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Thread: Sheep Pasture 2

  1. #1
    >The_Liberal<
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    Sheep Pasture 2

    Grapeshot,
    In this type of open forum it is impossible to censor someone. I could always come back. I'd also like to know why this post doesn't count as LEO bashing. On the other hand if I did offend any police out there I do apologize for it.

    MKEgal, would you please clarify how you interpret "automatic pistol" from the previous discussion I'm seeing a couple different definitions out on the internet.

    That said, I read the gun facts file and it doesn't specifically address how carrying a gun makes someone safer. Could I ask the rest of you why it's better to be walking around with loaded semi-automatic handguns when it seems to be more dangerous to do so?

  2. #2
    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by >The_Liberal< View Post
    ...That said, I read the gun facts file and it doesn't specifically address how carrying a gun makes someone safer. Could I ask the rest of you why it's better to be walking around with loaded semi-automatic handguns when it seems to be more dangerous to do so?
    It made me 'safer' in that I'm more circumspect, calmer, more likely to blow off an insult, or a driving incursion. I will not go to places that are risky, partly because I don't want to be provoked. I'm more aware of dangerous situations than before having contemplated them.

    Perhaps you think it's dangerous in the way carrying a handgrenade with a teflon pin might be risky. But after several years of carrying with a round in the chamber I have no greater fear than I do driving a 2 ton vehicle (admittedly with air bags) 70 mph on the interstate, in fact it's a LOT safer. Guns just don't jump out of holsters and go *bang*. (Research modern handguns and striker block safeties, for example).

    Maybe if you're more specific as to how it's more dangerous? The chief danger is carrying in an area where the law enforcement community is reactionary, in my view. Being very non-threatening looking I mostly get kind looks and smiles from staties at gun shows.

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by >The_Liberal< View Post
    MKEgal, would you please clarify how you interpret "automatic pistol" Web definitions
    a pistol that will keep firing until the ammunition is gone or the trigger is released.
    wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn




    That said, I read the gun facts file and it doesn't specifically address how carrying a gun makes someone safer. Could I ask the rest of you why it's better to be walking around with loaded semi-automatic handguns when it seems to be more dangerous to do so?
    In part one, many people who are unfamiliar with weapons mix the "auto" and "semi-auto" concept. The words are easily mixed and throw a rather large misnomer around. an "auto" is a machine gun and they are highly regulated(not illegal). Most of us carry "semi-autos" (or revolvers) that will only dispense one round per application of trigger. This is not a minor point.

    In part two.......I looked at your "more dangerous" reference. You must not accept everything you hear or read as "gospel". Look closely at who is making the assertions of "more dangerous". There are those who will tell you only partial truth (really, there are people like that) or "truth" to fit their argument

    Quote Originally Posted by >The_Liberal< View Post
    Wouldn't someone be alarmed by something.......
    If so, Wouldn't children be afraid of someone carrying a loaded handgun out in the open?
    I am old. I grew up with weapons in my life and saw them as tools. Why would you teach a child to fear an inanimate object? Why would you not teach a child to be able to deal with life? Today, there are people who fear weapons and believe that everyone else should too.

    Quote Originally Posted by >The_Liberal< View Post
    (on calling the police)
    (1) One should probably call them. 911 Is set up to work even on phone that don't normally work.

    (2) I'm too busy teaching them not to be fearful and ignorant of people. If something is dangerous you should respect and fear it.

    (3) Would it be too much to ask to at lease carry just automatic handguns than the semi-automatic guns used in so many mass-shootings that spray-fired many people during those tragic events?

    (4) Or maybe not use assault clips that carry up 100 bullets?
    1. Bad guy assaulting me....phone in left hand...gun in right hand...which one to use???
    2. So...you are tooo busy. If it is dangerous, respect it, learn it, do not fear it.
    3. See my first line. You are demonstrating that you have no knowledge of firearms. They do not "spray" bullets. That is a media boilerplate expression to instill fear in the public.
    4. Again, your lack of information is showing. No such thing as an "assault clip". The little box the bullets go in are called magazines.

    Welcome to OCDO. I hope you stay around long enough to understand that we are not "bad people". We are Moms and Dads and Cooks and truck drivers. Just regular folks who are armed, once again, and living normal lives.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Regular Member SFCRetired's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by >The_Liberal< View Post
    Grapeshot,
    In this type of open forum it is impossible to censor someone. I could always come back. I'd also like to know why this post doesn't count as LEO bashing. On the other hand if I did offend any police out there I do apologize for it.

    MKEgal, would you please clarify how you interpret "automatic pistol" from the previous discussion I'm seeing a couple different definitions out on the internet.

    That said, I read the gun facts file and it doesn't specifically address how carrying a gun makes someone safer. Could I ask the rest of you why it's better to be walking around with loaded semi-automatic handguns when it seems to be more dangerous to do so?
    1. That particular post addressed the actions of one part of one department and did not paint every police officer in the nation with the same brush. That, IMHO, is not "LEO bashing" because it is directed at only those whose motives were questionable.

    2. Not MKEgal, but I have heard the terms "automatic" and "semi-automatic" used interchangeably many times. By strict definition, "automatic" means that the weapon fires multiple times with one trigger pull. "Semi-automatic" requires a trigger pull for each round fired.

    3. I am far safer walking around openly carrying a loaded semi-automatic handgun for the simple reason that, without it, there is that element of our society who would see me as an old, somewhat decrepit, soft target and would act accordingly. With it, their point of view seems to change drastically. As evidence of this, I have been approached several times by individuals that I would classify as, at best, "shady". Upon seeing my holstered handgun, they, without saying a word, turned around and left.

    Last point: Whether it is safer or not, whether it disturbs others or not, it is my right, as guaranteed, not granted, by both the Bill of Rights to our Constitution and by the Constitution of my state. I have encountered very few people who felt alarmed or intimidated by this sixty-nine year old grandfather carrying a sidearm.
    "Happiness is a warm shotgun!!"
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    Buddy. You are already 'shooting' yourself in the leg. No point discussing with you. Your mind is already made up. Can't change mine on the gun issue. Do you own a home? Then get rid of the homeowner's insurance. You don't need it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by >The_Liberal< View Post
    Grapeshot,
    In this type of open forum it is impossible to censor someone. I could always come back. I'd also like to know why this post doesn't count as LEO bashing. ?
    Because you are discussing a specific instance ... based on facts ... maybe?

    I don't think that the forum discourages discussion of bad acts ... + it was funny "dude..."
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 07-12-2013 at 08:37 PM.

  7. #7
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    "In this type of open forum it is impossible to censor someone"

    LOL! In talking with one of the moderators, I learned exactly how easy it is.
    Wish there were some way to tie it to a certain person, rather than just an account.
    That would stop all these sock puppets.

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    Regular Member CCinMaine's Avatar
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    Re: Sheep Pasture 2

    How doesn't carrying a firearm protect you? Wouldn't carrying a knife, pepper spray, a rock, or a stick make you safer in the event you're being attacked by someone with no regard for your life? A handgun is just a specialized tool to defend your life(of course there are other applications for it but this is why we carry it). I can say with utmost certainty that everyone on here does NOT want to EVER shoot someone. Firearms today are very safe. There is no way my firearm that I carry 100% of the time will ever go off without my finger on the trigger.

  9. #9
    >The_Liberal<
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    Thank you all for your responses. This is really interesting to talk to you all about gun functions. If you would entertain me and perhaps apply it to the George Zimmerman trial. I noticed a couple articles on CNN I would like to ask you all about:

    Article 1: http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/11/opinio...rticle_sidebar
    Article 2: http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2013/07/0...iref=allsearch

    The first one seems to have some slight neutrality issues, but I'm curious about the passage:
    "... We're told over and over that if Zimmerman was afraid of Martin, according to Florida law, he had the right to put a bullet in the chamber of his concealed handgun, get out of his car after being told not to by the 911 dispatcher and follow and confront Martin and shoot him to death."

    I get it that you all like to keep your guns loaded as you carry them.

    This seems a little strange that someone can have the right to shoot another person to death, but what of Mr. Zimmerman chambering a round before getting out of his car? First, why would someone put a round in their chamber if they already have 7 in their clip? Is it normal for someone to chamber a round before getting out of a car? Why would Wisconsin have a law specifically legalizing the act of loading a handgun in a car?

    As for the second article. Is it really normal to "carry hot?" What other saftey features do hand guns have besides the "long trigger pull?"

  10. #10
    Regular Member Plankton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by >The_Liberal< View Post
    Thank you all for your responses. This is really interesting to talk to you all about gun functions. If you would entertain me and perhaps apply it to the George Zimmerman trial. I noticed a couple articles on CNN I would like to ask you all about:

    Article 1: http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/11/opinio...rticle_sidebar
    Article 2: http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2013/07/0...iref=allsearch

    The first one seems to have some slight neutrality issues, but I'm curious about the passage:
    "... We're told over and over that if Zimmerman was afraid of Martin, according to Florida law, he had the right to put a bullet in the chamber of his concealed handgun, get out of his car after being told not to by the 911 dispatcher and follow and confront Martin and shoot him to death."

    I get it that you all like to keep your guns loaded as you carry them.

    This seems a little strange that someone can have the right to shoot another person to death, but what of Mr. Zimmerman chambering a round before getting out of his car? First, why would someone put a round in their chamber if they already have 7 in their clip? Is it normal for someone to chamber a round before getting out of a car? Why would Wisconsin have a law specifically legalizing the act of loading a handgun in a car?

    As for the second article. Is it really normal to "carry hot?" What other saftey features do hand guns have besides the "long trigger pull?"
    I carry the exact same way a police officer carries; one in the chamber. It's legal to do so in Wisconsin; I don't know OR care about Florida law, since I don't live, or travel there. My grand daughter wears "clips" in her hair; not sure what that has to do with handguns, however.
    Liberty or death. We're sorry, there are no other options available at this time..........
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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by >The_Liberal< View Post
    <snip> That said, I read the gun facts file and it doesn't specifically address how carrying a gun makes someone safer. Could I ask the rest of you why it's better to be walking around with loaded semi-automatic handguns when it seems to be more dangerous to do so?
    I do not have the burden to prove that the lawful carry of a properly holstered handgun, my right under the law and constitution, makes me safer.

    My right(s) and their lawful exercise require no justification, this is a liberal construct. Thus the vast majority of liberals are anti liberty. Liberals detest liberty, and liberals detest individual self determination. Liberals work very hard to impugn liberty, to criminalize the lawful exercise of liberty, and to demonize citizens who work equally hard to preserve and restore liberty.

    Liberals have the burden to prove, that they infringing upon my right, makes them safer.

    Quote Originally Posted by >The_Liberal< View Post
    <snip> This seems a little strange that someone can have the right to shoot another person to death, but what of Mr. Zimmerman chambering a round before getting out of his car? First, why would someone put a round in their chamber if they already have 7 in their clip? Is it normal for someone to chamber a round before getting out of a car? Why would Wisconsin have a law specifically legalizing the act of loading a handgun in a car?

    As for the second article. Is it really normal to "carry hot?" What other safety features do hand guns have besides the "long trigger pull?"
    Information is readily available on the operation of firearms. Do your own research, don't take anyone on the Interwebs word for it. Also, research the applicable laws in your state regarding firearms and self defense and then act accordingly.

    I do not have a right to shoot anyone. I have a right to defend myself. If I shoot someone while exercising my right to defend myself I may be found justified in infringing upon the thug's right to life. Meaning, just as GZ did, I can walk if a jury accepts my justification.

    Welcome to OCDO.

  12. #12
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    I do not have the burden to prove that the lawful carry of a properly holstered handgun, my right under the law and constitution, makes me safer.

    My right(s) and their lawful exercise require no justification, this is a liberal construct. Thus the vast majority of liberals are anti liberty. Liberals detest liberty, and liberals detest individual self determination. Liberals work very hard to impugn liberty, to criminalize the lawful exercise of liberty, and to demonize citizens who work equally hard to preserve and restore liberty.

    Liberals have the burden to prove, that they infringing upon my right, makes them safer.

    Information is readily available on the operation of firearms. Do your own research, don't take anyone on the Interwebs word for it. Also, research the applicable laws in your state regarding firearms and self defense and then act accordingly.

    I do not have a right to shoot anyone. I have a right to defend myself. If I shoot someone while exercising my right to defend myself I may be found justified in infringing upon the thug's right to life. Meaning, just as GZ did, I can walk if a jury accepts my justification.

    Welcome to OCDO.
    The OP is a liberal. He is racking up posts that he can then use, out of context, to further his anti-liberty agenda. Liberals enjoy the right to free speech, and as long as they confine themselves to the forum rules the "freedom" to speak here on OCDO. The OP has been tested by the staff and management and was found lacking. He, as all liberals must do, continues to do whatever he can to advance his anti-liberty and anti-citizen agenda.

    The OP is far more than a mere troll.

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    Regular Member Plankton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burl View Post
    However, the Kel-Tec P-32 has an optional belt CLIP. Handguns can be associated with "clips".
    Not in the improper context it was used. Reading IS fundimental.
    Liberty or death. We're sorry, there are no other options available at this time..........
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    Regular Member Plankton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burl View Post
    Hooray spelling Nazi!
    Liberty or death. We're sorry, there are no other options available at this time..........
    "Safety is the new Liberty, and recklessness is the new Freedom, and alcoholism is the new Doug Huffman."

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME
    The OP is a liberal.
    ... The OP is far more than a mere troll.
    Indeed. It is one of the dozen or so fake accounts by the same person, who has been banned under both of his original accounts, and pretty much every fake account since then.
    So now we have at least 2 and perhaps 3 of his accounts replying to each other on this thread.
    Quit feeding the troll.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by >The_Liberal< View Post
    Grapeshot,
    In this type of open forum it is impossible to censor someone. I could always come back. I'd also like to know why this post doesn't count as LEO bashing. On the other hand if I did offend any police out there I do apologize for it.

    MKEgal, would you please clarify how you interpret "automatic pistol" from the previous discussion I'm seeing a couple different definitions out on the internet.

    That said, I read the gun facts file and it doesn't specifically address how carrying a gun makes someone safer. Could I ask the rest of you why it's better to be walking around with loaded semi-automatic handguns when it seems to be more dangerous to do so?
    First of all, it isn't "cop-bashing" to point out specific, factual police actions which suggest a need for reform. (Do you deny there is a need for reform in American policing?)

    Strictly speaking, an "automatic" weapon continues to fire as long as the trigger is held. A "semi-automatic" fires once for each pull of the trigger (as opposed to guns like revolvers which require you to perform some other action to fire subsequent shots). This is confused by the fact that, historically, companies advertised guns as "automatic" which we would today call "semi-automatic". Some folks prefer to explicitly differentiate "semi-automatic" from "fully-automatic" ("semi-auto" and "full-auto") to avoid ambiguity.

    Finally, you ain't a liberal. You're an anti-liberal progressive. Big difference. (Go ahead, look up the word "liberal" in a dictionary.) A true liberal would be satisfied by something being a right, and wouldn't first need to be convinced that it's "safer". Sometimes freedom is valuable for reasons other than "safety". A liberal wouldn't need to have this obvious fact explained to him.

    Why is it safer to be armed? Well, it's simple. Armed folks tend to be aware of their responsibility, so they are unlikely to start confrontations (knowing it's very difficult to claim self-defense if you aren't squeaky-clean prior to a shooting). And other folks tend to avoid starting confrontations with someone they know to be armed.

    So, by being armed one can reduce the likelihood of a confrontation, and one can be justifiably confident one has the ability to walk away from a confrontation should it be brought to you.

    Fairly simple, I should think.
    Last edited by marshaul; 07-17-2013 at 06:48 PM.

  17. #17
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    The OP is a liberal.
    This is a perfect example of the kind of person who does not deserve to sit on the moral-high horse of having co-opted the term "liberal".

    He ain't no liberal.

  18. #18
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    I'm curious if the OP has any reason to suspect that Zimmerman loaded his gun after seeing Trayvon, as opposed to having had it loaded the whole time (as is common practice).

  19. #19
    >The_Liberal<
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    Thank you for your responses. Please let me respond.

    Quote Originally Posted by Plankton
    My grand daughter wears "clips" in her hair; not sure what that has to do with handguns, however.
    Clips hold bullets. Don't they?

    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME
    Liberals detest liberty, and liberals detest individual self determination.
    Nonsense. Sometimes restrictions can improve liberty. With 32,163 gun deaths a year in the U.S. we can certainly improve liberty with some gun restrictions.

    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME
    Information is readily available on the operation of firearms. Do your own research, don't take anyone on the Interwebs word for it.
    I tried that. I seem to have different sources than OCDO. Like with Automatic pistol.

    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal
    Indeed. It is one of the dozen or so fake accounts by the same person, who has been banned under both of his original accounts, and pretty much every fake account since then.
    So now we have at least 2 and perhaps 3 of his accounts replying to each other on this thread.
    Quit feeding the troll.
    Let me take the time to deny this. I have only posted using this account. There is another one, but nothing posted with it yet. It's set aside to resist censorship. If this account is banned by a moderator then I'd quickly switch to the dormant one.

    I want to try and get OCDO's understanding of guns. Let me rattle off what I know so far. Just quickly without qualifying it.

    1) I think carrying a firearm will more likely set you back then give you any kind of advantage.
    2) Polymer pistols help criminals take gun through metal detectors by reducing the amount of metal present in the gun.
    3) Clips, strips, and belts hold bullets until they're ready to shoot
    4) A shooter has to reload less often with bigger clips.
    5) Assault weapons can shoot faster than normal guns.
    6) Some bullets are designed to pass through body armor and kill police.
    7) .50 caliber guns were invented to destroy tanks and can certainly shoot down an aircraft.

    There's more, but I'm almost late for work. Please share your thoughts. I'd like to know what it is about guns that matter to you all the most.

  20. #20
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    I'm curious if the OP has any reason to suspect that Zimmerman loaded his gun after seeing Trayvon, as opposed to having had it loaded the whole time (as is common practice).
    This.

    Handguns are designed to be completely handled and used with one hand, if necessary. This is only possible (outside special training and time availability) if they are already loaded, with one in the chamber. This is why nearly all handguns have built-in safeties that prevent a chambered round from firing unintentionally.

    I know of zero law enforcement professionals who would advocate against, or carry without, a loaded chamber.

    Zimmerman would likely be dead if his purely defensive use of a handgun had required him to load it before he could fire.
    Last edited by MAC702; 07-18-2013 at 02:17 PM.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by >The_Liberal< View Post
    ...Clips hold bullets. Don't they?...
    ...
    1) I think carrying a firearm will more likely set you back then give you any kind of advantage.
    2) Polymer pistols help criminals take gun through metal detectors by reducing the amount of metal present in the gun.
    3) Clips, strips, and belts hold bullets until they're ready to shoot
    4) A shooter has to reload less often with bigger clips.
    5) Assault weapons can shoot faster than normal guns.
    6) Some bullets are designed to pass through body armor and kill police.
    7) .50 caliber guns were invented to destroy tanks and can certainly shoot down an aircraft...
    Clips do not feed ammunition in a firearm. Clips are used to load magazines more quickly than without a clip and most shooters do not use clips but just load their magazines by hand. Magazines are the feeding device in the firearm. Even when detachable from the firearm, it is still a magazine, not a clip. At the same time, even when held in place inside the firearm, a clip is still a clip, not a magazine, the M1 Garand en bloc clip for example. That said, I am not pedantic to correct every single wrong use of the word "clip" (or "bullet") though it makes you look ignorant and school by television, but since you asked...

    1) What you think needs to be amended based on facts.
    2) No polymer pistol has any chance of making it through a metal-detector. Commercially-available "polymer pistols" are still mostly steel! They just have SOME polymer parts! Surely you must know this if you know anything other than what you see on TV shows. This has been true since the very first "polymer" HK and Glock pistols and the metal detectors in use at even that time.
    3) I've no idea what your point is here.
    4) Okay. And what is the point? Do you know how long it takes to reload? Do you know how many reloads occurred in the Virginia Tech massacre against unarmed victims?
    5) False. The term "assault weapon" is a legal term that applies to certain semi-automatic firearms with certain cosmetic features. They are no faster than other semi-automatic firearms that are not classified as "assault weapons."
    6) Perhaps, and those designed for handguns are already illegal and were marketed TO police, since body armor in most states is NOT illegal for non-police to own/wear. Nearly all deer rifles are capable of this anyway.
    7) Most .50-caliber guns are weak muzzleloaders, actually, or handguns, but assuming you are specifically referring to the .50 BMG rifle, they can NOT certainly shoot down an aircraft, and can not do so with any greater likelihood than a normal deer rifle.

    If you are serious about dialogue, please research your response before posting things you learned on TV.
    Last edited by MAC702; 07-18-2013 at 02:19 PM.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Quote Originally Posted by >The_Liberal< View Post
    Thank you for your responses. Please let me respond.


    Clips hold bullets. Don't they?


    Nonsense. Sometimes restrictions can improve liberty. With 32,163 gun deaths a year in the U.S. we can certainly improve liberty with some gun restrictions.


    I tried that. I seem to have different sources than OCDO. Like with Automatic pistol.



    Let me take the time to deny this. I have only posted using this account. There is another one, but nothing posted with it yet. It's set aside to resist censorship. If this account is banned by a moderator then I'd quickly switch to the dormant one.

    I want to try and get OCDO's understanding of guns. Let me rattle off what I know so far. Just quickly without qualifying it.

    1) I think carrying a firearm will more likely set you back then give you any kind of advantage.
    2) Polymer pistols help criminals take gun through metal detectors by reducing the amount of metal present in the gun.
    3) Clips, strips, and belts hold bullets until they're ready to shoot
    4) A shooter has to reload less often with bigger clips.
    5) Assault weapons can shoot faster than normal guns.
    6) Some bullets are designed to pass through body armor and kill police.
    7) .50 caliber guns were invented to destroy tanks and can certainly shoot down an aircraft.

    There's more, but I'm almost late for work. Please share your thoughts. I'd like to know what it is about guns that matter to you all the most.
    He keeps 'shooting' himself in the leg. I am REALLY enjoying the liberal mind. .5 cal to shoot tanks????? LOL

  23. #23
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by >The_Liberal< View Post
    Nonsense. Sometimes restrictions can improve liberty.
    Not a Liberal

    Again, this guy doesn't deserve to sit on the moral high horse (even if it's just in his own mind) of having co-opted "liberalism".

  24. #24
    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    "Nonsense. Sometimes restrictions can improve liberty."

    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Ben Franklin

    I think I'll stick with what Franklin said...

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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    Not a Liberal Again, this guy doesn't deserve to sit on the moral high horse (even if it's just in his own mind) of having co-opted "liberalism".
    Welcome to my frustration. Would they tolerate the epithet for Ben Franklin?

    For a long day, follow the question through a (virtual) library. Gutenberg has ten entries authored by Franklin, including his memoirs in two volumes, and many by his contemporaries. The Franklin papers are on-line http://franklinpapers.org

    Of course the question of just what is (a) liberal would have to be resolved. An assignment never made to them is; compare and contrast liberal and progressive.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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