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Thread: Detained by Royal Oak police officer while open carrying

  1. #1
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    Detained by Royal Oak police officer while open carrying

    Hello, I was unlawfully detained by Royal Oak PD while openly carrying my rifle and sidearm this past weekend. I posted the video of the encounter on YouTube. I would like advice on whether or not I should file a complaint on the first officer. Thank you!
    My YouTube channel is:
    shyama1

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HfA...e_gdata_player
    Last edited by shawnixon; 07-11-2013 at 04:47 PM. Reason: forgot to put link

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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Why don't you just post a link to the video?

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    Quote Originally Posted by shawnixon View Post
    SNIP I was unlawfully detained by Royal Oak PD
    How did you determine you were unlawfully detained? That determination is a little more legally complex than "I wasn't doing anything wrong." See the first post at the link below. While that post is aimed at just walking away from a detention because the OCer thinks the cop lacks legal justification for a detention, the same elements apply about determining the legality of the detention.


    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...e-Cop-has-RAS&


    After you read that post, please come back and tell us how you determined it was an illegal detention. I'm not saying it wasn't; I just want to know how you determined it.
    Last edited by Citizen; 07-11-2013 at 12:21 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shawnixon View Post
    SNIP I would like advice on whether or not I should file a complaint on the first officer. Thank you!
    A formal written complaint is my minimum default setting for any police investigative encounter involving my gun. Even if there is no detention. That is to say, even if the investigative encounter is entirely consensual with no hint of compulsion.

    I set this standard because investigatively contacting someone about mere open carry proves the cop feels exercising a fundamental human right, an enumerated right, is worthy of suspicion. No. No. NO!

    Furthermore, cops can observe from a distance. Without genuine reasonable articulable suspicion (RAS), there is no need to even consensually contact an open carrier.
    Last edited by Citizen; 07-11-2013 at 12:43 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    sorry, just figured out how to

    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    Why don't you just post a link to the video?
    I just added the link. Thank you.

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    unlawfully detained?

    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    How did you determine you were unlawfully detained? That determination is a little more legally complex than "I wasn't doing anything wrong." See the first post at the link below. While that post is aimed at just walking away from a detention because the OCer thinks the cop lacks legal justification for a detention, the same elements apply about determining the legality of the detention.


    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...e-Cop-has-RAS&


    After you read that post, please come back and tell us how you determined it was an illegal detention. I'm not saying it wasn't; I just want to know how you determined it.
    I read your article, and do believe that the detainment was not lawful. I also added a link to my video. Thank you for your time.

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    Further action, a complaint, FOIA demand in anticipation of legal action?
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    A formal written complaint is my minimum default setting for any police investigative encounter involving my gun. Even if there is no detention. That is to say, even if the investigative encounter is entirely consensual with no hint of compulsion.

    I set this standard because investigatively contacting someone about mere open carry proves the cop feels exercising a fundamental human right, an enumerated right, is worthy of suspicion. No. No. NO!

    Furthermore, cops can observe from a distance. Without genuine reasonable articulable suspicion (RAS), there is no need to even consensually contact an open carrier.

    Thanks for your response. I know that I need to file a complaint. I am a little nervous about going to the police station. I guess I don't want to include anymore harassment.

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    Complaints Against Department Complaints Form

    Last edited by Nightmare; 07-11-2013 at 05:12 PM.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shawnixon View Post
    I read your article, and do believe that the detainment was not lawful. I also added a link to my video. Thank you for your time.
    I am with citizen on this one. All the indicators are that this detention was unlawful. You believe it was unlawful. I believe it was unlawful. Citizen almost surely believes it was unlawful. The only problem is that none of us, not even the cops know. The lawfulness cannot be known until a judge examines the officer's RAS or lack thereof and makes an official ruling on the question.

    In the case of your detention, there is no longer any danger involved in assuming that your detention was unlawful. However, making such an assumption during a detention, when that assumption proves to be wrong (per a judge later, when he has the luxury of time that you did not), could cause you to commit a crime.

    I always recommend assuming any detention is lawful and complying as minimally as possible with the law during the detention.

    1. Ask if you are "free to go." Please use those words. If you are not free to go, you have been "seized;" you are detained..

    2. If the officer says yes, LEAVE.

    3. If the officer says no, go to step A.

    4. If the officer does not answer, slowly start to leave.

    5. If the officer stops you by word or deed, you have been seized. Go to step A.

    6. If the officer makes no attempt to stop you, keep going, remain prepared to be stopped again.
    _______________

    A. Advise the officer that you agree to no searches or seizures. You will, however, resist no efforts by the officer to force a search or seizure upon you.

    B. Advise the officer that you have nothing to say.

    C. If the officer asks you for your name, give it. (Depending on the State, you may also be required to give other information, such as address or date of birth.)

    D. If the officer demands your firearm, inform him that you will not touch your firearm, but that you will not resist him seizing it. Ask him to take it in the holster.

    E. Keep asking if you are free to go. As soon as the officer says yes, LEAVE.

    F. Other than that, keep your mouth shut. Argue the officer's behavior later with his superiors, in court, with the city attorney, etc.

    Have your audio or video recorder every second that you are carrying in public. If something happens that will not be recorded, make a comment that will be. (e.g. "Please stop grabbing my arm.")

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    Quote Originally Posted by shawnixon View Post
    Thanks for your response. I know that I need to file a complaint. I am a little nervous about going to the police station. I guess I don't want to include anymore harassment.
    Don't go to the station.

    Do it in writing. You don't even have to use the form, but you can use the form to guide you on what information to include. The First Amendment guarantees your right to petition government for redress of grievances (complain), and makes no requirement that you use a particular government form. Be sure to include what redress you want--what you want them to do about it.

    Also, police accreditation agencies may require the department to investigate complaints. If you go in person and speak about it, there is no official record. Over the years, we've learned that cops luuuuv spoken complaints because there is no paper trail. However, a formal written complaint often triggers an internal affairs investigation.

    Also, expect to get a call from whichever cop investigates the complaint. And, be prepared to be questioned (interrogated) in that phone call. The cop may even say he's asking for complete information, when what he's really doing is investigating you and looking for holes in your story. Just be sure to write a complaint that is very complete on the facts. That way you can tell the investigator, "The petition for redress is complete; questions are not necessary. It is sufficient for you to act upon."
    Last edited by Citizen; 07-11-2013 at 07:11 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Clearly LEO # 1, (you should of requested his name) was an ignorant wannabe tough guy.

    Again in these LEO v legal carrying citizen encounters, The video camera is our best friend.

    If Leo #1 is that stupid when the camera is on just imagine when the camera is OFF.

    Unreal.

    Best regards.

    CCJ

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    Re: Detained by Royal Oak police officer while open carrying

    This thread should be moved to the MI sub forum. This said, Royal Oak has a long history of abusing OCers. You were treated well compared to others who dared to OC there in the past. See Arts, Beats & Eats fiasco from 2010 to get a idea of how oblivious your city leaders are to MI law. Good luck & watch your back.

    A refugee from the Metro-Detroit area.
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    “Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values. Your values become your destiny.” by Mahatma Gandhi

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    thamks


    Thank you for your help!

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    thank you!

    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    I am with citizen on this one. All the indicators are that this detention was unlawful. You believe it was unlawful. I believe it was unlawful. Citizen almost surely believes it was unlawful. The only problem is that none of us, not even the cops know. The lawfulness cannot be known until a judge examines the officer's RAS or lack thereof and makes an official ruling on the question.

    In the case of your detention, there is no longer any danger involved in assuming that your detention was unlawful. However, making such an assumption during a detention, when that assumption proves to be wrong (per a judge later, when he has the luxury of time that you did not), could cause you to commit a crime.

    I always recommend assuming any detention is lawful and complying as minimally as possible with the law during the detention.

    1. Ask if you are "free to go." Please use those words. If you are not free to go, you have been "seized;" you are detained..

    2. If the officer says yes, LEAVE.

    3. If the officer says no, go to step A.

    4. If the officer does not answer, slowly start to leave.

    5. If the officer stops you by word or deed, you have been seized. Go to step A.

    6. If the officer makes no attempt to stop you, keep going, remain prepared to be stopped again.
    _______________

    A. Advise the officer that you agree to no searches or seizures. You will, however, resist no efforts by the officer to force a search or seizure upon you.

    B. Advise the officer that you have nothing to say.

    C. If the officer asks you for your name, give it. (Depending on the State, you may also be required to give other information, such as address or date of birth.)

    D. If the officer demands your firearm, inform him that you will not touch your firearm, but that you will not resist him seizing it. Ask him to take it in the holster.

    E. Keep asking if you are free to go. As soon as the officer says yes, LEAVE.

    F. Other than that, keep your mouth shut. Argue the officer's behavior later with his superiors, in court, with the city attorney, etc.

    Have your audio or video recorder every second that you are carrying in public. If something happens that will not be recorded, make a comment that will be. (e.g. "Please stop grabbing my arm.")
    I really appreciate your help!

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    I filed a LEO complaint after being bullied with the weapon as an excuse. When I sent my complaint to the ChoP, I also sent a complete copy to the Mayor and the City attorney. This way the complaint became (as all correspondence with the mayor) a public record.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    It seems like you engaged the guy, answering his questions, asking questions ....

    How does he know if you are not a looney? Well, that's his issue, not yours ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    It seems like you engaged the guy, answering his questions, asking questions ....

    How does he know if you are not a looney? Well, that's his issue, not yours ...
    This encounter says a whole lot about how successful the open carry movement has been.

    The citizen is open carrying a handgun and a long gun. The police officer does not point his gun, he does not even draw his gun from the holster. He does not try to have the citizen self-disarm (drop the rifle, drop the handgun, etc.). No cop fear of firearms.

    Notice that the cop is, however, very afraid of the citizen collecting video evidence.

    Sorry Shawnixon, I do not mean to trivialize your gun experience, but your video shows how successful this movement has been since the Danbus incidents.

    Live Free or Die,
    Thundar
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

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    The camera is the equalizer when dealing with ignorant uneducated tyrants that feel a person has a problem simply because a person exercises his rights and will not cooperate with the uneducated tyrants unlawful,unconstitutional demands.

    To the antis and uneducated leos, a person exercising his/her rights must have a mental issue, go figure.

    OP, good job.

    CCJ

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    thank you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Thundar View Post
    This encounter says a whole lot about how successful the open carry movement has been.

    The citizen is open carrying a handgun and a long gun. The police officer does not point his gun, he does not even draw his gun from the holster. He does not try to have the citizen self-disarm (drop the rifle, drop the handgun, etc.). No cop fear of firearms.

    Notice that the cop is, however, very afraid of the citizen collecting video evidence.

    Sorry Shawnixon, I do not mean to trivialize your gun experience, but your video shows how successful this movement has been since the Danbus incidents.

    Live Free or Die,
    Thundar
    No offense taken. Thank you sir, for your insight and support!

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    thank you!

    Quote Originally Posted by countryclubjoe View Post
    The camera is the equalizer when dealing with ignorant uneducated tyrants that feel a person has a problem simply because a person exercises his rights and will not cooperate with the uneducated tyrants unlawful,unconstitutional demands.

    To the antis and uneducated leos, a person exercising his/her rights must have a mental issue, go figure.

    OP, good job.

    CCJ
    Camera rolling seems to be something LEOs fear very much. I will keep mine rolling for sure. Thank you!

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    Regular Member J1MB0B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    I am with citizen on this one. All the indicators are that this detention was unlawful. You believe it was unlawful. I believe it was unlawful. Citizen almost surely believes it was unlawful. The only problem is that none of us, not even the cops know. The lawfulness cannot be known until a judge examines the officer's RAS or lack thereof and makes an official ruling on the question.

    In the case of your detention, there is no longer any danger involved in assuming that your detention was unlawful. However, making such an assumption during a detention, when that assumption proves to be wrong (per a judge later, when he has the luxury of time that you did not), could cause you to commit a crime.

    I always recommend assuming any detention is lawful and complying as minimally as possible with the law during the detention.

    1. Ask if you are "free to go." Please use those words. If you are not free to go, you have been "seized;" you are detained..

    2. If the officer says yes, LEAVE.

    3. If the officer says no, go to step A.

    4. If the officer does not answer, slowly start to leave.

    5. If the officer stops you by word or deed, you have been seized. Go to step A.

    6. If the officer makes no attempt to stop you, keep going, remain prepared to be stopped again.
    _______________

    A. Advise the officer that you agree to no searches or seizures. You will, however, resist no efforts by the officer to force a search or seizure upon you.

    B. Advise the officer that you have nothing to say.

    C. If the officer asks you for your name, give it. (Depending on the State, you may also be required to give other information, such as address or date of birth.)

    D. If the officer demands your firearm, inform him that you will not touch your firearm, but that you will not resist him seizing it. Ask him to take it in the holster.

    E. Keep asking if you are free to go. As soon as the officer says yes, LEAVE.

    F. Other than that, keep your mouth shut. Argue the officer's behavior later with his superiors, in court, with the city attorney, etc.

    Have your audio or video recorder every second that you are carrying in public. If something happens that will not be recorded, make a comment that will be. (e.g. "Please stop grabbing my arm.")
    I think this is very good advice. Thankfully, I have not needed to follow it yet. The only part I disagree with, is point C. Depending on the laws of the state you are in, you may not be required to even give your name, why give them anything that you are not required by law to give?

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    Quote Originally Posted by countryclubjoe View Post
    The camera is the equalizer when dealing with ignorant uneducated tyrants that feel a person has a problem simply because a person exercises his rights and will not cooperate with the uneducated tyrants unlawful,unconstitutional demands.

    To the antis and uneducated leos, a person exercising his/her rights must have a mental issue, go figure.

    OP, good job.

    CCJ
    That's right .. w/o the camera "shield", the OP likely would have some stitches ...

    Don't talk to cops, don't try to edumacate them ....

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    Quote Originally Posted by J1MB0B View Post
    I think this is very good advice. Thankfully, I have not needed to follow it yet. The only part I disagree with, is point C. Depending on the laws of the state you are in, you may not be required to even give your name, why give them anything that you are not required by law to give?
    In the big picture, the text of the law is the starting point for figuring out tactics.

    Also, even if there is no state law, there may be local ordinances. For example, VA lacks a stop-and-identify statute, but we've confirmed a number of localities have stop-and-identify ordinances. I recall the penalities for violation being rather harsh (lopsided in the cops' favor) as misdemeanors that can result in up to one year in jail and/or a fine up to $2500.

    So, even if you could be absolutely certain a judge will rule the cop had no grounds for detaining you, which I think can be pretty tricky to figure out, you still have to take local ordinances into account. And, local ordinances can change every time the city council or county supervisors meet.

    With that said, if you really want to stand on your rights, there are other tactics besides an outright immediate refusal to an identity document demand. Some options to prompt thinking up more:

    "No offense, officer, but I would not voluntarily give my ID. Are you demanding it?"

    "No offense, officer, but I'm not even required to carry ID."

    "No offense, officer, but if you get to the point you have probable cause to issue a summons, and write it all out, at that point, I'll provide my ID." (this tactic developed from a reort by a cop/former forum member who said a VA cop will arrest a misdemeanant who also then refuses document identity on the basis that the refusal gives the cop reason to believe the misdemeanant will not show up in court.)

    Of course, this stuff only comes into the picture after you refuse consent to an encounter, ask to leave, and refuse to answer questions without an attorney--these points are much more important than verbal fencing with the cop about your identity document.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Detained by Royal Oak police officer while open carrying

    Quote Originally Posted by J1MB0B View Post
    I think this is very good advice. Thankfully, I have not needed to follow it yet. The only part I disagree with, is point C. Depending on the laws of the state you are in, you may not be required to even give your name, why give them anything that you are not required by law to give?
    I don't know of such a State. Can anyone chime in with any States they know of that don't even require that a lawful detainee state his name when the officer demands it?


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