Poll - Should CHP records be public

Grapeshot · Jul 2, 2013

The ink on the law is hardly dry and the Daily Pravda starts to whine. Would if they could publish a list of OCers :lol:

http://www.dailypress.com/news/opin...be-public-record-20130701,0,5270750,post.poll

peter nap · Jul 2, 2013

I hate polls like that. The only logical answer is "No".

But I don't really agree with that. I could go along with a simple check box on the application that said "Do you want this record to be public..yes/no".

That way FOIA isn't being gutted but personal information is being protected.

Grapeshot · Jul 2, 2013

peter nap said:
I hate polls like that. The only logical answer is "No".

But I don't really agree with that. I could go along with a simple check box on the application that said "Do you want this record to be public..yes/no".

That way FOIA isn't being gutted but personal information is being protected.

Meanwhile there are all of the existing CHP holders swinging in the breeze :uhoh:

SFCRetired · Jul 2, 2013

Don't have a dog in that particular hunt, but it strikes me that, should your application have a box to be checked, some idiot bureaucrat would ignore the forms with the box checked "No" and "accidentally" release the information.

So far, here in Alabama, we do not have that problem. The local sheriff's office is supposed to be the only one maintaining, and having access to, those records.

Just for the record, guys, you do know that a lot of us, and not just in Alabama, look at what you folks in Virginia are doing and use a lot of it as guidance. Keep up the good work!!

OC for ME · Jul 2, 2013

Good law? Certainly seems to be a good law. Late in coming it seems.

MO [strike]has[/strike] had a similar situation now rectified by a good law. But, the toothpaste is out of the tube for many.

Grapeshot · Jul 2, 2013

OC for ME said:
Good law? Certainly seems to be a good law. Late in coming it seems.

MO [strike]has[/strike] had a similar situation now rectified by a good law. But, the toothpaste is out of the tube for many.

Teeth paste if you please

The Wolfhound · Jul 2, 2013

Do I have the right....

To know who belongs to a particular license plate? Do I have the right to know which of my neighbors is taking anti-anxiety meds? Do I have the right to know the criminal history of my neightbors? Hmm, it seems they have a right to privacy. SO DO I!

poll at 77% in our favor.

Grapeshot · Jul 2, 2013

78% - wonder how soon the poll will be closed? :lol:

roscoe13 · Jul 2, 2013

It'll be interesting to see if they're still showing up on publicly accessible court dockets....

Roscoe

peter nap · Jul 2, 2013

OC for ME said:
Good law? Certainly seems to be a good law. Late in coming it seems.
.

Yep, great law!

A few years ago I heard a rumor that the Judge in Lunenburg was refusing to accept Hunter Safety Certificates as proof of training.

It took me about a half hour to look at enough denials to confirm it. Three minutes on the phone with his Secretary corrected the problem.

That won't happen anymore because the County can operate in the shadows now....Yep a good law.:uhoh:

There are a lot of ways this law could have been written and the overwhelming choice.....was the worst possible one.
But then again, I don't have a dog in this fight and whatever interest I took in CHP abuses is over.

OC for ME · Jul 2, 2013

For proper context.

peter nap said:
I hate polls like that. The only logical answer is "No".

But I don't really agree with that. I could go along with a simple check box on the application that said "Do you want this record to be public..yes/no".

That way FOIA isn't being gutted but personal information is being protected.

peter nap said:
Yep, great law!

A few years ago I heard a rumor that the Judge in Lunenburg was refusing to accept Hunter Safety Certificates as proof of training.

It took me about a half hour to look at enough denials to confirm it. Three minutes on the phone with his Secretary corrected the problem.

That won't happen anymore because the County can operate in the shadows now....Yep a good law.:uhoh:

There are a lot of ways this law could have been written and the overwhelming choice.....was the worst possible one.
But then again, I don't have a dog in this fight and whatever interest I took in CHP abuses is over.

I am held at a disadvantage Sir. is the law good or bad? Or, is the previous unacceptable condition now a desirable condition? Anyway, the less a bureaucrat can divulge to my fellow citizens about me the more betterer I think I will be.....in the long run.

peter nap · Jul 2, 2013

OC for ME said:
For proper context.

I am held at a disadvantage Sir. is the law good or bad? Or, is the previous unacceptable condition now a desirable condition? .

That's pretty simple. IMO, it's bad! They are now exempted from the requirement to provide information which means that they can require extralegal things and the pattern can't be established.

A chunk of Open Government has been removed.

It's also another law without teeth. No penalty was put in the statute for violation...I know, there will be a mighty cry..."We'll sue". Yep, I'm sure someone will fork out five or six grand just to hear the Judge say "Mistakes will happen".

There were better options. One would be to allow applicants to Opt Out and their file would be sealed by the court.
Another would be to simply make it illegal to publish those lists....For instance,

In Va, it's illegal to publish a picture of someone simply to harass them, if that person is a Police officer, it's a felony. Something similar would have worked better and left the Clerks Office open to scrutiny.

As it is, it's illegal to release information with no consequences if they do (Except maybe an election issue)

OC for ME · Jul 2, 2013

I am off my meds it appears.

The ability to gain a complete list of CCW holders in VA is good because it maintains a avenue into a government bureaucrat acts.

Or, access by the public to the complete list of CCW holders is bad.

I guess this issue is far above my meager intellect. Here in MO the CCW law(s) clearly seal the list to public scrutiny. Is this not the same desire in VA?

davidmcbeth · Jul 2, 2013

peter nap said:
I hate polls like that. The only logical answer is "No".

But I don't really agree with that. I could go along with a simple check box on the application that said "Do you want this record to be public..yes/no".

That way FOIA isn't being gutted but personal information is being protected.

This is a privacy concern ... and each person has their own limits regarding privacy concerns..

I say let the person decide ...

Just MO of course. I don't like FOIA exemptions for privacy when the record's privacy isn't an issue for the person.

peter nap · Jul 2, 2013

OC for ME said:
I am off my meds it appears.

The ability to gain a complete list of CCW holders in VA is good because it maintains a avenue into a government bureaucrat acts.

Or, access by the public to the complete list of CCW holders is bad.

I guess this issue is far above my meager intellect. Here in MO the CCW law(s) clearly seal the list to public scrutiny. Is this not the same desire in VA?

Intrusion into ones privacy is bad but eliminating part of a law that is intended to control Government abuses is bad also. If it sounds like I'm not real sympathetic to CHP holders, I'm not.

It's common knowledge that the records were open to the public and CHP holders ignored that and got one anyway.

Then when it was used against them, they started crying foul.
The result is a weaker open government law, the chance for Clerks to quietly do as they please without much oversight and still no real guarantee of privacy.

I have no idea what Mo's law does or says. I have enough to keep up with here.

TFred · Jul 2, 2013

Nightmare said:
ATM
yes/no/don't know/don't care
77/310/8/17

With all due deference to our own Peter Nap, the current breakdown on the poll, which is open to the general public is:

Should the names of concealed weapons permit holders be public record?
11% Yes / 86% No / 1% Don't know / 2% Don't care

I would fully expect among OCDO members that 86% No is quite a bit higher still.

Just as there are many ways to protect privacy, there are also many ways to uncover wrongdoing, this board itself being a fine example. Someone has to make an initial allegation of impropriety, and we have the numbers here to chase out and confirm just about anything that might ever need to be. It just might take a little longer.

TFred

POPS VA · Jul 2, 2013

TFred said:
With all due deference to our own Peter Nap, the current breakdown on the poll, which is open to the general public is:

Should the names of concealed weapons permit holders be public record?
11% Yes / 86% No / 1% Don't know / 2% Don't care

I would fully expect among OCDO members that 86% No is quite a bit higher still.

Just as there are many ways to protect privacy, there are also many ways to uncover wrongdoing, this board itself being a fine example. Someone has to make an initial allegation of impropriety, and we have the numbers here to chase out and confirm just about anything that might ever need to be. It just might take a little longer.

TFred

I agree with you TFred but on the other hand Peter has a valid point, there has to be transparancy with public records,(I want to know where the pedophiles are) and we can't pick and choose what works for one group or another. Had I known when I got my CHP that I was on a list (I hate being on a list) I might not have applied, This is my bad. But I don't believe for a minute that the gubbmint would not use this law in the future to create law to futher fog the access of public knowledge in other venues. JMHO

Grapeshot · Jul 2, 2013

POPS VA said:
I agree with you TFred but on the other hand Peter has a valid point, there has to be transparancy with public records,(I want to know where the pedophiles are) and we can't pick and choose what works for one group or another. Had I known when I got my CHP that I was on a list (I hate being on a list) I might not have applied, This is my bad. But I don't believe for a minute that the gubbmint would not use this law in the future to create law to futher fog the access of public knowledge in other venues. JMHO

It is only paranoia when it isn't true :uhoh:

POPS VA · Jul 2, 2013

Grapeshot said:
It is only paranoia when it isn't true :uhoh:

Amen sir

hafnhaf · Jul 2, 2013

87% no!

Poll - Should CHP records be public

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