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OT: Warning shots fired when Issaquah man parasails near Chelan Falls

notalawyer

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2012
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1,061
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Florida
This seems false. There are several types of airspace... Class B, C, & D Airspace exists from the ground up to a varying height based on the class type. In class B airspace you need ATC clearance and direct vectors. Violation of their vectors has serious consequences. If you are in Class B airspace, the FAA owns you. For visual reference look here: http://macklow.com/airspace/airspace-chart-large.gif

However, since this most likely happened in Class G airspace, let's address that. Aircraft must fly 700' above ground level (agl). That said those are Aircraft regulations. And they seem to show you don't own your airspace.

According to this document, parachuters need to begin their landing and circling procedures at 2000' agl. That's twice the height small aircraft use when circling an airport. I've never skydived and don't know what the law is on that though.

in Class G airspace, let's address that. Aircraft must fly 700' above ground level (agl). That said those are Aircraft regulations. And they seem to show you don't own your airspace.

Regardless of the airspace classification, if I owned a building that was 1,100 feet tall, an airplane could not legally fly into/through/too close to it, interfering with my legitimate & effective use of my airspace.
 

amlevin

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Feb 16, 2007
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North of Seattle, Washington, USA
Regardless of the airspace classification, if I owned a building that was 1,100 feet tall, an airplane could not legally fly into/through/too close to it, interfering with my legitimate & effective use of my airspace.

This, plus the fact that a lot of people got huge settlements when the Seattle Monorail was built over their property. Not places where the support pylons were built but those where the tracks were merely hung above their land with out "touching it".

Every case involving "airspace" is different but in this case the property owner had no legal justification for shooting.
 

jfslicer

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May 18, 2013
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72
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Lake Stevens
Regardless of the airspace classification, if I owned a building that was 1,100 feet tall, an airplane could not legally fly into/through/too close to it, interfering with my legitimate & effective use of my airspace.

Agreed. They have to avoid your building by 200'. That's pretty stinking close. It seems clear the parasailer was outside of 200' or else there would not have been sufficient time to yell profanities at him, pull a gun, and fire warning shots. He would have passed over the property in a matter of seconds if he were within 200'-500'.

Every case involving "airspace" is different but in this case the property owner had no legal justification for shooting.

Agreed.
 

Dain Bramage

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Oct 1, 2010
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83
Location
Arlington, WA
Land owner is a nut and should be charged with Reckless Endangerment. During college, I was a security guard at Rocket Research in Redmond. Hot air balloons would float down the valley all the time. One finally landed on the campus. I allowed the escort van to come in and pick everyone up. No big deal.

Now, I live in Arlington. Gliders clear our ridge directly overhead on the way to Arlington Airport. I hope they all make it. Beautiful sight, and very peaceful to watch. I don't think they're interested in invading our property rights.
 

Difdi

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Mar 2, 2010
Messages
987
Location
Seattle, Washington, USA
Every case involving "airspace" is different but in this case the property owner had no legal justification for shooting.

Or phrased a bit differently, the guy flying the paraglider could, if he had been armed during his outdoor activity, have fired back and it would have been a legitimate act of self-defense.
 

rapgood

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Jan 9, 2012
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Stanwood, WA
About 100 years ago when I was a 1st year law student, we actually discussed this topic in Property. Originally (can't remember the name of the case), a real estate owner had exclusive use of his/her property from the depths of hell to the highest reaches of the heavens. That was true until the Wright brothers figured out how to cheat gravity and the U.S. moved in and usurped the "heavens" part (I guess we all still own our own little slice of hell).
 

Difdi

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About 100 years ago when I was a 1st year law student, we actually discussed this topic in Property. Originally (can't remember the name of the case), a real estate owner had exclusive use of his/her property from the depths of hell to the highest reaches of the heavens. That was true until the Wright brothers figured out how to cheat gravity and the U.S. moved in and usurped the "heavens" part (I guess we all still own our own little slice of hell).

Yeah, but most people call it New Jersey. :p

Seriously though, ownership is limited to what other people agree on. I could state that I own the street in front of my apartment, but my neighbors would disagree. If I tried to enforce my claim, those who disagree would stop me. But if they agreed with me, they would at least passively help me enforce my claim. If the majority agreed, then I would indeed own that street. This is how property ownership works.

While it's true that property was once agreed to include the full range, hell to heaven, the majority of people don't agree with that idea anymore.
 

OlGutshotWilly

Campaign Veteran
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Jun 30, 2008
Messages
443
Location
Snohomish, WA, ,
Yeah, but most people call it New Jersey. :p

Seriously though, ownership is limited to what other people agree on. I could state that I own the street in front of my apartment, but my neighbors would disagree. If I tried to enforce my claim, those who disagree would stop me. But if they agreed with me, they would at least passively help me enforce my claim. If the majority agreed, then I would indeed own that street. This is how property ownership works.

While it's true that property was once agreed to include the full range, hell to heaven, the majority of people don't agree with that idea anymore.

The only "other people" you would have to convince is the city council/Mayor of the city. If you wanted to own/buy the city street, you merely offer the city council/Mayor a sum of money agreed on by both parties, they sell you the street, and you can own it and do with it as you please.

The city of Yakima does that all the time. The city taxpayers build and improve the streets, and the city council sells the taxpayers streets to private individuals or corporations that want to own them and use them in the furtherance of their business.

jfslicer
According to this document, parachuters need to begin their landing and circling procedures at 2000' agl. That's twice the height small aircraft use when circling an airport. I've never skydived and don't know what the law is on that though.


FAA Part 105 addresses skydiving regulations.

2000 feet is 10 seconds from impacting the ground and is the minimum "recommended" opening altitude. This gives you time to cut away from a high speed malfunction and use a reserve before hitting the ground. If it is a low speed malfunction, you have a few extra seconds to ponder your fate while waiting, and hoping, for your reserve to open.

Regarding the original topic, I realize we often joke about the signs "Trespassers will be shot". However, I don't believe one can actually legally shoot a trespasser without you actually fearing for your life, in this state. I would think he would be charged with a fairly serious crime for what he did. Particularly as to qualify as a trespasser, the paragliding individual would physically have to have landed and be "on" the physical property.


 

Lante

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May 27, 2009
Messages
122
Location
Kingston, Washington, USA
I actually looked into the real estate / property boundaries of this. You can still buy and sell the area above / below property especially if you have your title written for 3 dimensional space. Additionally, airlines etc have essentially easement rights over your property. The law is not settled on exactly how high / low this is.....asking about drones etc (para-sailors) the property rights attorneys I talked to suggested that this will be a big area in court in the future, but having your title adjusted to show 3 dimensional space might help (showing that you are not abandoning this area). Also, there may be an argument as to the height of the encroaching aircraft ie. height where property boundaries can be reasonably seen / assumed vs flying over large swaths of the country. Finally the purpose of the aircraft - moving from point A to B would bolster the easement argument while encroaching onto your "airspace" to take photos of your private affairs would lessen any easement argument.

Regardless shooting at an errant para-sailer, hot air balloon, glider etc should probably be avoided as I doubt it can be argued they are threatening the people or property unless they are tossing hand-grenades or trying to do a low swoop / James Bond style kidnapping...lol. In this case it sounds like the homeowner was a bit unbalanced.
 

Freedom1Man

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Jan 14, 2012
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4,462
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Greater Eastside Washington
OT I know.

Land owner is a nut and should be charged with Reckless Endangerment. During college, I was a security guard at Rocket Research in Redmond. Hot air balloons would float down the valley all the time. One finally landed on the campus. I allowed the escort van to come in and pick everyone up. No big deal.

Now, I live in Arlington. Gliders clear our ridge directly overhead on the way to Arlington Airport. I hope they all make it. Beautiful sight, and very peaceful to watch. I don't think they're interested in invading our property rights.

You're dating yourself, you're not a spring chicken anymore.

It's Aerojet now and the machining they do is too cool. The engines they build are really neat to look at.
 

Dain Bramage

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Joined
Oct 1, 2010
Messages
83
Location
Arlington, WA
It's Aerojet now and the machining they do is too cool.

Yeah, it was back then too.

And what do you mean no spring chicken? It was the summer CDs were starting to replace cassette tapes. I remember one of the employees was a gadget-hound and was showing them off as the next big thing.
 

Dain Bramage

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Oct 1, 2010
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Location
Arlington, WA
What are cassette tapes?:shocker:

They are an extremely high tech sound duplication system with features not even found today. For instance, the mode-protection system keeps users up with current fashion by self-destructing old tapes at random times. While Van Halen unspooled in the back of the '73 Mustang may seem tragic, it makes up for it by erasing all evidence of Flock of Seagulls and Depeche Mode.
 

golddigger14s

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Apr 27, 2010
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Location
Lawton, OK USA
They are an extremely high tech sound duplication system with features not even found today. For instance, the mode-protection system keeps users up with current fashion by self-destructing old tapes at random times. While Van Halen unspooled in the back of the '73 Mustang may seem tragic, it makes up for it by erasing all evidence of Flock of Seagulls and Depeche Mode.

Plus they are re-writable, with no computer required!
 

Lante

Regular Member
Joined
May 27, 2009
Messages
122
Location
Kingston, Washington, USA
What are cassette tapes?:shocker:

They are like small 8 tracks with only 2 tracks.....

they (cassette tapes) were cool because you can record music on them, or use them to store your data from your cutting edge 1975 Commodore series 2000PET computer with integrated tape drive.
 
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Dain Bramage

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2010
Messages
83
Location
Arlington, WA
Plus they are re-writable, with no computer required!

Unless, of course, the write-protection feature was deployed (ie. tab broken off). Then the only recourse was application of an anti-write-protection mono-sided adhesive (scotch tape). I'm telling you, pretty high tech stuff.
 

mikeyb

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Feb 19, 2013
Messages
554
Location
Bothell
Regardless shooting at an errant para-sailer, hot air balloon, glider etc should probably be avoided as I doubt it can be argued they are threatening the people or property unless they are tossing hand-grenades or trying to do a low swoop / James Bond style kidnapping...lol. In this case it sounds like the homeowner was a bit unbalanced.

Well, the homeowner could have been in fear of his life. We're missing some information.

Parasailer goes over property and gets shot at. Clearly the parasailer posed a threat because he had a shoulder-thingy that went up (in the air). No mention if the parachute was black, or if it had more than 10 shock cords. If it had two controls, it is obviously military-grade, making it threatening to average paranoid citizens, and not meant for public usage. The general populace do not require more than one steering apparatuses. I also hope the parasail was made in America, as foreign parasails will violate the UN treaties.

I am just appalled at this parasailer. Apparently anyone can parasail? No background checks nor state-mandated instruction? The AUDACITY. Somebody should do something.

GODSMACK-OMG (Gun Owners Demand Sensible Moving Aerial 'Chutists Keep Off My Grass) is now formed.
 
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