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Thread: Amelia County CHP renewal

  1. #1
    Regular Member celticredneck's Avatar
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    Amelia County CHP renewal

    My permit is due for renewal in mid October, so I called the clerk of the court to inquire as to the cost. Surprise, it is still only $15 dollars and they have no problem accepting it by mail, as long as the application is notarized. However, they do want me to send a copy of my current permit with the application. I have no problem with this, although I don't think that is part of the Va statutes. I was speaking directly with Marilyn Wilson, the current court clerk, and ask her if they didn't already have a coops of my permit on file and she said no, that they only keep the applications and that it could be looked up, but, it would be much faster if I sent a copy.
    You can't fix stupid, but you can vote it out of office

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by celticredneck View Post
    My permit is due for renewal in mid October, so I called the clerk of the court to inquire as to the cost. Surprise, it is still only $15 dollars and they have no problem accepting it by mail, as long as the application is notarized. However, they do want me to send a copy of my current permit with the application. I have no problem with this, although I don't think that is part of the Va statutes. I was speaking directly with Marilyn Wilson, the current court clerk, and ask her if they didn't already have a coops of my permit on file and she said no, that they only keep the applications and that it could be looked up, but, it would be much faster if I sent a copy.
    I'm going to stop replying to these CHP posts...right after this.

    It sounds like she's only asking for a copy, not demanding one. I wouldn't have a problem with that and requesting doesn't violate the law IMO.

    You have the option of sending it or not.
    Last edited by peter nap; 07-08-2013 at 12:49 PM.

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    I'm going to stop replying to these CHP posts...right after this.

    It sounds like she's only asking for a copy, not demanding one. I wouldn't have a problem with that and requesting doesn't violate the law IMO.

    You have the option of sending it or not.

    I can agree with this. If its not a mandatory requirement and just a request, I guess I'm ok with it.
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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Hate to poo-poo but you are mistaken...

    From newly organized section 18.2-308.02, we have:

    A. Any person 21 years of age or older may apply in writing to the clerk of the circuit court of the county or city in which he resides, or if he is a member of the United States armed forces, the county or city in which he is domiciled, for a five-year permit to carry a concealed handgun. There shall be no requirement regarding the length of time an applicant has been a resident or domiciliary of the county or city. The application shall be made under oath before a notary or other person qualified to take oaths and shall be made only on a form prescribed by the Department of State Police, in consultation with the Supreme Court, requiring only that information necessary to determine eligibility for the permit. No information or documentation other than that which is allowed on the application in accordance with this section may be requested or required by the clerk or the court.

    If you recall, I believe this was added because we convinced the GA that ordinary people can't tell the difference between a demand and a request. And I think it is a good thing to have in there.

    Now I can understand it might save 5 minutes, isn't there a number they can call to verify the validity of a CHP?

    Perhaps I would be OK with it, if the clerk worded it like this:

    "I can't ask or require that you give me a copy of your old permit, but if you happened to do so, it would save me some time..."

    TFred

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Hate to poo-poo but you are mistaken...

    From newly organized section 18.2-308.02, we have:
    A. Any person 21 years of age or older may apply in writing to the clerk of the circuit court of the county or city in which he resides, or if he is a member of the United States armed forces, the county or city in which he is domiciled, for a five-year permit to carry a concealed handgun. There shall be no requirement regarding the length of time an applicant has been a resident or domiciliary of the county or city. The application shall be made under oath before a notary or other person qualified to take oaths and shall be made only on a form prescribed by the Department of State Police, in consultation with the Supreme Court, requiring only that information necessary to determine eligibility for the permit. No information or documentation other than that which is allowed on the application in accordance with this section may be requested or required by the clerk or the court.

    If you recall, I believe this was added because we convinced the GA that ordinary people can't tell the difference between a demand and a request. And I think it is a good thing to have in there.

    Now I can understand it might save 5 minutes, isn't there a number they can call to verify the validity of a CHP?

    Perhaps I would be OK with it, if the clerk worded it like this:

    "I can't ask or require that you give me a copy of your old permit, but if you happened to do so, it would save me some time..."

    TFred

    Yeah...looks like you're right TFred!

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Hate to poo-poo but you are mistaken...

    From newly organized section 18.2-308.02, we have:

    A. Any person 21 years of age or older may apply in writing to the clerk of the circuit court of the county or city in which he resides, or if he is a member of the United States armed forces, the county or city in which he is domiciled, for a five-year permit to carry a concealed handgun. There shall be no requirement regarding the length of time an applicant has been a resident or domiciliary of the county or city. The application shall be made under oath before a notary or other person qualified to take oaths and shall be made only on a form prescribed by the Department of State Police, in consultation with the Supreme Court, requiring only that information necessary to determine eligibility for the permit. No information or documentation other than that which is allowed on the application in accordance with this section may be requested or required by the clerk or the court.

    TFred
    So, to carry this further.... the counties that 'request' a self addressed stamped envelope.... that 'request' is now officially outside the scope of the Code? (the thought previously was they could 'request' one... but not mandate it.).

    Hello Fairfax County??

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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blk97F150 View Post
    So, to carry this further.... the counties that 'request' a self addressed stamped envelope.... that 'request' is now officially outside the scope of the Code? (the thought previously was they could 'request' one... but not mandate it.).

    Hello Fairfax County??
    And, hello Alexandria City?

  8. #8
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blk97F150 View Post
    So, to carry this further.... the counties that 'request' a self addressed stamped envelope.... that 'request' is now officially outside the scope of the Code? (the thought previously was they could 'request' one... but not mandate it.).

    Hello Fairfax County??
    That's the way it looks but as with most unenforceable .....whatcha gonna do about it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    That's the way it looks but as with most unenforceable .....whatcha gonna do about it?
    About the only thing we can do is point out the issue and request that they correct it. I suspect a couple localities may fix it... and, some will 'delay, deny, and defend'.. refusing to correct it.

    If enough localities refuse to correct it, and still request additional information, perhaps we can get the GA to add some 'bite' to the law in a future year...

  10. #10
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    I'm no expert on the Code of Virginia, but it sure seems to me that at least most sections that have to do with citizens violating the law automatically come with a penalty section. We need to push for penalty sections to become automatic additions to these sorts of laws that direct the government how to behave as well.

    If the law-makers are serious about their laws being obeyed, they add a penalty. If they do not, then it's not worth the paper it's printed on...

    TFred

  11. #11
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    I'm no expert on the Code of Virginia, but it sure seems to me that at least most sections that have to do with citizens violating the law automatically come with a penalty section. We need to push for penalty sections to become automatic additions to these sorts of laws that direct the government how to behave as well.

    If the law-makers are serious about their laws being obeyed, they add a penalty. If they do not, then it's not worth the paper it's printed on...

    TFred
    Wish I'd have thought of that

  12. #12
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Wish I'd have thought of that
    Maybe we should try to get a "general penalty" section passed, which says something like:

    Unless otherwise specified, any violation of the Code of Virginia with regard to an administrative task by an elected or appointed public official, or an employee of any state or local office shall be a Class 1 misdemeanor, punishable by a $1,000 fine and/or 1 year in jail.

    Ha... good luck with that!

    TFred

    ETA: The outrage would be deafening, and the response should be, "if it's a crime for me, why isn't it a crime for you?"
    Last edited by TFred; 07-08-2013 at 07:01 PM. Reason: Added a little

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    I suggested this one before but it didn't seem to take: It would be super if VCDL (or whatever organization) when they put out their pre-election who's naughty and who's nice lists started tracking which clerks clearly needed to be voted out of office. And then someone can look at that and make an informed decision.

    IMHO one problem that we have is that we seemingly have a never ending string of threads here about clerks who refuse to do their jobs or refuse to comply with the very laws that are directed at them. And other than the one or two situations that become news to the general public, nobody knows the daily battles being fought, for example, here in these threads. I think that a liberal dose of sunshine would be beneficial because the average voter probably gives as much consideration to who is elected to this constitutional positions because it doesn't seem to matter. Perhaps if they knew that "good old so and so" refuses to do their job or tramples on constitutional rights they might find a reason to care in the next election.

    </rant>
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+51.1-216

    Forgive my citing the whole section, but it's important to see how what I highlight fits in with the rest of it.

    51.1-216. Service retirement generally.

    A. Normal retirement.

    1. Any employee commencing employment or reemployment on or after July 1, 2001, and any employee who makes the election provided in 51.1-221, who is a member in service in any retirement program administered by the Virginia Retirement System at his normal retirement date with five or more years of creditable service (i) as a member in the retirement system established by this chapter, (ii) as a member in the retirement system established by Chapter 2 ( 51.1-200 et seq.) of this title, or (iii) while earning the benefits permitted by 51.1-138, may retire upon written notification to the Board, setting forth the date the retirement is to become effective.

    Effective December 31, 2003, any employee in service on June 30, 2002, and July 1, 2002, who is credited with five or more years of creditable service rendered under Chapter 1 ( 51.1-100 et seq.) of this title, Chapter 2 ( 51.1-200 et seq.) of this title, or this chapter shall not be subject to the vesting requirements of this section, and 51.1-138 and 51.1-205.

    2. Any other employee who is a member in service at his normal retirement date with five or more years of creditable service (i) as a member in the retirement system established by this chapter, (ii) as a member in the retirement system established by Chapter 2 ( 51.1-200 et seq.) of this title, or (iii) while earning the benefits permitted by 51.1-138 may retire upon written notification to the Board, setting forth the date the retirement is to become effective.

    Effective December 31, 2003, any employee in service on June 30, 2002, and July 1, 2002, who is credited with five or more years of creditable service rendered under Chapter 1 ( 51.1-100 et seq.) of this title, Chapter 2 ( 51.1-200 et seq.) of this title, or this chapter shall not be subject to the vesting requirements of this section, and 51.1-138 and 51.1-205.

    B. Early retirement.

    1. Any employee commencing employment or reemployment on or after July 1, 2001, and any employee who makes the election provided in 51.1-221, who is a member in service in any retirement program administered by the Virginia Retirement System other than the program established by this chapter shall retire pursuant to the early retirement provisions of the retirement program of which he is a member at the time of retirement.

    Effective December 31, 2003, any employee in service on June 30, 2002, and July 1, 2002, who is credited with five or more years of creditable service rendered under Chapter 1 ( 51.1-100 et seq.) of this title, Chapter 2 ( 51.1-200 et seq.) of this title, or this chapter shall not be subject to the vesting requirements of this section, and 51.1-138 and 51.1-205.

    2. Any other employee who is a member in service and who has attained his fiftieth birthday with five or more years of creditable service (i) as a member in the retirement system established by this chapter, (ii) as a member in the retirement system established by Chapter 2 ( 51.1-200 et seq.) of this title, or (iii) while earning the benefits permitted by 51.1-138 may retire upon written notification to the Board setting forth the date the retirement is to become effective.

    Effective December 31, 2003, any employee in service on June 30, 2002, and July 1, 2002, who is credited with five or more years of creditable service rendered under Chapter 1 ( 51.1-100 et seq.) of this title, Chapter 2 ( 51.1-200 et seq.) of this title, or this chapter shall not be subject to the vesting requirements of this section, and 51.1-138 and 51.1-205.

    C. Deferred retirement for members terminating service.

    1. Any employee commencing employment or reemployment on or after July 1, 2001, and any employee who makes the election provided in 51.1-221, who terminates service from any position with membership in any retirement program administered by the Virginia Retirement System, may retire under the provisions of subdivision A 1 or B 1 if (i) he is otherwise eligible for such benefits, (ii) he has not withdrawn his accumulated contributions prior to the effective date of his retirement, and (iii) he has five or more years of creditable service (a) as a member in the retirement system established by this chapter, (b) as a member in the retirement system established by Chapter 2 ( 51.1-200 et seq.) of this title, or (c) while earning the benefits permitted by 51.1-138 for which his employer has paid the contributions and such contributions cannot be withdrawn. For the purposes of this subsection, any requirements as to the member being in service shall not apply. No member shall be entitled to the benefits of this subsection if his employer certifies that his service was terminated because of dishonesty, malfeasance, or misfeasance in office. The certification may be appealed to the Board.

    Effective December 31, 2003, any employee in service on June 30, 2002, and July 1, 2002, who is credited with five or more years of creditable service rendered under Chapter 1 ( 51.1-100 et seq.) of this title, Chapter 2 ( 51.1-200 et seq.) of this title, or this chapter shall not be subject to the vesting requirements of this section, and 51.1-138 and 51.1-205.

    2. Any other member who terminates service after five or more years of creditable service (i) as a member in the retirement system established by this chapter, (ii) as a member in the retirement system established by Chapter 2 ( 51.1-200 et seq.) of this title, or (iii) while earning the benefits permitted by 51.1-138 may retire under the provisions of subdivision A 2 or B 2 if he has not withdrawn his accumulated contributions prior to the effective date of his retirement or if he has five or more years of creditable service (a) as a member in the retirement system established by this chapter, (b) as a member in the retirement system established by Chapter 2 ( 51.1-200 et seq.) of this title, or (c) while earning the benefits permitted by 51.1-138 for which his employer has paid the contributions and such contributions cannot be withdrawn. For the purposes of this subsection, any requirements as to the member being in service shall not apply.

    Effective December 31, 2003, any employee in service on June 30, 2002, and July 1, 2002, who is credited with five or more years of creditable service rendered under Chapter 1 ( 51.1-100 et seq.) of this title, Chapter 2 ( 51.1-200 et seq.) of this title, or this chapter shall not be subject to the vesting requirements of this section, and 51.1-138 and 51.1-205.

    D. Effective date of retirement. - The effective date of retirement shall be after the last day of service, but shall not be more than 90 days prior to the filing of the notice of retirement.

    E. Notification on behalf of member. - If the member is physically or mentally unable to submit written notification of his intention to retire, the member's appointing authority may submit notification on his behalf.
    So - the question now before the assemblage is - how do you show "dishonesty, malfeasance, or misfeasance in office"?

    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...000+cod+19.2-8

    http://www.wavy.com/dpp/news/crime/e...to-malfeasance - just an example of what constitutes malfeasance

    http://hamptonroads.com/2012/06/va-e...conduct-office - another example

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  15. #15
    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drdan01 View Post
    I suggested this one before but it didn't seem to take: It would be super if VCDL (or whatever organization) when they put out their pre-election who's naughty and who's nice lists started tracking which clerks clearly needed to be voted out of office. And then someone can look at that and make an informed decision.

    </rant>
    Not to put too fine a point on it, but VCDL is us - the members.

    I'm reasonably certain that if such a list were compiled and sent to the leadership, they would publicize it. And if it comes to endorsing candidates or recommending voting stances, they could pass it to the PAC for action.

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    not too sure about that...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tess View Post
    Not to put too fine a point on it, but VCDL is us - the members.

    I'm reasonably certain that if such a list were compiled and sent to the leadership, they would publicize it. And if it comes to endorsing candidates or recommending voting stances, they could pass it to the PAC for action.
    Dont be too sure about that Tess. Leadership of any org doesnt usually ask the "membership" what they think before they support candidates or issue. Just tell Phillip that the "membership" wants to support hunters rights(just an example) and see where that gets you.
    Last edited by AJG; 07-12-2013 at 11:30 AM.

  17. #17
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Contact the EMs and convince them to take that to the Board of Directors, who if they agree will direct the President to do that.

    The lines of communication are a bit smudged (I'm not allowed to discuss BoD elections) but they do exist.

    The point being that "we" should not get into the habit of calling Philip and asking him to address/fix/resolve something that "we" have not at least made an attempt to do. Let's take the same attitude as VCDL at the moment - wait and see if individual effort can resolve the matter before calling in the big guns. And no, I do not think the OP has exhausted all their options yet.

    stay safe.
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  18. #18
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AJG View Post
    Dont be too sure about that Tess. Leadership of any org doesnt usually ask the "membership" what they think before they support candidates or issue. Just tell Phillip that the "membership" wants to support hunters rights(just an example) and see where that gets you.
    Have to agree and disagree with everyone And the hunter issue is a good example

    Tess is absolutely right! We are VCDL.

    However, no one that I'm aware of has the authorization except Philip, to speak for VCDL. So taking up an issue in the name of the group would instantly bring down the wrath of the secret emails

    You can say I'm a VCDL member and yo mumma....but that won't get you far.

    Skid actually has the right approach. Take it to an EM...a good one and see where it goes. If VCDL doesn't see the situation the same way you do, take it on yourself. Many of us do. We can give it to VCDL after it's fixed.

    Lots of these things get corrected and VCDL never knows about it.
    Last edited by peter nap; 07-12-2013 at 01:06 PM.

  19. #19
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    EM???

    For those of us that dont know, what/who is a EM?

  20. #20
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AJG View Post
    For those of us that dont know, what/who is a EM?
    Executive member. Some good, some not so much. Check your PM

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