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Thread: some clarification on open carry in New mexico

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    some clarification on open carry in New mexico

    a couple days ago i found out i can legally open carry at age 19 in new mexico usa. yet i can buy a handgun from a dealer until i am 21. nor can i apply for a concealed carry license until i am 21.

    i do own a firearm that was a gift. i can legally posses a firearm and conceal it in my home property or car. what i dont get is if you are trusted to have a weapon in your car, or property and actually want to take the classes for concealed carry u cant even though you can open carry..

    I am considering doing open carry but there is a few concerns about it..

    1. will cops give me a problem and do i risk them stealing my weapon and or making it illegal for me to get my concealed carry next year if i decide to? if i kept legal documentation of the law stating i can legally open carry will they be forced to leave me alone..

    2. does the gun have to be registered in my name or legally transferred or anything like that?

    3. in new mexico is there any laws on open carry on what type of ammo u can or cant use and if you can have a round chambered..?


    4. for those that open carry, what has your experience been with police and civilians? ever have any problems?

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Welcome aboard OCDO - generally problems are few in NM.

    Summary
    New Mexico is one of our “Gold Star” open carry states. There is complete state preemption of all firearms laws, open carry is increasingly common and law enforcement is well educated as to its legality. In addition, New Mexico has an extended domain law which effectively makes your vehicle an extention of your home. So you may carry openly or concealed in your vehicle.
    http://www.opencarry.org/?page_id=278

    There is no "registration" required of your handgun.

    Carry whatever flavor of ammo you prefer - a good choice is often what local LEOs carry. Though problems are few, a good digital recorder can be a welcome asset.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Does state law preempt tribal law, and if you are just passing through the state, how do you know if you are on tribal land or not? I want to be respectful of tribal law, but I don't want to get popped for doing something innocent like getting out of my car to buy gas while passing through. I'm a Texas resident with a valid CHL and valid nonresident Utah CFP.....and a clean record. I'd like it to stay that way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Annoyed Man View Post
    Does state law preempt tribal law, and if you are just passing through the state, how do you know if you are on tribal land or not? I want to be respectful of tribal law, but I don't want to get popped for doing something innocent like getting out of my car to buy gas while passing through. I'm a Texas resident with a valid CHL and valid nonresident Utah CFP.....and a clean record. I'd like it to stay that way.
    No, in this case state law DOES NOT preempt tribal law. The reservations are sovereign nations. According to this state's CC laws, our licenses are not valid on tribal lands. That means without prior permission of the tribe you can not carry at all on tribal lands.

    If you stay on state or interstate highways and do not go off of them into the actual reservation, you should be fine just passing through. Just keep the guns in the vehicle if you pull off to get gas, and you should be fine. Sometimes you will see signs indicating you are entering or exiting the tribal lands, but not in all cases. Most of the larger tribal lands are indicated on maps.

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Annoyed Man View Post
    Does state law preempt tribal law, and if you are just passing through the state, how do you know if you are on tribal land or not? I want to be respectful of tribal law, but I don't want to get popped for doing something innocent like getting out of my car to buy gas while passing through. I'm a Texas resident with a valid CHL and valid nonresident Utah CFP.....and a clean record. I'd like it to stay that way.
    I would check the tribal laws of the reservations you plan to visit. Most tribal laws are worded so they only effect tribal members. Plus generally speaking a tribal officer enforcing tribal law against you can only trespass you from the reservation, and you're not subject to the jurisdiction of tribal court.

    However in my personal experience, the nations in Montana are very supportive of gun rights and won't give people issues, I don't know much about the New Mexico tribes, but chances are if you're obeying state law and beig respectful to the tribe and its members you won't have many problems with them
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    I would check the tribal laws of the reservations you plan to visit. Most tribal laws are worded so they only effect tribal members. Plus generally speaking a tribal officer enforcing tribal law against you can only trespass you from the reservation, and you're not subject to the jurisdiction of tribal court.

    However in my personal experience, the nations in Montana are very supportive of gun rights and won't give people issues, I don't know much about the New Mexico tribes, but chances are if you're obeying state law and beig respectful to the tribe and its members you won't have many problems with them
    The first paragraph is entirely inaccurate here in NM and I believe in general- if you are on the res, you are subject to their laws. Gun laws are clear here and part of the state laws and CC act wrt tribal lands.

    The second paragraph- it's not worth losing your gun and getting into serious trouble to find out. Because if they take your gun you can rest assured that you will very likely never see it again.

    So generally I disagree with this post and feel it is not good advice.
    Last edited by AH.74; 07-25-2013 at 07:59 AM.

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AH.74 View Post
    The first paragraph is entirely inaccurate here in NM and I believe in general- if you are on the res, you are subject to their laws. Gun laws are clear here and part of the state laws and CC act wrt tribal lands.

    The second paragraph- it's not worth losing your gun and getting into serious trouble to find out. Because if they take your gun you can rest assured that you will very likely never see it again.

    So generally I disagree with this post and feel it is not good advice.
    Not correct. The tribe closest to me was subeject to a Supreme Court ruling on the 1970s (Oliphant v.Suquamish Nation) in which the court ruled that non tribal members are not subject to that tribes courts. Non indians can only be prosecuted by the Federal Government if they victimize a Native American under the terms of the General Crimes act. All felony convictions must be obtained in federal court under the major crimes act.

    Now some tribes are now getting their officers POST certified by the respective state their reservation is located in. If post certified they may arrest you under state laws and send you to state courts
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    Let us not forget the episode of "NAVAJO COPS" on cable where a fellow that lives in COLO. or Utah and worked in N.M. was stopped on 666 by a Tribal Officer, the officer saw a gun on the seat of the guys car and confiscated it. Legal or not, I do not know, but, hide it from sight and have it unloaded.
    Last edited by elebuttfish; 07-25-2013 at 11:48 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    Not correct. The tribe closest to me was subeject to a Supreme Court ruling on the 1970s (Oliphant v.Suquamish Nation) in which the court ruled that non tribal members are not subject to that tribes courts. Non indians can only be prosecuted by the Federal Government if they victimize a Native American under the terms of the General Crimes act. All felony convictions must be obtained in federal court under the major crimes act.

    Now some tribes are now getting their officers POST certified by the respective state their reservation is located in. If post certified they may arrest you under state laws and send you to state courts
    I have read and am familiar with my own home state's laws. Have you read the NM statutes, and the NM Concealed Carry Act in full?

    The bottom line is that carry of any sort is prohibited on any tribal lands without their express permission. The only exception is if you are passing through on state highways- and even then, if you talk to different tribal police, as I have, you will hear different things. It is not worth the hassle to take a risk, just because.

    To be as safe as possible, you should have the guns unloaded and locked in a container in the trunk if you have one. Otherwise, you are at risk.

    There's a reason I don't go into other state forums and make recommendations that are poor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AH.74 View Post
    --snipped--
    There's a reason I don't go into other state forums and make recommendations that are poor.
    No one is limited to expressing their thoughts in only their home state. Many people travel or have relatives and friends all over the country, but no reason/excuse is required. We share thoughts, ideas and ultimately (hopefully) knowledge.

    Granted that the wording of a post can effect a lot of different things........, but so too can the those of a reply.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    No one is limited to expressing their thoughts in only their home state. Many people travel or have relatives and friends all over the country, but no reason/excuse is required. We share thoughts, ideas and ultimately (hopefully) knowledge.

    Granted that the wording of a post can effect a lot of different things........, but so too can the those of a reply.
    No, there is no such limitation. But when someone says

    I don't know much about the New Mexico tribes
    it generally follows that maybe they shouldn't also offer advice about dealing with them. Montana isn't New Mexico.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    I would check the tribal laws of the reservations you plan to visit. Most tribal laws are worded so they only effect tribal members. Plus generally speaking a tribal officer enforcing tribal law against you can only trespass you from the reservation, and you're not subject to the jurisdiction of tribal court.

    However in my personal experience, the nations in Montana are very supportive of gun rights and won't give people issues, I don't know much about the New Mexico tribes, but chances are if you're obeying state law and beig respectful to the tribe and its members you won't have many problems with them
    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    No one is limited to expressing their thoughts in only their home state. Many people travel or have relatives and friends all over the country, but no reason/excuse is required. We share thoughts, ideas and ultimately (hopefully) knowledge.

    Granted that the wording of a post can effect a lot of different things........, but so too can the those of a reply.
    Quote Originally Posted by AH.74 View Post
    No, there is no such limitation. But when someone says

    I don't know much about the New Mexico tribes
    it generally follows that maybe they shouldn't also offer advice about dealing with them. Montana isn't New Mexico.
    It is hardly a valid argument to take part of his quote out of context (see red font edit above) to make it appear he said something so limited, which he did not. In fact doing so is a violation of forum rules.

    Don't see that EMN was giving "advice" at all, but offering his thoughts and personal experiences as they might relate to the thread.

    You would do far better to stick to the facts w/o criticizing/attacking the individual. If you see the circumstances/facts as being different, then correct with cite references, rather than a my opinion is better than your opinion argument. OTOH - if you are only discussing (offering your opinion w/o cites) then you have no claim to authority - just a difference of opinion.

    I traveled all the way from Virginia to say that
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 07-26-2013 at 03:00 PM. Reason: Color font to highlight an out of context quote in post #11
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    It is hardly a valid argument to take part of his quote out of context to make it appear he said something so limited, which he did not. In fact doing so is a violation of forum rules.

    Don't see that EMN was giving "advice" at all, but offering his thoughts and personal experiences as they might relate to the thread.

    You would do far better to stick to the facts w/o criticizing/attacking the individual. If you see the circumstances/facts as being different, then correct with cite references, rather than a my opinion is better than your opinion argument. OTOH - if you are only discussing (offering your opinion w/o cites) then you have no claim to authority - just a difference of opinion.

    I traveled all the way from Virginia to say that
    This subject has been discussed many, many times. I did not take anything out of context. I stated my opinion that his advice was poor, and I will stand by that opinion.

    The law in this state is clear when it comes to carrying on tribal lands. It is black and white. Very simple.

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AH.74 View Post
    This subject has been discussed many, many times. I did not take anything out of context. I stated my opinion that his advice was poor, and I will stand by that opinion.

    The law in this state is clear when it comes to carrying on tribal lands. It is black and white. Very simple.
    I've just been through the NM Statute Annotated. I can't find anything restricting reservation carry, can you please cite the law?
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    Quote Originally Posted by AH.74 View Post
    This subject has been discussed many, many times. I did not take anything out of context. I stated my opinion that his advice was poor, and I will stand by that opinion.

    The law in this state is clear when it comes to carrying on tribal lands. It is black and white. Very simple.
    Sir, with all due respect, I am not asking you if you took something out of context. I am in fact telling you that you did and in so doing you modified what EMN said - a clear violation of rule #16. He gave no "advice" - he suggested "checking", and said "generally speaking", and "in my personal experience" - those limitations preclude it from being "advice."

    You have made the claim that "The law in this state is clear when it comes to carrying on tribal lands. It is black and white." You have been requested twice now to cite this law - please do so.

    As to rule #5 - short form
    (5) CITE TO AUTHORITY: If you state a rule of law, it is incumbent upon you to try to cite.......

    A word to the wise: Further posting/argument on whether you a think you are subject to rule #16. and moderation thereof will be dealt with in another manner.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 07-26-2013 at 03:34 PM. Reason: Formatting
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    I've just been through the NM Statute Annotated. I can't find anything restricting reservation carry, can you please cite the law?

    29-19-10 Validity of license on tribal land. (2003)

    A concealed handgun license shall not be valid on tribal land, unless authorized by the governing body of an Indian nation, tribe or pueblo.

    History: Laws 2003, ch. 255, § 10.

    29-19-10
    No right is held more sacred, or is more carefully guarded, by the common law than the right of every individual to the possession and control of his own person, free from all restraint or interference of others, unless by clear and unquestionable authority of law. Union Pacific Rail Co. vs Botsford as quoted in Terry v Ohio.


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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ak56 View Post
    That applies only to concealed handgun licenses. It seems you do not need a license to open carry in NM, and if you do then you need to send a message to john and mike so they can correct the status on their maps...

    so no violation of the NM statutes has been proposed, plus I believe the last time I checked a CHL was not nessecary to carry concealed in your car. so there is no issue with the state of New Mexico.

    now on to the tribes, per Oliphant v. Suquamish tribal courts have no jurisdiction over non-indians (or indians who are not enrolled members of that tribe for that matter) unless congress grants that authority. the only authority has been granted by the Violence Against Women Act and only applies if a non-tribal member married to a tribal spouse abuses her on tribal land. that is so far the only criminal jurisdiction tribes have over non-members.

    There are four tracks a tribal police officer can follow when dealing with a non-tribal member on tribal land.

    1) the tribal police officer may stop anyone for any reason and verify if they're a tribal member, and if not they can ask the tribal member to leave and escort them off the reservation (much like a security guard in private property)

    2) If the person refuses to leave or is committing a criminal act against the tribe or a tribal member then they can arrest that non-tribal member and request a federal court assume jurisdiction, Federal Courts then may prosecute what would've been a violation of state laws.... (The General Crimes Act) or they may prosecute what is a common felony (The Major Crimes Act)

    3) if non-tribal member is committing a crime against another non-tribal member then the State has jurisdiction

    4) if the Tribal Police Officer is POST certified by the state or deputized/cross commissioned by a state or local LE agency they may act as a State officer could. however when they use this authority to enforce state laws and not tribal laws, once they use their authority as state agents then probable cause and the like apply.

    can they theoretically take your gun and not allow it back... yes...

    but so can any police agency. your local sheriff's department can illegally seize your gun and make you file lawsuits well in excess of its value to get it back...
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 07-26-2013 at 06:04 PM. Reason: Format
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    That applies only to concealed handgun licenses. It seems you do not need a license to open carry in NM, and if you do then you need to send a message to john and mike so they can correct the status on their maps...

    so no violation of the NM statutes has been proposed, plus I believe the last time I checked a CHL was not nessecary to carry concealed in your car. so there is no issue with the state of New Mexico.

    now on to the tribes, per Oliphant v. Suquamish tribal courts have no jurisdiction over non-indians (or indians who are not enrolled members of that tribe for that matter) unless congress grants that authority. the only authority has been granted by the Violence Against Women Act and only applies if a non-tribal member married to a tribal spouse abuses her on tribal land. that is so far the only criminal jurisdiction tribes have over non-members.

    --snipped--
    That is my thinking precisely.

    Insofar as car carry on the highway, there is the matter of interstate travel to consider. Granted there are certain conditions pertaining to unloaded and secured properly. Out of state visitors will not know where tribal lands begin and end - this law affords them safe passage.

    “Notwithstanding any other provisions of any law or any rule or regulation of a State or any political subdivision thereof, any person who is not otherwise prohibited by this chapter from transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm shall be entitled to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm . . . .”
    http://www.gunlawsbystate.com/#!/int...-introduction/
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    Something just came up in random debate

    I've been having some conversations with people on a certain Facebook page, and a question arose which I cannot find an answer to. Basically, my question is "is it unlawful to remove your weapon from your holster in public in NM?" This is purely theoretical, so let's assume the person is openly carrying, where not prohibited, and there is no threat or need to use it (let's say for a photo).

    Thanks in advance.

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    First, welcome to OCDO.
    Quote Originally Posted by Derlitz
    is it unlawful to remove your weapon from your holster in public in NM?
    I can think of situations where it would be, and situations where it wouldn't be.
    Need more context.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    First, welcome to OCDO.

    I can think of situations where it would be, and situations where it wouldn't be.
    Need more context.
    Okay, without naming the company, a certain popular beverage company has taken the stance to defer the legislation of open/concealed carry to the jurisdictions in which their stores reside. On their Facebook page, there have been many pictures posted of their beverages sitting next to guns. What I'm trying to find out, is if (which is kind of a big "if") these photos were taken inside the store, which is open to the public, was it legal for the owners to remove their weapons from the holsters? Unfortunately, I have to assume the weapons were loaded.

    I suppose an easier way to ask would be (without so many assumptions being made): if I was sitting in a ice cream shop in NM, where carrying firearms wasn't banned by management, and I wanted to take a picture of my firearm next to my sundae, would it be legal for me to take my loaded gun from my holster and set it on the table next to my sundae, in full view of the general public, and take a picture?

    I hope that clarifies my question.

    ... And thanks for welcoming me to the forum.
    Last edited by Derlitz; 08-24-2013 at 09:22 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derlitz View Post
    Okay, without naming the company, a certain popular beverage company has taken the stance to defer the legislation of open/concealed carry to the jurisdictions in which their stores reside. On their Facebook page, there have been many pictures posted of their beverages sitting next to guns. What I'm trying to find out, is if (which is kind of a big "if") these photos were taken inside the store, which is open to the public, was it legal for the owners to remove their weapons from the holsters? Unfortunately, I have to assume the weapons were loaded.

    I suppose an easier way to ask would be (without so many assumptions being made): if I was sitting in a ice cream shop in NM, where carrying firearms wasn't banned by management, and I wanted to take a picture of my firearm next to my sundae, would it be legal for me to take my loaded gun from my holster and set it on the table next to my sundae, in full view of the general public, and take a picture?

    I hope that clarifies my question.

    ... And thanks for welcoming me to the forum.
    In general, we strongly recommend not handling your gun unnecessarily when out in public. Leaving it properly holstered and untouched virtually eliminates the posibility of an AD or ND + there will be no misunderstanding your intent.

    Then there is the question of what you want to do on someone else's private property. If you want a photo op, then I suggest you ask the management to arrange a convenient time when the store is not open........which is what I suspect your "beverage company" did or the photo may have been photoshopped.

    In your imagined scenario there are several possible laws that could be broken depending how you are acting + muzzle control, but at the least it is thoughtless, rude, selfish and potentially unsafe.

    Unholster at home, make it safe, and take all of the pictures you want with a sunday or a beverage.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 08-25-2013 at 10:14 PM. Reason: added
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    Two things (or 2 cents) is that in NM there are many reservations and the state law is superceded by tribal law on the reservation (You are a guest of the tribe and as such are bound by the same law that governs the land you are standing on). I don't have the current cite but I do know that the police chief of the Isleta tribe mandates that his officers confiscate any weapons they find/see in a traffic stop. They only make stops on NM-47 or state roads, they do not make general stops on I-25. Your concealed carry permit isn't worth anything on a reservation in NM. I am of the opinion (only because I don't have the cite at hand) that any type of carry is not allowed on a reservation in NM unless you are friends with the police chief or a member of the tribe.

    Also based on a recent NM Supreme court case (handgunlaw.us has the cite on the NM page since I sent it to them) any traffic stop may result in confiscation for the duration of the stop of your weapon.

    I have a vested interest in NM as my original home and I have family there. The police in Bernalillo County and Sandoval County will attempt to abrogate your rights so know them and know the law in NM, or anywhere you are going to carry.

    Although, my further personal opinion is that these laws are all reprehensible to the spirit of the 2nd Amendment and Thomas Jefferson was said to have said that any free man should carry.
    When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force.

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    Activist Member nuc65's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derlitz View Post
    Okay, without naming the company, a certain popular beverage company has taken the stance to defer the legislation of open/concealed carry to the jurisdictions in which their stores reside. On their Facebook page, there have been many pictures posted of their beverages sitting next to guns. What I'm trying to find out, is if (which is kind of a big "if") these photos were taken inside the store, which is open to the public, was it legal for the owners to remove their weapons from the holsters? Unfortunately, I have to assume the weapons were loaded.

    I suppose an easier way to ask would be (without so many assumptions being made): if I was sitting in a ice cream shop in NM, where carrying firearms wasn't banned by management, and I wanted to take a picture of my firearm next to my sundae, would it be legal for me to take my loaded gun from my holster and set it on the table next to my sundae, in full view of the general public, and take a picture?

    I hope that clarifies my question.

    ... And thanks for welcoming me to the forum.
    To what Grapeshot says: +1. Such actions as handling your piece in public is unsafe and not well thought out. There is nothing to be gained by posting 'gangsta' style shots. Can and should are usually a matter of maturity.
    When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force.

    excerpt By Marko Kloos (http://munchkinwrangler.wordpress.com/?s=major+caudill)

  25. #25
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by derlitz
    is it unlawful to remove your weapon from your holster in public
    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal
    I can think of situations where it would be, and situations where it wouldn't be.
    Need more context.
    Quote Originally Posted by Derlitz
    if I was sitting in a ice cream shop in NM, where carrying firearms wasn't banned by management, and I wanted to take a picture of my firearm next to my sundae, would it be legal for me to take my loaded gun from my holster and set it on the table next to my sundae, in full view of the general public, and take a picture?
    Legal? Most likely.
    If someone were alarmed you might be charged with disorderly conduct or some such.

    Smart? Definitely not.
    If it's in your holster it's not going to go bang. People are safe.
    If you're handling it, no matter how safe you think you're being, it can go bang.
    Where's your safe direction in a restaurant? Can you satisfy the 3 rules?

    ETA:
    How about setting the holstered pistol by your drink / sundae, or holding the food next to your hip?
    Last edited by MKEgal; 08-26-2013 at 12:26 PM.

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