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Thread: Poll - Should CHP records be public

  1. #1
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Poll - Should CHP records be public

    The ink on the law is hardly dry and the Daily Pravda starts to whine. Would if they could publish a list of OCers

    http://www.dailypress.com/news/opini...0750,post.poll
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    I hate polls like that. The only logical answer is "No".

    But I don't really agree with that. I could go along with a simple check box on the application that said "Do you want this record to be public..yes/no".

    That way FOIA isn't being gutted but personal information is being protected.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    I hate polls like that. The only logical answer is "No".

    But I don't really agree with that. I could go along with a simple check box on the application that said "Do you want this record to be public..yes/no".

    That way FOIA isn't being gutted but personal information is being protected.
    Meanwhile there are all of the existing CHP holders swinging in the breeze
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member SFCRetired's Avatar
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    Don't have a dog in that particular hunt, but it strikes me that, should your application have a box to be checked, some idiot bureaucrat would ignore the forms with the box checked "No" and "accidentally" release the information.

    So far, here in Alabama, we do not have that problem. The local sheriff's office is supposed to be the only one maintaining, and having access to, those records.

    Just for the record, guys, you do know that a lot of us, and not just in Alabama, look at what you folks in Virginia are doing and use a lot of it as guidance. Keep up the good work!!
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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Good law? Certainly seems to be a good law. Late in coming it seems.

    MO has had a similar situation now rectified by a good law. But, the toothpaste is out of the tube for many.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Good law? Certainly seems to be a good law. Late in coming it seems.

    MO has had a similar situation now rectified by a good law. But, the toothpaste is out of the tube for many.
    Teeth paste if you please
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member The Wolfhound's Avatar
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    Do I have the right....

    To know who belongs to a particular license plate? Do I have the right to know which of my neighbors is taking anti-anxiety meds? Do I have the right to know the criminal history of my neightbors? Hmm, it seems they have a right to privacy. SO DO I!

    poll at 77% in our favor.
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    78% - wonder how soon the poll will be closed?
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Campaign Veteran roscoe13's Avatar
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    It'll be interesting to see if they're still showing up on publicly accessible court dockets....

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Good law? Certainly seems to be a good law. Late in coming it seems.
    .
    Yep, great law!

    A few years ago I heard a rumor that the Judge in Lunenburg was refusing to accept Hunter Safety Certificates as proof of training.

    It took me about a half hour to look at enough denials to confirm it. Three minutes on the phone with his Secretary corrected the problem.

    That won't happen anymore because the County can operate in the shadows now....Yep a good law.

    There are a lot of ways this law could have been written and the overwhelming choice.....was the worst possible one.
    But then again, I don't have a dog in this fight and whatever interest I took in CHP abuses is over.

  12. #12
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    For proper context.
    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    I hate polls like that. The only logical answer is "No".

    But I don't really agree with that. I could go along with a simple check box on the application that said "Do you want this record to be public..yes/no".

    That way FOIA isn't being gutted but personal information is being protected.
    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Yep, great law!

    A few years ago I heard a rumor that the Judge in Lunenburg was refusing to accept Hunter Safety Certificates as proof of training.

    It took me about a half hour to look at enough denials to confirm it. Three minutes on the phone with his Secretary corrected the problem.

    That won't happen anymore because the County can operate in the shadows now....Yep a good law.

    There are a lot of ways this law could have been written and the overwhelming choice.....was the worst possible one.
    But then again, I don't have a dog in this fight and whatever interest I took in CHP abuses is over.
    I am held at a disadvantage Sir. is the law good or bad? Or, is the previous unacceptable condition now a desirable condition? Anyway, the less a bureaucrat can divulge to my fellow citizens about me the more betterer I think I will be.....in the long run.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    For proper context.

    I am held at a disadvantage Sir. is the law good or bad? Or, is the previous unacceptable condition now a desirable condition? .
    That's pretty simple. IMO, it's bad! They are now exempted from the requirement to provide information which means that they can require extralegal things and the pattern can't be established.

    A chunk of Open Government has been removed.

    It's also another law without teeth. No penalty was put in the statute for violation...I know, there will be a mighty cry..."We'll sue". Yep, I'm sure someone will fork out five or six grand just to hear the Judge say "Mistakes will happen".

    There were better options. One would be to allow applicants to Opt Out and their file would be sealed by the court.
    Another would be to simply make it illegal to publish those lists....For instance,

    In Va, it's illegal to publish a picture of someone simply to harass them, if that person is a Police officer, it's a felony. Something similar would have worked better and left the Clerks Office open to scrutiny.

    As it is, it's illegal to release information with no consequences if they do (Except maybe an election issue)
    Last edited by peter nap; 07-02-2013 at 01:34 PM.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    I am off my meds it appears.

    The ability to gain a complete list of CCW holders in VA is good because it maintains a avenue into a government bureaucrat acts.

    Or, access by the public to the complete list of CCW holders is bad.

    I guess this issue is far above my meager intellect. Here in MO the CCW law(s) clearly seal the list to public scrutiny. Is this not the same desire in VA?

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    I hate polls like that. The only logical answer is "No".

    But I don't really agree with that. I could go along with a simple check box on the application that said "Do you want this record to be public..yes/no".

    That way FOIA isn't being gutted but personal information is being protected.
    This is a privacy concern ... and each person has their own limits regarding privacy concerns..

    I say let the person decide ...

    Just MO of course. I don't like FOIA exemptions for privacy when the record's privacy isn't an issue for the person.

  16. #16
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    I am off my meds it appears.

    The ability to gain a complete list of CCW holders in VA is good because it maintains a avenue into a government bureaucrat acts.

    Or, access by the public to the complete list of CCW holders is bad.

    I guess this issue is far above my meager intellect. Here in MO the CCW law(s) clearly seal the list to public scrutiny. Is this not the same desire in VA?
    Intrusion into ones privacy is bad but eliminating part of a law that is intended to control Government abuses is bad also. If it sounds like I'm not real sympathetic to CHP holders, I'm not.

    It's common knowledge that the records were open to the public and CHP holders ignored that and got one anyway.

    Then when it was used against them, they started crying foul.
    The result is a weaker open government law, the chance for Clerks to quietly do as they please without much oversight and still no real guarantee of privacy.

    I have no idea what Mo's law does or says. I have enough to keep up with here.
    Last edited by peter nap; 07-02-2013 at 04:31 PM.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
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    With all due deference to our own Peter Nap, the current breakdown on the poll, which is open to the general public is:

    Should the names of concealed weapons permit holders be public record?
    11% Yes / 86% No / 1% Don't know / 2% Don't care

    I would fully expect among OCDO members that 86% No is quite a bit higher still.

    Just as there are many ways to protect privacy, there are also many ways to uncover wrongdoing, this board itself being a fine example. Someone has to make an initial allegation of impropriety, and we have the numbers here to chase out and confirm just about anything that might ever need to be. It just might take a little longer.

    TFred
    Last edited by TFred; 07-02-2013 at 05:37 PM.

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    Regular Member POPS VA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    With all due deference to our own Peter Nap, the current breakdown on the poll, which is open to the general public is:

    Should the names of concealed weapons permit holders be public record?
    11% Yes / 86% No / 1% Don't know / 2% Don't care

    I would fully expect among OCDO members that 86% No is quite a bit higher still.

    Just as there are many ways to protect privacy, there are also many ways to uncover wrongdoing, this board itself being a fine example. Someone has to make an initial allegation of impropriety, and we have the numbers here to chase out and confirm just about anything that might ever need to be. It just might take a little longer.

    TFred
    I agree with you TFred but on the other hand Peter has a valid point, there has to be transparancy with public records,(I want to know where the pedophiles are) and we can't pick and choose what works for one group or another. Had I known when I got my CHP that I was on a list (I hate being on a list) I might not have applied, This is my bad. But I don't believe for a minute that the gubbmint would not use this law in the future to create law to futher fog the access of public knowledge in other venues. JMHO

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by POPS VA View Post
    I agree with you TFred but on the other hand Peter has a valid point, there has to be transparancy with public records,(I want to know where the pedophiles are) and we can't pick and choose what works for one group or another. Had I known when I got my CHP that I was on a list (I hate being on a list) I might not have applied, This is my bad. But I don't believe for a minute that the gubbmint would not use this law in the future to create law to futher fog the access of public knowledge in other venues. JMHO
    It is only paranoia when it isn't true
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member POPS VA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    It is only paranoia when it isn't true
    Amen sir

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    Smile

    87% no!

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    of course another aspect is that the records should never exist .. need permission to carry? need papers?

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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    I thought this had already been discussed wrt the harm that it can cause.

    Abusive spouses can find their targets, for example.

  24. #24
    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by POPS VA View Post
    I agree with you TFred but on the other hand Peter has a valid point, there has to be transparancy with public records,(I want to know where the pedophiles are) and we can't pick and choose what works for one group or another. Had I known when I got my CHP that I was on a list (I hate being on a list) I might not have applied, This is my bad. But I don't believe for a minute that the gubbmint would not use this law in the future to create law to futher fog the access of public knowledge in other venues. JMHO
    Awful analogy. Pedophiles are convicted criminals. CHP holders are law-abiding citizens who are once again following current law in order to give themselves yet another self-defense alternative. Surely you are not equating the two...

  25. #25
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    Awful analogy. Pedophiles are convicted criminals. CHP holders are law-abiding citizens who are once again following current law in order to give themselves yet another self-defense alternative. Surely you are not equating the two...
    Pedophiles are not by definition "convicted" criminals. The tendency is abhorrent and considered potentially harmful. Still it is the "action" of the individual that determines if a charge and resulting conviction might occur.

    Yes, we hope that all are law abiding and conduct themselves with regard to the safety of others.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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