safety checkpoints

ps1mhd · Jun 29, 2013

Just read that KSP will be doing safety checkpoints in Oldham, Trimble, Henry, Owen,
Carroll and Gallatin Counties in July.

I know they can not search my car but what about asking to see registration, proof of ins and DLs.
Without a violation that they see what if any right do they have to stop me?
Of course I will be OCing and I know that's OK.

Mike

davidmcbeth · Jun 30, 2013

I think that, since its a legal seizure (whatt??? yes, a legal seizure) they can ask for your info just like any other traffic stop.

You do not have to talk of course.

CharleyCherokee · Jun 30, 2013

If they see the gun it is apparently ok for them to take you out of the car, steal your gun, and run your serial numbers to make sure you aren't a felon in possession of a stolen gun. I've heard that people who undergo this treatment are very thankful for it.

09jisaac · Jun 30, 2013

CharleyCherokee said:
If they see the gun it is apparently ok for them to take you out of the car, steal your gun, and run your serial numbers to make sure you aren't a felon in possession of a stolen gun. I've heard that people who undergo this treatment are very thankful for it.

I would be sure to tell them that it is unlawful for them to seize your firearm, even if it is only for a short time.

Does anyone know the legality of resisting an illegal action by police?

o3rugby1 · Jun 30, 2013

They will be doing these in Anderson Franklin Woodford and Fayette as well.ive been thru my fair share of these and never had an issue with a gun i just hand them my ccw drivers lic insurence etc. most of the time they just look at my plate to see if there expired and wave me on thru.

langzaiguy · Jun 30, 2013

I went through one a few months ago with no problem.

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?113399-Red-River-Gorge

56brd · Jul 1, 2013

All it will take is one Barney Fife participating in the stop, and he will do whatever he wishes. The local authority,
prosecutor and the Judge, will back the officer. It won't matter that the officer is wrong in every action he takes.
The average citizen has neither the time nor the money to fight the system long enough to come out on top. They
know this, and that is what they will try every time. This is just my humble opinion, but I have seen it occur more
than once.

Citizen · Jul 1, 2013

ps1mhd said:
Just read that KSP will be doing safety checkpoints in Oldham, Trimble, Henry, Owen,
Carroll and Gallatin Counties in July.

I know they can not search my car but what about asking to see registration, proof of ins and DLs.
Without a violation that they see what if any right do they have to stop me?
Of course I will be OCing and I know that's OK.

Mike

Roadblock, roadblock, roadblock. No sense in going along with the government's Orwellian terminology.

Just for flavor, try this: "safety roadblock". See? Suddenly it doesn't sound all warm and fuzzy.

Citizen · Jul 1, 2013

ps1mhd said:
SNIP Without a violation that they see what if any right do they have to stop me?

Not sure what you're asking, so I'll address two possibilities.

First, if you're caught in a roadblock, you're already seized, so there's not much point in asking if they have further right to stop you for no visible violation--that's how they stopped you in the first place: fishing for violations they couldn't see while you're rolling down the road.

Alternatively, if you're asking what right do they have to seize you in a suspicionless, fishing-expedition roadblock in the first place, the answer is, "Why, none, of course." But, that's never stopped 'em before. Government in this country has been grabbing more and more power literally since before ratification of the constitution. The US Supreme court approved of these safety roadblocks some years ago in direct violation of 4th Amendment probable cause and particularity principles.

56brd · Jul 1, 2013

gutshot said:
While what you say may be true, that doesn't mean that we can't file complaints with their bosses. They may go nowhere, but we might hit on that one officer that has a file full of complaints and they are looking for one more to can him or we hit that one boss who has respect for his oath of office and the rights of the people. In any case its worth doing just so we can say we tried everything. Doing nothing and whining about it accomplishes nothing.

I didn't say anyone should quit carrying. However I do think everyone should understand and every one should be prepared.
There are over zealous officers out there. No one knows who the are. No one should be surprised when they meet one. Have
a recording device running. If possible have a cell phone taking video. It is very very difficult to hold ones temper while being treated like a criminal. Let the LEO look like the criminal, don't raise ones voice. Give them absolutely nothing they can claim
to be a violation.

I certainly did not wish to imply we should give up. But we should also not just think, well I have been through several of
these, there won't be a problem. There can be a problem, It can get very expensive, it can be very time consuming, and
depending on your career, it could even cause you to loose your job.

KYGlockster · Jul 2, 2013

09jisaac said:
I would be sure to tell them that it is unlawful for them to seize your firearm, even if it is only for a short time.

Does anyone know the legality of resisting an illegal action by police?

Notwithstanding the provisions of KRS 503.050, the use of physical force by a defendant upon another person is not justifiable when:

(1) The defendant is resisting an arrest by a peace officer, recognized to be acting under color of official authority and using no more force than reasonably necessary to effect the arrest, although the arrest is UNLAWFUL;

Do not resist ANY unlawful action by a peace officer unless your life depends on it! The courts will sort everything out and by resisting you could possibly add more charges than you would've had to begin with.

Midwest · Jul 2, 2013

So these checkpoints can be anywhere in those counties mentioned and no one has to announce or publish the exact locations in advance like they do with the DUI/DWI checkpoints that they have in and around Cincinnati? I like to know if this is the case, why are drunk driving checkpoints legally different than 'safety' checkpoints? In both cases it is illegal to try to go around them to avoid them.

700 WLW Cincinnati mentions where the DUI/DWI checkpoints will be in advance. I'm sure its mentioned on TV and in the newspapers as well. Never heard anything about safety checkpoints.

DrakeZ07 · Jul 2, 2013

Midwest said:
So these checkpoints can be anywhere in those counties mentioned and no one has to announce or publish the exact locations in advance like they do with the DUI/DWI checkpoints that they have in and around Cincinnati? I like to know if this is the case, why are drunk driving checkpoints legally different than 'safety' checkpoints? In both cases it is illegal to try to go around them to avoid them.

700 WLW Cincinnati mentions where the DUI/DWI checkpoints will be in advance. I'm sure its mentioned on TV and in the newspapers as well. Never heard anything about safety checkpoints.

Please cite that tidbit. I've stopped short of plenty of DUI/"Safety" road blocks, and made a legal U-turn, or just by-passed them with other road connections, purely to avoid them, and have not been arrested, or pulled over, or harassed for doing such... Yet. And I've kinda assumed it was legal to avoid road-blocks, since I've read somewhere else on the forums [I think it was the General Discussion area] that a U.S. District court said its not illegal to avoid them; So, I took it to apply to Kentucky via the full faith and credit clause of the 4th Amendment.

*I've been googling it, and I can't find the exact case for it, but there is reference to a 1990 SCOTUS case involving the Michigan State Police, where it is found constitutional, but at the same time unconstitutional and acceptable.

**For better reading, I found this website article to be very informative, and responsive, critical and helpful, with a Constitutional/Liberty minded approach in most aspects. http://www.motorists.org/dui/roadblock

***I cannot find the district court case, and have not bothered to read the SCOTUS case, so research on your own and consult an attorney on your own dime to find out for yourself, but generally speaking from experiance, if you're not drunk, and not committing a crime, then you have nothing to worry about in make a LEGAL U-turn, or using side-roads, while avoiding a roadblock. And lets call it what it is, a ROADBLOCK, not a 'checkpoint', because you are being detained when stopped, and do not have freedom of movement.

Some other interesting things being, the cops have to stop ALL vehicles at a roadblock, OR pick every third, or fourth, vehicles to stop, and let others pass by. Any deviation of that plan, which has to be announced beforehand publicly, is considered illegal.

Furthermore, with our right to arms, and the fact that it isn't illegal to have a firearm, loaded or unloaded, in clear and open and plain view; I'd tell a cop to p*ss-off if they made a comment or tried to take my gun. They can take it, sure, but I'll make them squeal like a piggy when my lawyer sues them for all they're worth.

Midwest · Jul 2, 2013

DrakeZ07 said:
Please cite that tidbit. I've stopped short of plenty of DUI/"Safety" road blocks, and made a legal U-turn, or just by-passed them with other road connections, purely to avoid them, and have not been arrested, or pulled over, or harassed for doing such... Yet. And I've kinda assumed it was legal to avoid road-blocks, since I've read somewhere else on the forums [I think it was the General Discussion area] that a U.S. District court said its not illegal to avoid them; So, I took it to apply to Kentucky via the full faith and credit clause of the 4th Amendment.

*I've been googling it, and I can't find the exact case for it, but there is reference to a 1990 SCOTUS case involving the Michigan State Police, where it is found constitutional, but at the same time unconstitutional and acceptable.

**For better reading, I found this website article to be very informative, and responsive, critical and helpful, with a Constitutional/Liberty minded approach in most aspects. http://www.motorists.org/dui/roadblock

***I cannot find the district court case, and have not bothered to read the SCOTUS case, so research on your own and consult an attorney on your own dime to find out for yourself, but generally speaking from experiance, if you're not drunk, and not committing a crime, then you have nothing to worry about in make a LEGAL U-turn, or using side-roads, while avoiding a roadblock. And lets call it what it is, a ROADBLOCK, not a 'checkpoint', because you are being detained when stopped, and do not have freedom of movement.

Some other interesting things being, the cops have to stop ALL vehicles at a roadblock, OR pick every third, or fourth, vehicles to stop, and let others pass by. Any deviation of that plan, which has to be announced beforehand publicly, is considered illegal.

Furthermore, with our right to arms, and the fact that it isn't illegal to have a firearm, loaded or unloaded, in clear and open and plain view; I'd tell a cop to p*ss-off if they made a comment or tried to take my gun. They can take it, sure, but I'll make them squeal like a piggy when my lawyer sues them for all they're worth.

I found some interesting variations. Yes, 'roadblock' is a more direct term.

http://www.avvo.com/legal-guides/ug...ng-stopped-at-a-sobriety-checkpoint-roadblock

Chase" cars are stationed at each roadblock location, to chase down any drivers who turn around or turn away from a roadblock

Virtually every roadblock has an officer assigned to be the "Chase" car operator. He is waiting in an idling vehicle at a strategic vantage point to see any vehicles that may attempt to avoid the roadblock. These “chase” officers assume that ANY vehicle turning away from the roadblock is trying to avoid detection for possible impaired driving. Several cases across the US have held that citizens who do not wish to be delayed at a roadblock or citizens who believe they have happened upon an accident may find a safe, legal way to leave and not pass through the safety or sobriety checkpoint. Not every state’s decisional laws follow this guideline closely, however. In one roadblock case handled by the author, the only roadway possible to turn upon as cars approached the roadblock was a horseshoe-shaped road that emptied back onto the same roadway. Any car that made that turn, even if the turn was legal, was pulled over by the chase car. This roadblock was declared to be illegal.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here they say one block ahead

http://www.mcdonalddefense.com/2011...stop-sobriety-checkpoints-and-dui-roadblocks/

"You may turn around prior to the checkpoint: So long as you do not break any traffic laws or regulations, you have the right to turn around and take a different prior to being stopped at the checkpoint. That is, if you can turn off one block ahead of the actual checkpoint, you may do so to avoid the sobriety check."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It might vary from state to state (North Carolina)

http://www.ncids.org/Defender Train...lexander - Checkpoints After State V Rose.pdf

The Right to Turn Around
Perhaps the most natural response a person can have when faced with an impending checkpoint is to simply turn around. Unfortunately, the North Carolina Supreme Court has held that police officers at a checkpoint “may pursue and stop a vehicle which has turned away from a checkpoint within its perimeters for reasonable inquiry to determine why the vehicle turned away.”

CharleyCherokee · Jul 2, 2013

I can't recall the exact case, but I do recall reading that the Kentucky Supreme court ruled that avoiding a roadblock constituted RAS. You could be pulled over for doing this in Kentucky. This is certainly not the case in every state.

hammer6 · Jul 3, 2013

CharleyCherokee said:
I can't recall the exact case, but I do recall reading that the Kentucky Supreme court ruled that avoiding a roadblock constituted RAS. You could be pulled over for doing this in Kentucky. This is certainly not the case in every state.

and SCOTUS ruled that a roadblock doesn't infringe on your 4th amendment rights if you turn around prior to being next in line. look it up.

CharleyCherokee · Jul 3, 2013

That's interesting. I'll be sure to do that.

56brd · Jul 4, 2013

hammer6 said:
and SCOTUS ruled that a roadblock doesn't infringe on your 4th amendment rights if you turn around prior to being next in line. look it up.

I know I am inept when it comes to computers. I have tried to locate the this ruling. Could you post a link. I have spent
several hours looking with no avail. I would be interested in reading this ruling.

09jisaac · Jul 4, 2013

KYGlockster said:
Do not resist ANY unlawful action by a peace officer unless your life depends on it! The courts will sort everything out and by resisting you could possibly add more charges than you would've had to begin with.

I apologize Glockster, I didn't mean like resisting arrest.

I meant more along the lines of not following an unlawful request.

hammer6 · Jul 5, 2013

56brd said:
I know I am inept when it comes to computers. I have tried to locate the this ruling. Could you post a link. I have spent
several hours looking with no avail. I would be interested in reading this ruling.

GOOGLE is really helpful.... i typed in "scotus said turn around at dui checkpoint" and it came up on the first page...

safety checkpoints

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