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Thread: July 4th

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    July 4th

    I just recently bought my self a hand gun, and I am slowly trying to get into open carrying and concealing. How ever i dont have my cpl yet, I was curious if I can open care to grand heaven for july 4th. Ive tryed to do so some research on oc in Michigan but wasn't to successful since there isnt any law that prohibits oc, except for few safe areas. I know the question may seem dumb but Im not sure if i can OC since its a state park and a lot of people are present. If any one has any advice on the question or just oc, please let me know Im new to all this.

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Read Michigan State Police update #86 and the stickies here. Without a CPL you may OC on foot in a state park provided it is not somehow a place listed under 750.234d or a school. Know and understand how to legally transport a PISTOL. It can be sticky. After you read the stickies and MSP #86 please ask any questions you may have. It's ok if it's hard at first. We find there is a learning curve.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShieldOp View Post
    I just recently bought my self a hand gun, and I am slowly trying to get into open carrying and concealing. How ever i dont have my cpl yet, I was curious if I can open care to grand heaven for july 4th. Ive tryed to do so some research on oc in Michigan but wasn't to successful since there isnt any law that prohibits oc, except for few safe areas. I know the question may seem dumb but Im not sure if i can OC since its a state park and a lot of people are present. If any one has any advice on the question or just oc, please let me know Im new to all this.
    my first bit of advice is that it's illegal to conceal without a CPL so i would say that even if you're trying to get into concealing slowly, don't. wait until you have your CPL.
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
    http://www.graystatemovie.com/

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    July 4th

    @OP -- here's a great place to start reading about OC w/o a CPL:

    http://forums.michiganopencarry.org/....html#msg22906
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Regular Member FerretMI's Avatar
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    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FerretMI View Post
    yeah HE knows that it is there
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Re: July 4th

    Quote Originally Posted by smellslikemichigan View Post
    my first bit of advice is that it's illegal to conceal without a CPL so i would say that even if you're trying to get into concealing slowly, don't. wait until you have your CPL.
    Well, not entirely true...you may conceal without a CPL on property in which you have a proprietary interest (eg. your home)
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    July 4th

    Quote Originally Posted by FerretMI View Post
    True, but the thread I referred to has other helpful information in it.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  9. #9
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    doesn't "not to mention" imply that the information is in addition to the previous information?
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
    http://www.graystatemovie.com/

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    Thanks for all the replies, I think i am going to just get my cpl knocked out of the way and go with conceal, the law with oc definitely is more strict or seems like.
    I do got another question, i kinda read up on it on state police web page but didnt see an answer i was looking for, but I know i can open carry with out a cpl in state of Michigan, but soon as i enter a vehicle its considered concealed and must be placed in the trunk, but soon as i do put it in my trunk do i need to separate my load megs from the weapon or can they be in the same case in the trunk.

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShieldOp View Post
    can they be in the same case in the trunk.
    In the same case is fine.

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(yq1...ghlight=pistol

    (d) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in the trunk of the vehicle.
    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShieldOp View Post
    Thanks for all the replies, I think i am going to just get my cpl knocked out of the way and go with conceal, the law with oc definitely is more strict or seems like.
    I do got another question, i kinda read up on it on state police web page but didnt see an answer i was looking for, but I know i can open carry with out a cpl in state of Michigan, (but soon as i enter a vehicle its considered concealed) and must be placed in the trunk, but soon as i do put it in my trunk do i need to separate my load megs from the weapon or can they be in the same case in the trunk.
    It's not considered concealed, just prohibited without a CPL.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    July 4th

    Quote Originally Posted by ShieldOp View Post
    Thanks for all the replies, I think i am going to just get my cpl knocked out of the way and go with conceal, the law with oc definitely is more strict or seems like.
    .
    Once you get a CPL, you can actually open carry in more places than you can conceal carry. Read this for more info:

    http://www.michigan.gov/documents/ms...2_336854_7.pdf

    But...if you're going to OC in a so-called PFZ once you have your CPL, you should be aware of this:

    http://forums.michiganopencarry.org/....html#msg15251
    Last edited by TheQ; 07-01-2013 at 07:55 AM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Once you get a CPL, you can actually open carry in more places than you can conceal carry. Read this for more info:

    http://www.michigan.gov/documents/ms...2_336854_7.pdf

    But...if you're going to OC in a so-called PFZ once you have your CPL, you should be aware of this:

    http://forums.michiganopencarry.org/....html#msg15251
    Is this the only judge that has come out with this opinion? and wasn't she over turned on appeal? perhaps getting someone elected in her place would be a good idea?
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

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    I've heard it called by all sorts of acronyms, CWP (concealed weapons permit), CHL (concealed handguns license), but never CPL (concealed permit license? lol).

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by landon holt View Post
    I've heard it called by all sorts of acronyms, CWP (concealed weapons permit), CHL (concealed handguns license), but never CPL (concealed permit license? lol).
    Concealed Pistol License. Thats what they are called in Washington State.

    http://www.dol.wa.gov/business/firea...oncealfaq.html

    When do I need to have a concealed pistol license?
    By law, you must have a concealed pistol license (CPL) when you are:
    Carrying a pistol concealed on your person.
    Carrying or placing a loaded pistol in a vehicle.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by landon holt View Post
    I've heard it called by all sorts of acronyms, CWP (concealed weapons permit), CHL (concealed handguns license), but never CPL (concealed permit license? lol).
    Concealed Pistol License...it's the actual name of the MI license, all the other names and acronyms are incorrect.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    July 4th

    Quote Originally Posted by Raggs View Post
    Is this the only judge that has come out with this opinion? and wasn't she over turned on appeal? perhaps getting someone elected in her place would be a good idea?
    The answer to all of your questions (except the last one) are answered in the referred post. She was actually upheld on appeal. She let the guy off for technical reasons but wrote in her dicta OC in a PFZ is an absurd interpretation. She is the only judge to have ruled on this to my knowledge.

    As far as getting someone elected in her place -- that would require a lot of money and/or volunteers. Neither are plentiful. She is up for reelection this year, though. I'd like few things more than seeing her unseated.
    Last edited by TheQ; 07-01-2013 at 03:52 PM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  19. #19
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by landon holt View Post
    I've heard it called by all sorts of acronyms, CWP (concealed weapons permit), CHL (concealed handguns license), but never CPL (concealed permit license? lol).
    Maybe this helps...

    Arizona Concealed Weapon Permit;Arkansas Concealed Handgun License (OLD) Concealed Handgun Carry License (NEW);California License To Carry Concealed Pistol, Revolver, Or Other Firearm; Colorado Concealed Handgun Permit;Connecticut Permit to Carry Pistols and Revolvers;Delaware License To Carry A Concealed Deadly Weapon;Florida Concealed Weapon or Firearm License; Georgia Weapons Carry License;Idaho Concealed Weapons License;Indiana License to Carry Handgun;Iowa Nonprofessional Permit To Carry Weapons;Kentucky License To Carry Concealed Deadly Weapon/ Called "CCDW License" on state website;Louisiana Concealed Handgun Permit;Maine Concealed Handgun Permit;Maryland Permit To Carry a Handgun;Massachusetts License to Carry Firearms (Class A/ Class B);Michigan Concealed Pistol License;Minnesota Permit to Carry A Pistol;Mississippi Firearm Permit;Nebraska Concealed Handgun Permit;Nevada Concealed Firearm Permit;New Hampshire Revolver/Pistol License;New Mexico Concealed Handgun License;New York Pistol License;North Carolina Concealed Handgun Permit;Ohio License to Carry a Concealed Handgun;Oklahoma Concealed Weapon License;Oregon Concealed Handgun License;Pennsylvania License to Carry Firearms;Rhode Island Pistol Permit;South Carolina Concealed Weapons Permit;South Dakota Permit To Carry a Concealed Pistol;Tennessee Handgun Carry Permit;Texas Concealed Handgun License;Utah Concealed Firearm Permit;Virginia Permit to Carry a Concealed Handgun (Resident)Virginia Concealed Handgun Permit (Non-resident);Washington License To Carry Concealed Pistol;West Virginia Concealed Pistol/Revolver License or Concealed Pistol/Revolver Permit;Wisconsin Concealed Weapons License; Wyoming Concealed Firearm Permit
    Last edited by DrTodd; 07-01-2013 at 04:42 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  20. #20
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    The answer to all of your questions (except the last one) are answered in the referred post. She was actually upheld on appeal. She let the guy off for technical reasons but wrote in her dicta OC in a PFZ is an absurd interpretation. She is the only judge to have ruled on this to my knowledge.

    As far as getting someone elected in her place -- that would require a lot of money and/or volunteers. Neither are plentiful. She is up for reelection this year, though. I'd like few things more than seeing her unseated.

    "technical reasons"? The computers were not working at the courthouse?
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    July 4th

    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    "technical reasons"? The computers were not working at the courthouse?
    She ruled Mr. Watkins had no way of knowing the MSU pavilion was a Sports Arena and therefore he couldn't be responsible for violating 28.428o, as he was charged. As far the idea of OC in a PFZ, she wrote:

    “Mr. Watkins contends that the combination of these laws [750.234d and 28.425o and 28.425c(2)(a)] creates an exemption for all CPL holders from the prohibition on the open possession of firearms in so-called 'pistol-free zones.' However, this interpretation creates an absurd result where people could openly carry a shotgun down the hallway of an elementary school or into a packed stadium of over 70,000 people if they had a CPL. While the statutes seem to contradict each other, this court agrees with the trial court's interpretation that guns cannot be openly carried in a sports arena, even if the person has a CPL."

    People v Watkins, Docket No. 10-951-AR, 30th Circuit Court, Ingham Co., April 15, 2011
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Re: July 4th

    @Q - how are her (judge "A's" ) re-election chances looking? I can only hope crappy....
    Last edited by FreeInAZ; 07-01-2013 at 06:12 PM.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "You must be the change you wish to see in the world" by Mahatma Gandhi

    “Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values. Your values become your destiny.” by Mahatma Gandhi

  23. #23
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    July 4th

    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    @Q - how are her (judge "A's" ) re-election chances look? I can only hope crappy....
    Sadly, I've not yet heard of any serious contenders. More on that later this summer as the race develops. FWIW, I've tried and failed to recruit Steve Dulan (who lives in the district).
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  24. #24
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Re: July 4th

    Holy flying blue monkey bat crap! She will get to fly her broom around the court room for another term! Oh the humanity! This judge has done everything she can to flush gun rights (civil rights) down the toilet! Someone must stand up to her and toss a bucket of water her way.
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7GJcKuVGm8
    Last edited by FreeInAZ; 07-01-2013 at 06:13 PM.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "You must be the change you wish to see in the world" by Mahatma Gandhi

    “Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values. Your values become your destiny.” by Mahatma Gandhi

  25. #25
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    July 4th

    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    Holy flying blue monkey bat crap! She will get to fly her broom around the court room for another term! Oh the humanity! This judge has done everything she can to flush gun rights (civil rights) down the toilet! Someone must stand up to her and toss a bucket of water her way.
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7GJcKuVGm8

    Now, now...she did stand up for 4A and 5A in CADL v MOC...
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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