Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 45

Thread: Questionable Sign at East Canton Save-a-lot

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    27

    Questionable Sign at East Canton Save-a-lot

    So can anyone tell me the legality/meaning of this sign? It is somewhat vague. It is posted on a bulletin board about 10 feet inside the store. I walked right past it and a friend whom was with me happen to noticed it. He alerted me to it and there happen to be a manager nearby that heard our conversation. So I said no problem I'll just put it in the car. The manager said I'm sorry that may not be the right sign. I did not question it any further and just put my firearm back in my vehicle. Has anyone spoke with a Save-A-Lot in the past? Should I contact corporate?


    Also has something happened with the forums? My old post about my open carry encounter with Minerva Police seems to be gone?

  2. #2
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Fairborn, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    13,063
    What did the sign say?

    If it was a typical Ohio gunbuster sign, you may not carry. It is supposed to be posted conspicuously, but the lack of conspicuousness will only be a defense against a trespassing charge for someone who does not know it is there. You know it is there. Do not carry in that store.

    Contact corporate. Local management may be violating corporate policy. If corporate policy does not allow carry, respect their choice. I respect that choice by my lack of patronage.

  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    27
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	2013-07-13 08.31.572.jpg 
Views:	256 
Size:	94.4 KB 
ID:	10599

    meant to attatch to first post.
    And yes I did remove my firearm and respect there wishes.

  4. #4
    Regular Member NEOOpenCarry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Akron, Ohio
    Posts
    132
    That is not a gun buster sign. That type of sign is typically found in restaurants that serve alcohol. All it means is that you "may" be breaking the law. The only way you would be breaking the law is if you didn't have you chl in a class d liquor establishment or if you were consuming alcohol while carrying. If you have your chl and are not consuming, this sign (correct me if I am wrong) can be disregarded. It is in my opinion intentionally vague to confuse and keep people from carrying, but that is just my opinion.
    “Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.” - Thomas Jefferson

  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    27
    Quote Originally Posted by NEOOpenCarry View Post
    That is not a gun buster sign. That type of sign is typically found in restaurants that serve alcohol. All it means is that you "may" be breaking the law. The only way you would be breaking the law is if you didn't have you chl in a class d liquor establishment or if you were consuming alcohol while carrying. If you have your chl and are not consuming, this sign (correct me if I am wrong) can be disregarded. It is in my opinion intentionally vague to confuse and keep people from carrying, but that is just my opinion.
    That is what I took it to be. And to clarify, I was open carrying as usual. Though I do have my chl.

  6. #6
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Fairborn, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    13,063

    Questionable Sign at East Canton Save-a-lot

    Yep, have a CHL and don't consume and you are not committing the felony of which the sign speaks. Carry openly or conceal. Just have the license and don't imbibe.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

    <o>

  7. #7
    Regular Member Makarov's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Dayton, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    226
    The signs are meaningless with or without a CCW. Save A Lot stores only sells liquor. No one consumes it in the store. The department of Alcohol enforcement in the state of Ohio gives all their class D liquor permit these signs. They are optional to post if you are selling, but if you are consuming on the premises, then they are mandatory to post. Save a Lot corporate policy is to follow state law. That manager is blowing smoke. Call the Corporation and have them send an email validating their position on the subject of gun carry within the store. The manager may be mistaken for NO GUNS ALLOWED policy for employees, applies to patrons as well.

  8. #8
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Fairborn, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    13,063

    Questionable Sign at East Canton Save-a-lot

    As has been pointed out elsewhere: If you are carrying in a store that sells alcohol for consumption off-premises and you don't have a CHL, if someone walks in drinking (illegally) a beer, you are now committing a felony.

    It is stupid, but that is the way the law is worded. The alcohol being consumed does not have to have been served by the licensed establishment.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

    <o>

  9. #9
    Regular Member Makarov's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Dayton, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    226
    I have never heard of anyone in a grocery store drinking alcohol unless there is a wine tasting contest but if a contest exists, they have a class D permit to sell and consume on premises. That's rare!

  10. #10
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    NE, Ohio
    Posts
    58
    And at a sav-a-lot I highly doubt they are having wine tastings

  11. #11
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Fairborn, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    13,063
    Quote Originally Posted by Makarov View Post
    I have never heard of anyone in a grocery store drinking alcohol unless there is a wine tasting contest but if a contest exists, they have a class D permit to sell and consume on premises. That's rare!
    Just pointing out that if someone thinks that they are legally safe in a grocery store that sells alcohol, but does not allow consumption on premises, they aren't. They aren't even in control of when their behavior suddenly becomes a felony.

    Unlicensed carry in an establishment selling liquor + anyone consuming any alcohol anywhere in that establishment, regardless of source = felony.

    Manager keeps a bottle in his bottom desk drawer. Takes a snort. Felony.

    Drunk with a bottle of Annie Green Springs in a paper bag staggers in. Takes a hit. Felony.

    Hell, a shopper takes a belt of the "cough syrup" she keeps in her purse. Felony.

    Not saying any of these will ever happen. Just that they could, and you are subject to arrest.

    Folks, carry under those conditions at your own peril.
    Last edited by eye95; 07-15-2013 at 08:43 AM.

  12. #12
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    27
    So, I did contact corporate requesting on there clarification of there firearm policy for customers. I received a case # and was told I would hear from someone within 2 business days. I will update when I get a response.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Makarov's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Dayton, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    226
    Eye95. I have never heard of anyone getting arrested under that scenario. Please share the story if you have?
    Last edited by Makarov; 07-15-2013 at 02:40 PM.

  14. #14
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Fairborn, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    13,063

    Questionable Sign at East Canton Save-a-lot

    I have no stories. I just know that that is the way the law is written. Moronic. But reality.

    I also know of no one arrested under the federal GFSZ law. I still ain't gonna be the one to test it.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

    <o>

  15. #15
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    earth's crust
    Posts
    17,838
    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Just pointing out that if someone thinks that they are legally safe in a grocery store that sells alcohol, but does not allow consumption on premises, they aren't. They aren't even in control of when their behavior suddenly becomes a felony.

    Unlicensed carry in an establishment selling liquor + anyone consuming any alcohol anywhere in that establishment, regardless of source = felony.

    Manager keeps a bottle in his bottom desk drawer. Takes a snort. Felony.

    Drunk with a bottle of Annie Green Springs in a paper bag staggers in. Takes a hit. Felony.

    Hell, a shopper takes a belt of the "cough syrup" she keeps in her purse. Felony.

    Not saying any of these will ever happen. Just that they could, and you are subject to arrest.

    Folks, carry under those conditions at your own peril.

    What a fascinating scenario(s) .. please, tell me less

  16. #16
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Fairborn, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    13,063

    Questionable Sign at East Canton Save-a-lot

    Go back to Connecticut, troll.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

    <o>

  17. #17
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Fairborn, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    13,063

    Questionable Sign at East Canton Save-a-lot

    Troll aside, back to the topic.

    I really don't think corporate should be involved since this was not a gunbuster sign, just a warning (that I saw in a pub last night) warning of the real possibility that a carrier could run afoul of the laws regarding carry in a licensed establishment--and they well could, so the warning is quite apt.

    By going to corporate when there is no gunbuster sign, we could prompt them to put one up. If they do, all I have to say is, "Thanks a lot, Bub."


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

    <o>

  18. #18
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    in front of my computer, WI
    Posts
    4,426
    Well, I looked up the statute referenced on the sign: 4301.637(A)
    http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/4301.637
    It has nothing to do with firearms. It's about underage consumption.

    Section B deals with firearms where alcohol is being "dispensed for consumption".
    (B) Every place in this state for which a D permit has been issued under Chapter 4303 of the Revised Code shall be issued a printed card by the division that shall read substantially as follows: "WARNING
    If you are carrying a firearm
    Under the statutes of Ohio, if you possess a firearm in any room in which liquor is being dispensed in premises for which a D permit has been issued under Chapter 4303. of the Revised Code, you may be guilty of a felony and are subject to a term of actual incarceration of one or two years."
    So the alcohol has to be "dispensed", as in poured, provided for consumption.
    Not just a grocery or state store where people buy alcohol, or a grocery where someone is drinking cough syrup or a drunk stumbles in.


    4303.13 - 4303.184 describes / defines "D permit" (links along the right side of the page)
    D-1 may be issued to the owner or operator of a hotel, of a retail food establishment or a food service operation... sell beer for on-premises consumption, kegs for off-premises.

    D2... sell wine and prepared and bottled cocktails, cordials, and other mixed beverages ... either in glass or container, for consumption on the premises where sold. The holder of this permit may also sell wine and prepared and bottled cocktails, cordials, and other mixed beverages in original packages and not for consumption on the premises where sold or for resale

    D2x ... sell beer at retail to drink on premises, and in kegs for off-premises
    D3 ... sell spirituous liquor at retail, only by the individual drink in glass or from the container, for consumption on the premises

    D3a after hours permit
    D3x... sell wine by the individual drink in glass or from the container, for consumption on the premises
    D4 members only club

    D4a "guests of a private club sponsored by the airline company, at a publicly owned airport... at which commercial airline companies operate regularly scheduled flights on which space is available to the public"

    D5 "sell beer and any intoxicating liquor at retail, only by the individual drink in glass and from the container, for consumption on the premises where sold, and to sell the same products in the same manner and amounts not for consumption on the premises as may be sold by holders of D-1 and D-2 permits"

    D5a - o (big mess)
    D6 - allows altered hours for other permits
    D7 - restaurant
    D8 - state store or large grocery store
    Quote Originally Posted by MLK, Jr
    The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort & convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge & controversy.
    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie
    Citizenship is a verb.
    Quote Originally Posted by Proverbs 27:12
    A prudent person foresees the danger ahead and takes precautions.
    The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences.
    Quote Originally Posted by Proverbs 31:17
    She dresses herself with strength and makes her arms strong.

  19. #19
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Fairborn, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    13,063
    2923.121 Possession of firearm in beer liquor permit premises - prohibition, exceptions.

    (A) No person shall possess a firearm in any room in which any person is consuming beer or intoxicating liquor in a premises for which a D permit has been issued under Chapter 4303. of the Revised Code or in an open air arena for which a permit of that nature has been issued...
    To break this law, the following must happen:

    1. You possess a firearm.
    2. You are merely in a premises that has a class D permit.
    3. Someone is consuming.

    There is no mention of the drink having been dispensed in the premises.

    There is an exception for CHL holders who are not consuming and not under the influence.

    So, if you carry without a CHL into a store that sells alcohol and someone takes a belt, from whatever source, you are committing a crime. Not saying that the law will be enforced, just that it is decidedly there in the ORC.

    Like I said earlier. The same sign was in a pub I visited last night. It is not alerting you that carry is prohibited, so I don't recommend contacting corporate as you could prompt them to put up a gunbuster. If you have your CHL, just carry. If you don't have your CHL, carry or don't. Just be aware of the letter of the law.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Suckerspawn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Dayton, Piqua, Ohio
    Posts
    41
    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    To break this law, the following must happen:

    1. You possess a firearm.
    2. You are merely in a premises that has a class D permit.
    3. Someone is consuming.

    There is no mention of the drink having been dispensed in the premises.

    There is an exception for CHL holders who are not consuming and not under the influence.

    So, if you carry without a CHL into a store that sells alcohol and someone takes a belt, from whatever source, you are committing a crime. Not saying that the law will be enforced, just that it is decidedly there in the ORC.

    Like I said earlier. The same sign was in a pub I visited last night. It is not alerting you that carry is prohibited, so I don't recommend contacting corporate as you could prompt them to put up a gunbuster. If you have your CHL, just carry. If you don't have your CHL, carry or don't. Just be aware of the letter of the law.
    Having a CHL sure simplifies some things in my life.
    The only people who should fear, good guys with guns, are bad guys...criminals and politicians included.
    No, I am not a policeman. I am a mercenary praying for peace on Earth.

  21. #21
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Fairborn, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    13,063

    Questionable Sign at East Canton Save-a-lot

    It is unfortunate that a license is required to simplify an act that is purportedly a Right. Rights are not licensed. Privileges are.

    Carry (I don't care about concealment) is a Right. We should be able to carry anywhere we wish without a permission slip (with some very specific exceptions: private property owners have property rights and should be able to restrict any activity they choose, and sensitive areas to which the general public is not routinely allowed and is guarded by armed people, e.g. police armories and Air Force flight lines should not be forced to allow armed guests).


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

    <o>

  22. #22
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Stark County, Ohio
    Posts
    49
    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Just pointing out that if someone thinks that they are legally safe in a grocery store that sells alcohol, but does not allow consumption on premises, they aren't. They aren't even in control of when their behavior suddenly becomes a felony.

    Unlicensed carry in an establishment selling liquor + anyone consuming any alcohol anywhere in that establishment, regardless of source = felony.

    Manager keeps a bottle in his bottom desk drawer. Takes a snort. Felony.

    Drunk with a bottle of Annie Green Springs in a paper bag staggers in. Takes a hit. Felony.

    Hell, a shopper takes a belt of the "cough syrup" she keeps in her purse. Felony.

    Not saying any of these will ever happen. Just that they could, and you are subject to arrest.

    Folks, carry under those conditions at your own peril.
    I can see these happening; all it takes is an overzealous prosecutor who is looking for an appointment to a judgeship.

  23. #23
    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    3,726
    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    As has been pointed out elsewhere: If you are carrying in a store that sells alcohol for consumption off-premises and you don't have a CHL, if someone walks in drinking (illegally) a beer, you are now committing a felony.

    It is stupid, but that is the way the law is worded. The alcohol being consumed does not have to have been served by the licensed establishment.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

    <o>
    Your ignorance of the law proceeds you. And your reading of a statute in a vacuum demonstrates that ignorance. The worse part is you are holding out your ignorance as knowledge and wisdom.

    I suggest you reread Ohioans for Concealed Carry, Inc. v. Clyde - paragraph {5} and {9}. http://www.supremecourt.ohio.gov/rod...-ohio-4605.pdf

    {9} Any room or open air arena in which liquor is being dispensed in premises for which a D permit has been issued under Chapter 4303. of the Revised Code, in violation of section 2923.121 of the Revised Code;
    (My emphasise.)

    End of discussion..........

  24. #24
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Fairborn, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    13,063

    Questionable Sign at East Canton Save-a-lot

    Feel free to arrogantly end your part of the discussion. I will continue.

    The only thing that case does to refute what I am asserting that plain reading of the law says is to misstate the law, adding dispense to the law in a place where it does not appear.

    Now, if you could cite a case where a court tossed a conviction because the law must have meant "dispensed and consumed" where it said only "consumed," then I'd defer to you.

    But, instead, it seems that you'd prefer to behave (again) like an ass.

    Folks, read the law. Read this ruling. While it does misstate the law, it does not change it.

    If you trust His Arrogance, carry in a class D establishment that is not dispensing while you have no CHL. I don't trust him. I'd have more faith in him if he'd argue rationally, rather than like a juvenile.

    Not moving on. Again, he is free to end his participation in the discussion. He doesn't have the arrogant power he thinks he has to end the whole discussion.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

    <o>

  25. #25
    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    3,726
    Quote Originally Posted by Makarov View Post
    The signs are meaningless with or without a CCW. Save A Lot stores only sells liquor. No one consumes it in the store. The department of Alcohol enforcement in the state of Ohio gives all their class D liquor permit these signs. They are optional to post if you are selling, but if you are consuming on the premises, then they are mandatory to post. Save a Lot corporate policy is to follow state law. That manager is blowing smoke. Call the Corporation and have them send an email validating their position on the subject of gun carry within the store. The manager may be mistaken for NO GUNS ALLOWED policy for employees, applies to patrons as well.
    (My emphasise.)

    The term "shall" does not always imply mandatory. The context in which it is used determines its meaning. ORC 4301.637 makes clear that there is no punishment for not posting. And the statute makes it clear no punishment "shall" be imposed.
    No person shall be subject to any criminal prosecution or any proceedings before the division or the liquor control commission for failing to display this card. No permit issued by the division shall be suspended, revoked, or canceled because of the failure of the permit holder to display this card.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •