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Thread: Extra Legal Requirement for CHP in Accomack?

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    Activist Member Wolf_shadow's Avatar
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    Extra Legal Requirement for CHP in Accomack?

    One of the guys from my sportsman's club open carries all the time here on the shore (Not computer friendly). Anyway he told me today, when he went to get his CHP renewal they took his picture to be printed on the new CHP. Apparently the new card is plastic and they are putting your picture in the upper right corner.

    § 18.2-308.04. Processing of the application and issuance of a concealed handgun permit.
    E. The permit to carry a concealed handgun shall specify only the following information: name, address, date of birth, gender, height, weight, color of hair, color of eyes, and signature of the permittee; the signature of the judge issuing the permit, of the clerk of court who has been authorized to sign such permits by the issuing judge, or of the clerk of court who has been authorized to issue such permits pursuant to subsection D; the date of issuance; and the expiration date. The permit to carry a concealed handgun shall be no larger than two inches wide by three and one-fourth inches long and shall be of a uniform style prescribed by the Department of State Police.


    I don't see where in the code they can now add a photo. IANAL am I missing something?
    Yes I carry a Bible and a Gun, your point.
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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf_shadow View Post
    One of the guys from my sportsman's club open carries all the time here on the shore (Not computer friendly). Anyway he told me today, when he went to get his CHP renewal they took his picture to be printed on the new CHP. Apparently the new card is plastic and they are putting your picture in the upper right corner.



    I don't see where in the code they can now add a photo. IANAL am I missing something?
    They can't. I'm guessing the rational is that it will eliminate the need for a second ID card. I don't think that will fly.

    I wonder if they're keeping a copy of the Picture. No way to find out either unless the Clerk ignores the sealed info law.

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    Activist Member Wolf_shadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    They can't. I'm guessing the rational is that it will eliminate the need for a second ID card. I don't think that will fly.

    I wonder if they're keeping a copy of the Picture. No way to find out either unless the Clerk ignores the sealed info law.
    While the CHP Holders info is sealed I don't see how the procedure for processing is. Also where they used to charge $15.00 they have increased the fee to $35.
    Yes I carry a Bible and a Gun, your point.
    Vindiciae Contra Tyrannos (meaning: "A defence of liberty against tyrants")
    Benjamin Franklin said, "A government that does not trust it's citizens with guns is a government that should not be trusted."



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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf_shadow View Post
    While the CHP Holders info is sealed I don't see how the procedure for processing is. Also where they used to charge $15.00 they have increased the fee to $35.
    I'm not sure about the internal procedures yet (keeping a copy). Gotta test it.
    The fee change and Picture itself can be dealt with I think.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...od+18.2-308.04

    ....

    E. The permit to carry a concealed handgun shall specify only the following information: name, address, date of birth, gender, height, weight, color of hair, color of eyes, and signature of the permittee; the signature of the judge issuing the permit, of the clerk of court who has been authorized to sign such permits by the issuing judge, or of the clerk of court who has been authorized to issue such permits pursuant to subsection D; the date of issuance; and the expiration date. The permit to carry a concealed handgun shall be no larger than two inches wide by three and one-fourth inches long and shall be of a uniform style prescribed by the Department of State Police.
    Somebody help a brother out here, please.

    Where in that paragraph does it mention the picture of the applicant?

    It seems the Clerk has become disoriented. (Happens a lot in cases of cranio-rectal inversion.)

    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...od+18.2-308.06

    ....

    D. The permit to carry a concealed handgun shall contain only the following information: name, address, date of birth, gender, height, weight, color of hair, color of eyes, and photograph of the permittee; the signature of the Superintendent of the Virginia Department of State Police or his designee; the date of issuance; and the expiration date.
    Somebody please go explain to the Clerk that a person who lives in Accomack County is a resident of the Commonwealth of Virginia in spite of the fact that 1) in 1670, the Virginia Colony's Royal Governor William Berkeley abolished Accomac County. Seems the Virginia General Assembly re-created it in 1671; and

    2) Unlike most of Virginia, during the Civil War, the county was not under Confederate control, but held by the forces of the United States government.

    Nowhere in the Code of Virginia does it say the Clerk can use a non-resident permit for residents. And that's where the extra-legal happens. (Stupid is not yet illegal, It ought to be, but personally I think most of the General Assembly is afraid they'd be arrested if they made stupid illegal.)

    stay safe.
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    http://www.co.accomack.va.us/governm...andgun-permits

    Concealed Handgun Permits

    Applications for a Concealed Handgun permits are available from the Clerk's Office or by visiting the Virginia State Police website.

    Applications must be received in person at the Clerk’s Office and the permit fee is $35.00. Your photo will be taken to be included on your new handgun permit.

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    Email sent to the Accomack County Clerk of Circuit Court (Samuel H. Cooper, Jr) with a link to the Accomack County website page regarding concealed handgun permits, and a request for him to identify the section in the Code of Virginia that authorizes him to take photographs.

    More to follow...

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    Re: Extra Legal Requirement for CHP in Accomack?

    State law would trump this yes?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mpguy View Post
    State law would trump this yes?

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    Yup. I believe so anyway. We'll see what the Clerk's reply to my email is....

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mpguy View Post
    State law would trump this yes?

    Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
    Yes!

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    Re: Extra Legal Requirement for CHP in Accomack?

    What I don't get is, why the county can just make up stuff. Its a waste of tax payer money.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mpguy View Post
    What I don't get is, why the county can just make up stuff. Its a waste of tax payer money.

    Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
    I think a lot of government agencies do that.... they figure that everything is 'fair game', and if/when they get caught they will revise their policy at that time. Most of the time there is no penalty, once they 'comply'...

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blk97F150 View Post
    I think a lot of government agencies do that.... they figure that everything is 'fair game', and if/when they get caught they will revise their policy at that time. Most of the time there is no penalty, once they 'comply'...
    Yep...a lot of arrogance goes with that office.

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    Activist Member Wolf_shadow's Avatar
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    Concealed Handgun Permits

    Applications for a Concealed Handgun permits are available from the Clerk's Office or by visiting the Virginia State Police website.

    Applications must be received in person at the Clerk’s Office and the permit fee is $35.00. Your photo will be taken to be included on your new handgun permit.


    A. 1. Persons who previously have held a concealed handgun permit shall be issued, upon application as provided in §
    18.2-308.02, a new five-year permit unless it is found that the applicant is subject to any of the disqualifications set forth in § 18.2-308.09. Persons who previously have been issued a concealed handgun permit pursuant to this article shall not be required to appear in person to apply for a new five-year permit pursuant to this section, and the application for the new permit may be submitted via the United States mail. The circuit court that receives the application shall promptly notify an applicant if the application is incomplete or if the fee submitted for the permit pursuant to § 18.2-308.03 is incorrect.

    Under VA Code they cannot require applicants to be received in person either!
    Yes I carry a Bible and a Gun, your point.
    Vindiciae Contra Tyrannos (meaning: "A defence of liberty against tyrants")
    Benjamin Franklin said, "A government that does not trust it's citizens with guns is a government that should not be trusted."



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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf_shadow View Post
    [COLOR=#333333]
    Under VA Code they cannot require applicants to be received in person either!
    You are correct!! I missed that one. I'll ask about that too!!

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    Does anyone on OCDO currently live in Accomack County and NOT have a CHP yet?

    If so.... I'll donate $20 towards your CHP license if you agree to apply ONLY following Virginia law, and not submitting anything they are requesting above and beyond the law!

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blk97F150 View Post
    Does anyone on OCDO currently live in Accomack County and NOT have a CHP yet?

    If so.... I'll donate $20 towards your CHP license if you agree to apply ONLY following Virginia law, and not submitting anything they are requesting above and beyond the law!
    Go get em!
    This is starting to look good.

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    Activist Member Wolf_shadow's Avatar
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    Angry Email Sent

    I have sent the following email to The Clerk Samual Cooper Jr. and The President of VCDL Philip VanCleave.

    Hon, Samual Cooper Jr.

    Please let me know what part of the Virginia Code allows your office to require applicants for a Concealed Handgun Permit (CHP) to be “received in Person” and to submit to a photograph for use on the new CHP.

    In “§ 18.2-308.02. Application for a concealed handgun permit; Virginia resident or domiciliary”. I can find no such requirements or permissions. In fact “§ 18.2-308.04. Processing of the application and issuance of a concealed handgun permit.” Section E states what may be on the permit and I see no allowance for a photo

    E. The permit to carry a concealed handgun shall specify only the following information: name, address, date of birth, gender, height, weight, color of hair, color of eyes, and signature of the permittee; the signature of the judge issuing the permit, of the clerk of court who has been authorized to sign such permits by the issuing judge, or of the clerk of court who has been authorized to issue such permits pursuant to subsection D; the date of issuance; and the expiration date. The permit to carry a concealed handgun shall be no larger than two inches wide by three and one-fourth inches long and shall be of a uniform style prescribed by the Department of State Police.”

    The only reference to photograph I find in the code is in section § 18.2-308.06. Nonresident concealed handgun permits. Since § 18.2-308.06. Nonresident concealed handgun permits does not apply to Residents of the state of Virginia this section can not be used to justify photographs on resident CHP’s.

    Also in § 18.2-308.010. Renewal of concealed handgun permit. In part Paragraph A says “Persons who previously have been issued a concealed handgun permit pursuant to this article shall not be required to appear in person to apply for a new five-year permit pursuant to this section, and the application for the new permit may be submitted via the United States mail. The circuit court that receives the application shall promptly notify an applicant if the application is incomplete or if the fee submitted for the permit pursuant to § 18.2-308.03 is incorrect.”

    In summary in VAC 18.2-308 through 18.2-308.015 in reference to CHP’s, I can find no requirement for an resident applicant to appear in person or submit to a photograph for issuance of a Resident Concealed Handgun Permit. Please enlighten me on how your office can make these requirements.


    Rev. John Xxxxxx

    We''ll see how he answers.
    Sam actually knows me as I confronted him on the 90 to 180 day rule on my renewal, and am a member of the local town council.
    Last edited by Wolf_shadow; 07-04-2013 at 09:30 PM.
    Yes I carry a Bible and a Gun, your point.
    Vindiciae Contra Tyrannos (meaning: "A defence of liberty against tyrants")
    Benjamin Franklin said, "A government that does not trust it's citizens with guns is a government that should not be trusted."



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    Regular Member jsfrederick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blk97F150 View Post
    Does anyone on OCDO currently live in Accomack County and NOT have a CHP yet?

    If so.... I'll donate $20 towards your CHP license if you agree to apply ONLY following Virginia law, and not submitting anything they are requesting above and beyond the law!
    I'll donate another $20!

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    Regular Member HearseGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jsfrederick View Post
    I'll donate another $20!
    Dangit, why do I have to be just outside of accomac! Haha

    Good on you for bringing this up and out to light wolf shadow. In the local gun shop today I saw 3 or 4 people comparing CHPs today. They look like drivers licenses and had their picture. I raised an eyebrow but didn't say anything. Not sure where they were from.
    Additional text for your reading pleasure...

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HearseGuy View Post
    ....

    In the local gun shop today I saw 3 or 4 people comparing CHPs today. They look like drivers licenses and had their picture.....
    Anybody that wants to see my picture can go to the local Post Office - it's there on the wall. Least I've been told that most of my government ID pictures look like that's where they came from.

    Does anybody remember me speculating that the Clerk has become perfused and complexed between the resident and non-resident CHPs? Well, in case they might not, let me try it a didfferent way -

    Would someone in/near Accomack County go down to the courthouse and get a look at these CHPs that have pictures on them, please. (See, I can be socially appropriate if I remember.) Check to see if they are in fact non-resident CHPs or if the Clerk has spent money on a card-making system for which there is no authority.

    If it turns out the Clerk is using a maverick card system it might be fun to discuss the matter with the Commonwealth Attorney, regarding where the money for it came from moreso than why it is being used. (I hear constitutional officers are still liable for misuse of public funds. Might be I sort of recall a few that left office/were removed from office because they got caught doing so.)

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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    Email response from Samuel H. Cooper, Jr, Accomack Clerk of Court

    I have not responded yet. My thought is to reply back and point out the section in the Code of Virginia that prohibits additional information not specifically authorized.

    I'm open to suggestions.....

    -----------------------------------------
    From : SHCooper@courts.state.va.us
    To : blk97f150
    Subject : Re: Accomack County Concealed Handgun Permit
    Date : Mon, Jul 08, 2013 02:21 PM

    I assume that you have an issue with having photos on handgun permits. This service is provided in response customers requests for a more durable card. The photo serves as an additional form of ID. My response to your question concerning statutory authorization for the photo would ask if there is any statutory prohibition.

    Samuel H. Cooper, Jr.

  23. #23
    Regular Member HearseGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blk97F150 View Post
    Email response from Samuel H. Cooper, Jr, Accomack Clerk of Court

    I have not responded yet. My thought is to reply back and point out the section in the Code of Virginia that prohibits additional information not specifically authorized.

    I'm open to suggestions.....

    -----------------------------------------
    From : SHCooper@courts.state.va.us
    To : blk97f150
    Subject : Re: Accomack County Concealed Handgun Permit
    Date : Mon, Jul 08, 2013 02:21 PM

    I assume that you have an issue with having photos on handgun permits. This service is provided in response customers requests for a more durable card. The photo serves as an additional form of ID. My response to your question concerning statutory authorization for the photo would ask if there is any statutory prohibition.

    Samuel H. Cooper, Jr.
    I talked to a buddy of mine today. He has the "new durable card" with his mugshot. He said that he requested it. And I want to say he had the option of picture or no picture.
    Last edited by HearseGuy; 07-08-2013 at 03:47 PM.
    Additional text for your reading pleasure...

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    Quote Originally Posted by HearseGuy View Post
    I talked to a buddy of mine today. He has the "new durable card" with his mugshot. He said that he requested it. And I want to say he had the option of picture or no picture.
    As I understand the Code.... the clerk is prohibited from even requesting additional information... regardless of whether the applicant agrees or not.

    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...od+18.2-308.02

    The application shall be made under oath before a notary or other person qualified to take oaths and shall be made only on a form prescribed by the Department of State Police, in consultation with the Supreme Court, requiring only that information necessary to determine eligibility for the permit. No information or documentation other than that which is allowed on the application in accordance with this section may be requested or required by the clerk or the court.

  25. #25
    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HearseGuy View Post
    I talked to a buddy of mine today. He has the "new durable card" with his mugshot. He said that he requested it. And I want to say he had the option of picture or no picture.
    So, the question then becomes: Does the photo ID CHP qualify as an ID, and one need not present one's Driver's License along with the CHP? And, if so, will other jurisdictions (counties/cities) in the Commonwealth recognize it as sufficient ID?

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