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Thread: Why is there not an Open Carry Association?

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    Regular Member BroadwayJoe's Avatar
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    Why is there not an Open Carry Association?

    The NRA has a large following and a huge voice for 2A advocates, but they are anti open carry. Why hasn't OCA or Open Carry Association to fight for the people been started? Just curious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BroadwayJoe View Post
    The NRA has a large following and a huge voice for 2A advocates, but they are anti open carry. Why hasn't OCA or Open Carry Association to fight for the people been started? Just curious.
    hmm, interesting. I dont think the NRA is against OC but they are for CC. They go where the sheep will go. There are alot of cc people who dont like OC and they just dont get "Lberty". OC IS the 2A.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Why is there not an Open Carry Association?

    Not sure that I see the need for one - at least not on a national level.

    IMHO such an organization becomes exclusive in what it promotes and furthers the unnecessary wedge between OC & CC. The combined efforts by practitioners of both styles will yield greater benefits than divided camps. Even here on OCDO we accept that some people will prefer CC and that is their right. Others won't carry at all (not yet anyway) and that is their choice. Still others will move back and forth for sundry reasons.

    My local state organization, VCDL (Virginia Citizens Defense League) does not dictate how one should carry, though many (most?) members do OC frequently. There are other states that have org.s that promote primarily OC - they know their market and needs better than I do, so I will not criticize their direction.

    I think that the ultimate quest/goal, indeed the Holy Grail, is Constitutional Carry which in itself does not promote one method of carry over the other - such leaves the choice to the individual.

    Meanwhile, OCDO admirably provides a source of information state by state and nationally to educate, promote and defend the right to open carry a properly holstered handgun as we go about our normal everyday lives. Now that may be a niche market........but nobody does it better.

    BTW - JPFO agrees that we are winning and cites to OCDO.
    http://jpfo.org/alerts2013/alert20130703.htm
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 07-04-2013 at 01:14 AM. Reason: added
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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Re: Why is there not an Open Carry Association?

    Quote Originally Posted by BroadwayJoe View Post
    The NRA has a large following and a huge voice for 2A advocates, but they are anti open carry. Why hasn't OCA or Open Carry Association to fight for the people been started? Just curious.
    Great question. I say it couldn't hurt. Maybe start it out at the individual state level & coordinate from there..?

    I would say have gatherings and invite all people interested OC/CC/ No Carry but support rights. The way to get momentum is to win the public opinion. OC is not about just gun rights, it is about all rights. Without the freedom to defend them, our rights might as well be written on toilet paper, IMHO.
    Last edited by FreeInAZ; 07-04-2013 at 03:15 AM.
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    Great question. I say it couldn't hurt. Maybe start it out at the individual state level & coordinate from there..?

    I would say have gatherings and invite all people interested OC/CC/ No Carry but support rights. The way to get momentum is to win the public opinion. OC is not about just gun rights, it is about all rights. Without the freedom to defend them, our rights might as well be written on toilet paper, IMHO.
    My question is - why do you believe such an organization is needed? Between the national and the various state "gun rights" organizations the Second Amendment is pretty well covered - or at least there are folks out there fighting to try and keep if from being completely done away with. Where is OC under attack - as opposed to the notion of any sort of carrying being under attack? In the few places where CC is the only lawful carry mode OC is making advances through grass roots efforts. Succesful advances.

    Bring another player into the game and IMHO you are going to bleed off time, money and energy im establishing the organization and developing a reputation - all of which will compete with the existing groups. If OCers split off and form their own organization the forces opposing gun rights in general and OC in particular will claim the gun rights movement is fracturing and will use the new organization to drive a wedge between OCers and the rest of the gun rights folks. "Surely we must all hang together, or we will surely all hang separately."

    I'm open to hearing why you want to have an OC Club.

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    Regular Member BroadwayJoe's Avatar
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    Grass roots efforts at local state levels definitely have the biggest impact IMO, however, the "name brand" recognition of a unified organization could help with momentum as well as unifying those state organizations fighting for said rights. It is not that OC is under attack per say, but the sheeple are still not privy to or educated enough to know it is their given right. An organization like the NRA has the funds and backing to make a big impact to the sheeple through media channels, public figures as well as a political splash. With any large organization there is greed and corruption (government, church etc), I am sure it is no different with organizations like the NRA, but I still feel that an OCA to fight for 2A rights, although maybe not a necessity, couldn't hurt. I have read on more than one occasions that mentioned that the NRA was anti open carry as they receive funding for CC and therefore advocate it. I do not know the validity to such statements, but I cant recall the NRA ever promoting or mentioning anything related to Open Carry. Just some food for thought.

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Re: Why is there not an Open Carry Association?

    Ok - fair question skid. I was looking at it from a #'s point of view. Take MI for example: of it's residents approx. 350,000 have CPL's. So if the eligible population (non prohibited) Men & Women 18+ years of age chose to exercise their right to carry openly under MI. Const. A1 sect.6 & US 2A, that would be MILLIONS. Now multiply that by the other 40+ states where OC is legal and that number gets huge if nurtured. Harder to take away rights from tens of' millions of LAC's. Plus this would go along way in normallizing LAC carrying in the general population. Just MHO.
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    I hate to be Capt. Obvious, but OCDO is the Open Carry association.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    I hate to be Capt. Obvious, but OCDO is the Open Carry association.
    I think that John and Mike would dispute this assertion. I believe they would say that this is a forum only, one that they own, and is not an association, which would imply self-governance. OCDO is a wonderful place for such associations to discuss OC, but is decidedly not those associations or an association.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Meanwhile, OCDO admirably provides a source of information state by state and nationally to educate, promote and defend the right to open carry a properly holstered handgun as we go about our normal everyday lives. Now that may be a niche market........but nobody does it better.
    This is Truth!
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Regular Member BroadwayJoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    I think that John and Mike would dispute this assertion. I believe they would say that this is a forum only, one that they own, and is not an association, which would imply self-governance. OCDO is a wonderful place for such associations to discuss OC, but is decidedly not those associations or an association.
    I would have to agree with eye95 here. While OCDO is a great tool for Joe citizen to educate himself on his rights, and to speak to like minded individuals, it is not a large scale association with a load voice, it is simply a place of resource and discussion.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    I hate to be Capt. Obvious, but OCDO is the Open Carry association.
    +1 Gadzillion

    OCDO probably has done more for OC than any lobby organization ever could. The problem with lobbyists is they are in it for the money. A OC lobbyist organization would flow in the direction of the dollar, like the NRA. You can't count on politicians/lobbyists to struggle for OC, they will make deals, just look at what happened in Illinois. ISRA and NRA sold out the Illinois gun owners, because there is no money in unlicensed OC.

    Probably our efforts should be pointed towards the gun manufacturers who have also taken a concealed carry stance. Oddly Hi Point is about the only company that sells guns that are only suited for open carry. We should be letting the big players know that they are missing a large market by giving money to NRA, and other organizations that frown on OC.
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroadwayJoe View Post
    I would have to agree with eye95 here. While OCDO is a great tool for Joe citizen to educate himself on his rights, and to speak to like minded individuals, it is not a large scale association with a load voice, it is simply a place of resource and discussion.
    Perhaps you would see things differently, if you took a closer look at who reads and follows OCDO. At any given time, non-registered users exceed "members" by about 300% or more (There are currently 716 users online. 197 members and 519 guests). These "guests" are politicians, media, your neighbors, clergy, LEOs, mothers, children, and yes antis.

    John and Mike (OCDO owners) are active on a state and national level, travel, appear on television, are quoted in publications and lead with a praticed hand.

    OCDO is seen. OCDO is read. OCDO is having an impact. OCDO's voice is loud and clear and ever so effective.

    Must we pay dues to be recognized? Send John a check......he'll accept it.

    Who do you think more than anyone else is responsible for the acceptance and growth of OC? Ans: OCDO

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Just take a look at states that OC is only available with a CC privilege card. Those people have no choice YET they still OC, that is because of OCDO. NC is unlicensed OC state, but since the inception of the CHP law OC gradually suffered, it is OCDO that has brought it's numbers back up. It is OCDO that informs people they can legally OC without a permit, or with one in some states. Education and activism is far more powerful than some association bribing politicians behind our backs. Bribers are usually easily bribed, and there is the problem with associations.

    OCDO is probably the only true voice of the second amendment nationwide, and they don't charge you a penny for it.
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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Re: Why is there not an Open Carry Association?

    Guy's how many OCers do you think there are doing so today? Maybe 10,000 - 20,000 - 30,000 across the country if we're lucky? It is VERY easy to write off that size group of people in DC. 10 Million on the other hand is a very difficult number to dismiss. That was my point. .... carry on...
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    Guy's how many OCers do you think there are doing so today? Maybe 10,000 - 20,000 - 30,000 across the country if we're lucky? It is VERY easy to write off that size group of people in DC. 10 Million on the other hand is a very difficult number to dismiss. That was my point. .... carry on...
    That is not the litmus test - the number perceived to be OCing at any given moment is less important than the number that support the right, the choice to carry for self-defense. In that we have overwhelming support IMO - that cannot be ignored. It is not being ignored.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    The squeaky wheel gets the grease even if there are 17 other wheels that are silent. The NRA greases their own wheels.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    +1 Gadzillion.
    Thanks.

    For the naysayers, I would point out that the key factor of an association is that the members associate. Instead of monthly meetings being the primary acts of associating, we associate daily by internet. Even so, local groups do get together for dinners, picnics, and such. I think there have even been a few shoots.

    Do we have dues? No. But, some of us do periodically send John some money to help defray the cost of maintaining the forum. Do we have a governance? Of sorts--our associating must be done within certain rules (forum rules). In this sense--very limited governance--ours is rather libertarian association. People can come and go, join or quit, as they please.

    Are we as formalized as the NRA? No. But, why should we? Our lobbyists are volunteers. Our association has none of the hallmarks of a bureaucracy that whose main focus has become self-perpetuation for employment of the bureaucrats. We don't have power-grabs.

    What's not to like?
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Re: Why is there not an Open Carry Association?

    No one is saying either or here. AZCDL has 9,000 + paying members, yet all work is unpaid & done by volunteers. Without this group AZ would not be a constitutional carry state and mostly have some pretty crappy gun law as it did in the past. You want laws changed/passed it takes money! Not right - but that is the hand we're dealt currently. How much money does OCDO have? Not much I would say. Not a bad thing as it is not focused on changing / creating laws that favor rights. It's focus is education & it does it better than most.

    We are comparing apples and oranges. To squeeze apple and expect orange juice is very unrealistic. But then so are some here.
    Last edited by FreeInAZ; 07-04-2013 at 11:58 AM.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Just from my own experience over the years there were more open carriers before 1995 in North Carolina then there are now. Even with the movement of open carry. AZ is not like our state unfortunately, different group, different politicians. Different court rulings. There is a clear hatred for OC by the leader of the association in NC that claims to representing all gun owners. We are on the verge of going the opposite direction. If not for court rulings in the past we would have already lost. Lobbyists are trying to legislate around those court rulings.

    Why is there that hatred? My best guess is constitutional open carry stands in the way of the huge concealed carry industry. Money brings power and power corrupts. Some of us here have stood in his way, and actually stalled passage of more privilege legislation to eventually do away with open carry. If not for OCDO and his mistake of coming here and insulting us, many OC supporters in this state would not know his true feelings. I thank him for that.

    I disagree with some on this site who wish to extend a hand to those who hate us, as long as the main body, and leaders of CC continue to trash OC, and fight to do away with the right. I will fight those associations, and the concealed carry itself.

    IMO for us to gain respect as open carry we need to fight, not wallow with those who wish to demean and take it away. And that has been most of the associations. We are pure because we are driven by rights, and the constitution without being corrupted by making money.
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    Regular Member BroadwayJoe's Avatar
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    This OCA was just an interesting thought that crossed my mind and wondered the opinions of others. While this site I am certain has done more than anything out there for Open Carry, even if not an association, localized chapters with national collaborate efforts hosting awareness events etc. would definitely have a larger impact then the forum alone. It does not necessarily have to be an official association so to speak, but by having state "governance" for lack of a better word with local chapters all cooperating nationally, this could potentially have a much larger impact and voice then it does currently,even without being an association like an NRA. It could be done through Grass Root movements, or OCDO North Carolina Chapter for example. As far as members, or membership dues, I am pretty sure there are several that wouldn't mind contributing a small amount if the end justified the means. For example, having OCDO colorful brochures (state specific) to hand out to John Q. citizens a few hours a week with a table set up in front of a grocery store or whatever. I guess my point is, when there is something bigger then yourself, it is easier to attract people to join the cause. Few will volunteer to do these kind of things alone, but in numbers, build it and they will come. Just my .02 cents.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroadwayJoe View Post
    This OCA was just an interesting thought that crossed my mind and wondered the opinions of others. While this site I am certain has done more than anything out there for Open Carry, even if not an association, localized chapters with national collaborate efforts hosting awareness events etc. would definitely have a larger impact then the forum alone. It does not necessarily have to be an official association so to speak, but by having state "governance" for lack of a better word with local chapters all cooperating nationally, this could potentially have a much larger impact and voice then it does currently,even without being an association like an NRA. It could be done through Grass Root movements, or OCDO North Carolina Chapter for example. As far as members, or membership dues, I am pretty sure there are several that wouldn't mind contributing a small amount if the end justified the means. For example, having OCDO colorful brochures (state specific) to hand out to John Q. citizens a few hours a week with a table set up in front of a grocery store or whatever. I guess my point is, when there is something bigger then yourself, it is easier to attract people to join the cause. Few will volunteer to do these kind of things alone, but in numbers, build it and they will come. Just my .02 cents.
    You do realize you are describing GRNC, and they have attacked anybody who gets in their way. Up to the point of publishing a persons home address, where that person worked, and where her children went to school. What you would end up with is war with this organization that you cannot win on the organization level. The only people that could change that organization are the members, and they don't, they make excuses for their leader. It is much the same as any organization in Illinois would have to fight the ISRA, and there was once a small organization doing that. I don't exactly know what happened to them.
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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    NRA anti-OC? News to me.. I've OC'd into their national headquarters building many, many times (like perhaps three dozen or more) and never had a problem.
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    They are not as anti-OC as some, but they decidedly are.

    Years ago I informed them of their misrepresentation of the law in AL regarding OC. They couldn't care less. I haven't been a member of the NRA since, and won't ever be until they amend their ways and take a pro-no-permission-required-to-carry stance.

    Any organization that so actively supports licensing the Right does not advocate the same things that I do. Not even close enough to be tolerable.

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    Regular Member BroadwayJoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    They are not as anti-OC as some, but they decidedly are.

    Years ago I informed them of their misrepresentation of the law in AL regarding OC. They couldn't care less. I haven't been a member of the NRA since, and won't ever be until they amend their ways and take a pro-no-permission-required-to-carry stance.

    Any organization that so actively supports licensing the Right does not advocate the same things that I do. Not even close enough to be tolerable.
    I find this interesting. According to the North Carolina Constitution, Article 1 Section 30, it spells out a clear opposition to conceal carry, or at least that is how I am perceiving it, am I misinterpreting?

    A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; and, as standing armies in time of peace are dangerous to liberty, they shall not be maintained, and the military shall be kept under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power. Nothing herein shall justify the practice of carrying concealed weapons, or prevent the General Assembly from enacting penal statutes against that practice.

    I find the following quite interesting too- "as standing armies in time of peace are dangerous to liberty, they shall not be maintained, and the military shall be kept under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power."

    I know our forefathers would be rolling in their graves with the current "liberty" and "rights" the civil people really have.

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