal. Let the LEO look like the criminal, don't raise ones voice. Give them absolutely nothing they can claim
    to be a violation.

    I certainly did not wish to imply we should give up. But we should also not just think, well I have been through several of
    these, there won't be a problem. There can be a problem, It can get very expensive, it can be very time consuming, and
    depending on your career, it could even cause you to loose your job.

  11. #11
    Activist Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Ashland, KY
    Posts
    1,847
    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    I would be sure to tell them that it is unlawful for them to seize your firearm, even if it is only for a short time.

    Does anyone know the legality of resisting an illegal action by police?
    Notwithstanding the provisions of KRS 503.050, the use of physical force by a defendant upon another person is not justifiable when:

    (1) The defendant is resisting an arrest by a peace officer, recognized to be acting under color of official authority and using no more force than reasonably necessary to effect the arrest, although the arrest is UNLAWFUL;

    Do not resist ANY unlawful action by a peace officer unless your life depends on it! The courts will sort everything out and by resisting you could possibly add more charges than you would've had to begin with.
    Last edited by KYGlockster; 07-02-2013 at 12:42 PM.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

  12. #12
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Boone County, KY
    Posts
    312
    So these checkpoints can be anywhere in those counties mentioned and no one has to announce or publish the exact locations in advance like they do with the DUI/DWI checkpoints that they have in and around Cincinnati? I like to know if this is the case, why are drunk driving checkpoints legally different than 'safety' checkpoints? In both cases it is illegal to try to go around them to avoid them.

    700 WLW Cincinnati mentions where the DUI/DWI checkpoints will be in advance. I'm sure its mentioned on TV and in the newspapers as well. Never heard anything about safety checkpoints.
    I am not a lawyer, I study the history of gun control laws.

  13. #13
    Regular Member DrakeZ07's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Lexington, Ky
    Posts
    1,107
    Quote Originally Posted by Midwest View Post
    So these checkpoints can be anywhere in those counties mentioned and no one has to announce or publish the exact locations in advance like they do with the DUI/DWI checkpoints that they have in and around Cincinnati? I like to know if this is the case, why are drunk driving checkpoints legally different than 'safety' checkpoints? In both cases it is illegal to try to go around them to avoid them.

    700 WLW Cincinnati mentions where the DUI/DWI checkpoints will be in advance. I'm sure its mentioned on TV and in the newspapers as well. Never heard anything about safety checkpoints.
    Please cite that tidbit. I've stopped short of plenty of DUI/"Safety" road blocks, and made a legal U-turn, or just by-passed them with other road connections, purely to avoid them, and have not been arrested, or pulled over, or harassed for doing such... Yet. And I've kinda assumed it was legal to avoid road-blocks, since I've read somewhere else on the forums [I think it was the General Discussion area] that a U.S. District court said its not illegal to avoid them; So, I took it to apply to Kentucky via the full faith and credit clause of the 4th Amendment.

    *I've been googling it, and I can't find the exact case for it, but there is reference to a 1990 SCOTUS case involving the Michigan State Police, where it is found constitutional, but at the same time unconstitutional and acceptable.

    **For better reading, I found this website article to be very informative, and responsive, critical and helpful, with a Constitutional/Liberty minded approach in most aspects. http://www.motorists.org/dui/roadblock

    ***I cannot find the district court case, and have not bothered to read the SCOTUS case, so research on your own and consult an attorney on your own dime to find out for yourself, but generally speaking from experiance, if you're not drunk, and not committing a crime, then you have nothing to worry about in make a LEGAL U-turn, or using side-roads, while avoiding a roadblock. And lets call it what it is, a ROADBLOCK, not a 'checkpoint', because you are being detained when stopped, and do not have freedom of movement.

    Some other interesting things being, the cops have to stop ALL vehicles at a roadblock, OR pick every third, or fourth, vehicles to stop, and let others pass by. Any deviation of that plan, which has to be announced beforehand publicly, is considered illegal.

    Furthermore, with our right to arms, and the fact that it isn't illegal to have a firearm, loaded or unloaded, in clear and open and plain view; I'd tell a cop to p*ss-off if they made a comment or tried to take my gun. They can take it, sure, but I'll make them squeal like a piggy when my lawyer sues them for all they're worth.
    Last edited by DrakeZ07; 07-02-2013 at 03:22 PM.
    I'm a proud openly gay open carrier~
    Trained SKYWARN spotter, and veteran Storm Chaser.
    =^.^= ~<3~ =^.^=
    Beware the Pink Camo clad gay redneck.

  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Boone County, KY
    Posts
    312
    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeZ07 View Post
    Please cite that tidbit. I've stopped short of plenty of DUI/"Safety" road blocks, and made a legal U-turn, or just by-passed them with other road connections, purely to avoid them, and have not been arrested, or pulled over, or harassed for doing such... Yet. And I've kinda assumed it was legal to avoid road-blocks, since I've read somewhere else on the forums [I think it was the General Discussion area] that a U.S. District court said its not illegal to avoid them; So, I took it to apply to Kentucky via the full faith and credit clause of the 4th Amendment.

    *I've been googling it, and I can't find the exact case for it, but there is reference to a 1990 SCOTUS case involving the Michigan State Police, where it is found constitutional, but at the same time unconstitutional and acceptable.

    **For better reading, I found this website article to be very informative, and responsive, critical and helpful, with a Constitutional/Liberty minded approach in most aspects. http://www.motorists.org/dui/roadblock

    ***I cannot find the district court case, and have not bothered to read the SCOTUS case, so research on your own and consult an attorney on your own dime to find out for yourself, but generally speaking from experiance, if you're not drunk, and not committing a crime, then you have nothing to worry about in make a LEGAL U-turn, or using side-roads, while avoiding a roadblock. And lets call it what it is, a ROADBLOCK, not a 'checkpoint', because you are being detained when stopped, and do not have freedom of movement.

    Some other interesting things being, the cops have to stop ALL vehicles at a roadblock, OR pick every third, or fourth, vehicles to stop, and let others pass by. Any deviation of that plan, which has to be announced beforehand publicly, is considered illegal.

    Furthermore, with our right to arms, and the fact that it isn't illegal to have a firearm, loaded or unloaded, in clear and open and plain view; I'd tell a cop to p*ss-off if they made a comment or tried to take my gun. They can take it, sure, but I'll make them squeal like a piggy when my lawyer sues them for all they're worth.
    I found some interesting variations. Yes, 'roadblock' is a more direct term.

    http://www.avvo.com/legal-guides/ugc...oint-roadblock

    Chase" cars are stationed at each roadblock location, to chase down any drivers who turn around or turn away from a roadblock

    Virtually every roadblock has an officer assigned to be the "Chase" car operator. He is waiting in an idling vehicle at a strategic vantage point to see any vehicles that may attempt to avoid the roadblock. These “chase” officers assume that ANY vehicle turning away from the roadblock is trying to avoid detection for possible impaired driving. Several cases across the US have held that citizens who do not wish to be delayed at a roadblock or citizens who believe they have happened upon an accident may find a safe, legal way to leave and not pass through the safety or sobriety checkpoint. Not every state’s decisional laws follow this guideline closely, however. In one roadblock case handled by the author, the only roadway possible to turn upon as cars approached the roadblock was a horseshoe-shaped road that emptied back onto the same roadway. Any car that made that turn, even if the turn was legal, was pulled over by the chase car. This roadblock was declared to be illegal.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Here they say one block ahead

    http://www.mcdonalddefense.com/2011/...ui-roadblocks/


    "You may turn around prior to the checkpoint: So long as you do not break any traffic laws or regulations, you have the right to turn around and take a different prior to being stopped at the checkpoint. That is, if you can turn off one block ahead of the actual checkpoint, you may do so to avoid the sobriety check."
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    It might vary from state to state (North Carolina)

    http://www.ncids.org/Defender%20Trai...20V%20Rose.pdf


    The Right to Turn Around
    Perhaps the most natural response a person can have when faced with an impending checkpoint is to simply turn around. Unfortunately, the North Carolina Supreme Court has held that police officers at a checkpoint “may pursue and stop a vehicle which has turned away from a checkpoint within its perimeters for reasonable inquiry to determine why the vehicle turned away.”
    Last edited by Midwest; 07-02-2013 at 05:01 PM.
    I am not a lawyer, I study the history of gun control laws.

  15. #15
    Regular Member CharleyCherokee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    WesternKy
    Posts
    294
    I can't recall the exact case, but I do recall reading that the Kentucky Supreme court ruled that avoiding a roadblock constituted RAS. You could be pulled over for doing this in Kentucky. This is certainly not the case in every state.
    A bullet may have your name on it, but shrapnel is addressed to whom it may concern.
    Why open carrying is a good idea: http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-14...encounter.html

  16. #16
    Regular Member hammer6's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    1,169
    Quote Originally Posted by CharleyCherokee View Post
    I can't recall the exact case, but I do recall reading that the Kentucky Supreme court ruled that avoiding a roadblock constituted RAS. You could be pulled over for doing this in Kentucky. This is certainly not the case in every state.

    and SCOTUS ruled that a roadblock doesn't infringe on your 4th amendment rights if you turn around prior to being next in line. look it up.

  17. #17
    Regular Member CharleyCherokee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    WesternKy
    Posts
    294
    That's interesting. I'll be sure to do that.
    A bullet may have your name on it, but shrapnel is addressed to whom it may concern.
    Why open carrying is a good idea: http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-14...encounter.html

  18. #18
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Centertown
    Posts
    20
    Quote Originally Posted by hammer6 View Post
    and SCOTUS ruled that a roadblock doesn't infringe on your 4th amendment rights if you turn around prior to being next in line. look it up.
    I know I am inept when it comes to computers. I have tried to locate the this ruling. Could you post a link. I have spent
    several hours looking with no avail. I would be interested in reading this ruling.

  19. #19
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Louisa, Kentucky
    Posts
    1,694
    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    Do not resist ANY unlawful action by a peace officer unless your life depends on it! The courts will sort everything out and by resisting you could possibly add more charges than you would've had to begin with.
    I apologize Glockster, I didn't mean like resisting arrest.

    I meant more along the lines of not following an unlawful request.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

  20. #20
    Regular Member hammer6's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    1,169
    Quote Originally Posted by 56brd View Post
    I know I am inept when it comes to computers. I have tried to locate the this ruling. Could you post a link. I have spent
    several hours looking with no avail. I would be interested in reading this ruling.
    GOOGLE is really helpful.... i typed in "scotus said turn around at dui checkpoint" and it came up on the first page...

  21. #21
    Regular Member neuroblades's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    , Kentucky, USA
    Posts
    1,240

    July 4th 2013 DUI Check Point Video

    This incident happened last night in Murfreesboro, TN. I received a link via FB and thought that it was well worth sharing because it's a great example of the LE knowingly violating the law and admitting it on video!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-WMn_zHCVo
    Got SIG? MOLON LABE

  22. #22
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Gravel Switch, KY
    Posts
    544
    Does he get to sue them for damaging his car?

  23. #23
    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Marion County, FL
    Posts
    3,005
    I'm so sick of the swine and their "drug dogs". The dogs are just for show. They WILL say the dog "alerted" no matter what. It's happened to me. I told them if they planted anything, I would ruin their lives. They did make the dog "alert", and they didn't plant anything, thank God. This was in South Carolina.

    Thanks neocons for your "war on drugs", which is actually a war on freedom.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

  24. #24
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Centertown
    Posts
    20
    Quote Originally Posted by hammer6 View Post
    GOOGLE is really helpful.... i typed in "scotus said turn around at dui checkpoint" and it came up on the first page...
    I will just be forced to accept that I am completely inept. I did exactly as instructed. I read for about 3 hours.
    I do understand, that is not an eternity, but it certainly was more than just a quick glance.

    If I were to turn around at a safety check today and was arrested I could not cite a particular case from SCOK
    nor SCOTUS to back my argument that my constitutional rights were violated.

  25. #25
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Nothern KY
    Posts
    201
    Cellphones have eliminated any argument for check points for safety. Anyone weaving on the road is pretty easy to spot and will get called in. The police have more "eyes" on the road than EVER before.

    I almost slammed into a cop one night. I was going to Pike county and saw about 4 police cruisers pulled to left side and 1 on the right side. I thought it was an accident and pulled to the right to move away from the "emergency". I almost didn't notice the officer standing in the middle of the road (highway) with his arm up. This was a wide highway (23) and I was the only one on the road at that hour. I just wasn't expecting anyone to be in the middle of the road. I thought for sure they would pull me out for suspicion of drunk driving.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •