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Detained by Royal Oak police officer while open carrying

Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
SNIP I was unlawfully detained by Royal Oak PD

How did you determine you were unlawfully detained? That determination is a little more legally complex than "I wasn't doing anything wrong." See the first post at the link below. While that post is aimed at just walking away from a detention because the OCer thinks the cop lacks legal justification for a detention, the same elements apply about determining the legality of the detention.


http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...-Correctly-Determine-Whether-the-Cop-has-RAS&


After you read that post, please come back and tell us how you determined it was an illegal detention. I'm not saying it wasn't; I just want to know how you determined it.
 
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Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
SNIP I would like advice on whether or not I should file a complaint on the first officer. Thank you!

A formal written complaint is my minimum default setting for any police investigative encounter involving my gun. Even if there is no detention. That is to say, even if the investigative encounter is entirely consensual with no hint of compulsion.

I set this standard because investigatively contacting someone about mere open carry proves the cop feels exercising a fundamental human right, an enumerated right, is worthy of suspicion. No. No. NO!

Furthermore, cops can observe from a distance. Without genuine reasonable articulable suspicion (RAS), there is no need to even consensually contact an open carrier.
 
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shawnixon

New member
Joined
Jul 7, 2013
Messages
8
Location
Royal Oak, Michihan
unlawfully detained?

How did you determine you were unlawfully detained? That determination is a little more legally complex than "I wasn't doing anything wrong." See the first post at the link below. While that post is aimed at just walking away from a detention because the OCer thinks the cop lacks legal justification for a detention, the same elements apply about determining the legality of the detention.


http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...-Correctly-Determine-Whether-the-Cop-has-RAS&


After you read that post, please come back and tell us how you determined it was an illegal detention. I'm not saying it wasn't; I just want to know how you determined it.

I read your article, and do believe that the detainment was not lawful. I also added a link to my video. Thank you for your time.
 

shawnixon

New member
Joined
Jul 7, 2013
Messages
8
Location
Royal Oak, Michihan
A formal written complaint is my minimum default setting for any police investigative encounter involving my gun. Even if there is no detention. That is to say, even if the investigative encounter is entirely consensual with no hint of compulsion.

I set this standard because investigatively contacting someone about mere open carry proves the cop feels exercising a fundamental human right, an enumerated right, is worthy of suspicion. No. No. NO!

Furthermore, cops can observe from a distance. Without genuine reasonable articulable suspicion (RAS), there is no need to even consensually contact an open carrier.


Thanks for your response. I know that I need to file a complaint. I am a little nervous about going to the police station. I guess I don't want to include anymore harassment.
 

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
I read your article, and do believe that the detainment was not lawful. I also added a link to my video. Thank you for your time.

I am with citizen on this one. All the indicators are that this detention was unlawful. You believe it was unlawful. I believe it was unlawful. Citizen almost surely believes it was unlawful. The only problem is that none of us, not even the cops know. The lawfulness cannot be known until a judge examines the officer's RAS or lack thereof and makes an official ruling on the question.

In the case of your detention, there is no longer any danger involved in assuming that your detention was unlawful. However, making such an assumption during a detention, when that assumption proves to be wrong (per a judge later, when he has the luxury of time that you did not), could cause you to commit a crime.

I always recommend assuming any detention is lawful and complying as minimally as possible with the law during the detention.

1. Ask if you are "free to go." Please use those words. If you are not free to go, you have been "seized;" you are detained..

2. If the officer says yes, LEAVE.

3. If the officer says no, go to step A.

4. If the officer does not answer, slowly start to leave.

5. If the officer stops you by word or deed, you have been seized. Go to step A.

6. If the officer makes no attempt to stop you, keep going, remain prepared to be stopped again.
_______________

A. Advise the officer that you agree to no searches or seizures. You will, however, resist no efforts by the officer to force a search or seizure upon you.

B. Advise the officer that you have nothing to say.

C. If the officer asks you for your name, give it. (Depending on the State, you may also be required to give other information, such as address or date of birth.)

D. If the officer demands your firearm, inform him that you will not touch your firearm, but that you will not resist him seizing it. Ask him to take it in the holster.

E. Keep asking if you are free to go. As soon as the officer says yes, LEAVE.

F. Other than that, keep your mouth shut. Argue the officer's behavior later with his superiors, in court, with the city attorney, etc.

Have your audio or video recorder every second that you are carrying in public. If something happens that will not be recorded, make a comment that will be. (e.g. "Please stop grabbing my arm.")
 

Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
Thanks for your response. I know that I need to file a complaint. I am a little nervous about going to the police station. I guess I don't want to include anymore harassment.

Don't go to the station.

Do it in writing. You don't even have to use the form, but you can use the form to guide you on what information to include. The First Amendment guarantees your right to petition government for redress of grievances (complain), and makes no requirement that you use a particular government form. Be sure to include what redress you want--what you want them to do about it.

Also, police accreditation agencies may require the department to investigate complaints. If you go in person and speak about it, there is no official record. Over the years, we've learned that cops luuuuv spoken complaints because there is no paper trail. However, a formal written complaint often triggers an internal affairs investigation.

Also, expect to get a call from whichever cop investigates the complaint. And, be prepared to be questioned (interrogated) in that phone call. The cop may even say he's asking for complete information, when what he's really doing is investigating you and looking for holes in your story. Just be sure to write a complaint that is very complete on the facts. That way you can tell the investigator, "The petition for redress is complete; questions are not necessary. It is sufficient for you to act upon."
 
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countryclubjoe

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
2,505
Location
nj
Clearly LEO # 1, (you should of requested his name) was an ignorant wannabe tough guy.

Again in these LEO v legal carrying citizen encounters, The video camera is our best friend.

If Leo #1 is that stupid when the camera is on just imagine when the camera is OFF.

Unreal.

Best regards.

CCJ
 

FreeInAZ

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2012
Messages
2,508
Location
Secret Bunker
This thread should be moved to the MI sub forum. This said, Royal Oak has a long history of abusing OCers. You were treated well compared to others who dared to OC there in the past. See Arts, Beats & Eats fiasco from 2010 to get a idea of how oblivious your city leaders are to MI law. Good luck & watch your back.

A refugee from the Metro-Detroit area.
 

shawnixon

New member
Joined
Jul 7, 2013
Messages
8
Location
Royal Oak, Michihan
thank you!

I am with citizen on this one. All the indicators are that this detention was unlawful. You believe it was unlawful. I believe it was unlawful. Citizen almost surely believes it was unlawful. The only problem is that none of us, not even the cops know. The lawfulness cannot be known until a judge examines the officer's RAS or lack thereof and makes an official ruling on the question.

In the case of your detention, there is no longer any danger involved in assuming that your detention was unlawful. However, making such an assumption during a detention, when that assumption proves to be wrong (per a judge later, when he has the luxury of time that you did not), could cause you to commit a crime.

I always recommend assuming any detention is lawful and complying as minimally as possible with the law during the detention.

1. Ask if you are "free to go." Please use those words. If you are not free to go, you have been "seized;" you are detained..

2. If the officer says yes, LEAVE.

3. If the officer says no, go to step A.

4. If the officer does not answer, slowly start to leave.

5. If the officer stops you by word or deed, you have been seized. Go to step A.

6. If the officer makes no attempt to stop you, keep going, remain prepared to be stopped again.
_______________

A. Advise the officer that you agree to no searches or seizures. You will, however, resist no efforts by the officer to force a search or seizure upon you.

B. Advise the officer that you have nothing to say.

C. If the officer asks you for your name, give it. (Depending on the State, you may also be required to give other information, such as address or date of birth.)

D. If the officer demands your firearm, inform him that you will not touch your firearm, but that you will not resist him seizing it. Ask him to take it in the holster.

E. Keep asking if you are free to go. As soon as the officer says yes, LEAVE.

F. Other than that, keep your mouth shut. Argue the officer's behavior later with his superiors, in court, with the city attorney, etc.

Have your audio or video recorder every second that you are carrying in public. If something happens that will not be recorded, make a comment that will be. (e.g. "Please stop grabbing my arm.")

I really appreciate your help!
 

MSG Laigaie

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 10, 2011
Messages
3,239
Location
Philipsburg, Montana
I filed a LEO complaint after being bullied with the weapon as an excuse. When I sent my complaint to the ChoP, I also sent a complete copy to the Mayor and the City attorney. This way the complaint became (as all correspondence with the mayor) a public record.
 

davidmcbeth

Banned
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
16,167
Location
earth's crust
It seems like you engaged the guy, answering his questions, asking questions ....

How does he know if you are not a looney? Well, that's his issue, not yours ...
 

Thundar

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 12, 2007
Messages
4,946
Location
Newport News, Virginia, USA
It seems like you engaged the guy, answering his questions, asking questions ....

How does he know if you are not a looney? Well, that's his issue, not yours ...

This encounter says a whole lot about how successful the open carry movement has been.

The citizen is open carrying a handgun and a long gun. The police officer does not point his gun, he does not even draw his gun from the holster. He does not try to have the citizen self-disarm (drop the rifle, drop the handgun, etc.). No cop fear of firearms.

Notice that the cop is, however, very afraid of the citizen collecting video evidence.

Sorry Shawnixon, I do not mean to trivialize your gun experience, but your video shows how successful this movement has been since the Danbus incidents.

Live Free or Die,
Thundar
 

countryclubjoe

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
2,505
Location
nj
The camera is the equalizer when dealing with ignorant uneducated tyrants that feel a person has a problem simply because a person exercises his rights and will not cooperate with the uneducated tyrants unlawful,unconstitutional demands.

To the antis and uneducated leos, a person exercising his/her rights must have a mental issue, go figure.

OP, good job.

CCJ
 

shawnixon

New member
Joined
Jul 7, 2013
Messages
8
Location
Royal Oak, Michihan
thank you!

This encounter says a whole lot about how successful the open carry movement has been.

The citizen is open carrying a handgun and a long gun. The police officer does not point his gun, he does not even draw his gun from the holster. He does not try to have the citizen self-disarm (drop the rifle, drop the handgun, etc.). No cop fear of firearms.

Notice that the cop is, however, very afraid of the citizen collecting video evidence.

Sorry Shawnixon, I do not mean to trivialize your gun experience, but your video shows how successful this movement has been since the Danbus incidents.

Live Free or Die,
Thundar

No offense taken. Thank you sir, for your insight and support!
 

shawnixon

New member
Joined
Jul 7, 2013
Messages
8
Location
Royal Oak, Michihan
thank you!

The camera is the equalizer when dealing with ignorant uneducated tyrants that feel a person has a problem simply because a person exercises his rights and will not cooperate with the uneducated tyrants unlawful,unconstitutional demands.

To the antis and uneducated leos, a person exercising his/her rights must have a mental issue, go figure.

OP, good job.

CCJ

Camera rolling seems to be something LEOs fear very much. I will keep mine rolling for sure. Thank you!
 

J1MB0B

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 15, 2011
Messages
239
Location
Tacoma, Washington
I am with citizen on this one. All the indicators are that this detention was unlawful. You believe it was unlawful. I believe it was unlawful. Citizen almost surely believes it was unlawful. The only problem is that none of us, not even the cops know. The lawfulness cannot be known until a judge examines the officer's RAS or lack thereof and makes an official ruling on the question.

In the case of your detention, there is no longer any danger involved in assuming that your detention was unlawful. However, making such an assumption during a detention, when that assumption proves to be wrong (per a judge later, when he has the luxury of time that you did not), could cause you to commit a crime.

I always recommend assuming any detention is lawful and complying as minimally as possible with the law during the detention.

1. Ask if you are "free to go." Please use those words. If you are not free to go, you have been "seized;" you are detained..

2. If the officer says yes, LEAVE.

3. If the officer says no, go to step A.

4. If the officer does not answer, slowly start to leave.

5. If the officer stops you by word or deed, you have been seized. Go to step A.

6. If the officer makes no attempt to stop you, keep going, remain prepared to be stopped again.
_______________

A. Advise the officer that you agree to no searches or seizures. You will, however, resist no efforts by the officer to force a search or seizure upon you.

B. Advise the officer that you have nothing to say.

C. If the officer asks you for your name, give it. (Depending on the State, you may also be required to give other information, such as address or date of birth.)

D. If the officer demands your firearm, inform him that you will not touch your firearm, but that you will not resist him seizing it. Ask him to take it in the holster.

E. Keep asking if you are free to go. As soon as the officer says yes, LEAVE.

F. Other than that, keep your mouth shut. Argue the officer's behavior later with his superiors, in court, with the city attorney, etc.

Have your audio or video recorder every second that you are carrying in public. If something happens that will not be recorded, make a comment that will be. (e.g. "Please stop grabbing my arm.")

I think this is very good advice. Thankfully, I have not needed to follow it yet. The only part I disagree with, is point C. Depending on the laws of the state you are in, you may not be required to even give your name, why give them anything that you are not required by law to give?
 
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